[BTS] Random (Sitting) Bull game

[Pangaea]

Joining that discussion as well:

Spoiler :

I played similarly, and decided to try an Ele-pult attack before I knew the land to the west was that great. But while I was teching and building up a force, Ragnar got Construction (very early) and a pile of Chariots and HAs. Then he found metal and started adding Swords. Took forever for a religion to spread (apparently Mehmed founded Judaism), but it only spread to him and not me. Might have got him to Pleased with a different tech path, especially if going for Monarchy myself. But it would still have been a matter of time before he declared. It's his way

In hindsight it might certainly have been better to just peacefully expand, and defend when Ragnar declared. But elepulting is also rather fun, and with elephants available and no copper in sight, it felt like a fairly natural move given the scenario. Took a while to get the economy out of the hole, but have got CS and Buro now (almost 500AD though), so it should be okay now, and I can start to fill out that juicy land to the west. Also, Nidaros is a killer city!

In my game Ragnar settled on that island to the east, but the stupid git started on a worker right away. That meant it never grew, and was auto-razed when I took it

Not often you get maps with so much splendid land to expand into, easily blocked off from the AI. So I'm sure different approaches would yield very good results. But this is what I like about playing Immortal. You can do stuff like this, perhaps poor choices compared to optimal play, but still get away with it because the AI won't have Infantry by the time you get the economy out of the hole.

@Undefeatable, did you have to raze many cities? In my game Ragnar settled several cities in the tundra, in addition to one up north for metal, so I had to raze all three, in addition to the unfortunate auto-raze on the island. See you got that very nice barb city in the west as well. Sometimes they play nice

 

[Fish Man]

Joining that discussion as well:

Spoiler :

I played similarly, and decided to try an Ele-pult attack before I knew the land to the west was that great. But while I was teching and building up a force, Ragnar got Construction (very early) and a pile of Chariots and HAs. Then he found metal and started adding Swords. Took forever for a religion to spread (apparently Mehmed founded Judaism), but it only spread to him and not me. Might have got him to Pleased with a different tech path, especially if going for Monarchy myself. But it would still have been a matter of time before he declared. It's his way

In hindsight it might certainly have been better to just peacefully expand, and defend when Ragnar declared. But elepulting is also rather fun, and with elephants available and no copper in sight, it felt like a fairly natural move given the scenario. Took a while to get the economy out of the hole, but have got CS and Buro now (almost 500AD though), so it should be okay now, and I can start to fill out that juicy land to the west. Also, Nidaros is a killer city!

In my game Ragnar settled on that island to the east, but the stupid git started on a worker right away. That meant it never grew, and was auto-razed when I took it

Not often you get maps with so much splendid land to expand into, easily blocked off from the AI. So I'm sure different approaches would yield very good results. But this is what I like about playing Immortal. You can do stuff like this, perhaps poor choices compared to optimal play, but still get away with it because the AI won't have Infantry by the time you get the economy out of the hole.

@Undefeatable, did you have to raze many cities? In my game Ragnar settled several cities in the tundra, in addition to one up north for metal, so I had to raze all three, in addition to the unfortunate auto-raze on the island. See you got that very nice barb city in the west as well. Sometimes they play nice

Spoiler :

Yes, very nice of those barbs to found that city for me. I might even let them develop it a bit before taking it .

I still am sticking to the opinion that it wouldn't have been better or more optimal to peacefully expand, because of the Ragnar threat. If you wanted to avoid getting taken over but also wanted to avoid waging an offensive war, I reckon you'd have to constantly spend a lot of time building archers and then longbows throughout the entire game, at least until religions come into play. And even then, don't even think about switching away from hereditary rule. That's a far bigger hammersink than a couple of elepaults and then pretty much 0 military for the rest of the game, IMO. Founding five cities west would've ended up costing me about the same in maintenance as taking his five cities, anyhow - and Ragnar had also improved quite a bit of his tiles for me as well as built infrastructure, which is also nice. He only built one crappy tundra city which I had to raze.

Additionally...in the long run, land equals power (that's what you told me, right?), and having an entire continent to myself is certainly better than having half a continent, even if I have to make some short-term sacrifices to get there.

{/SPOILER]

 

[Fish Man]

Joining that discussion as well:

Spoiler :

I played similarly, and decided to try an Ele-pult attack before I knew the land to the west was that great. But while I was teching and building up a force, Ragnar got Construction (very early) and a pile of Chariots and HAs. Then he found metal and started adding Swords. Took forever for a religion to spread (apparently Mehmed founded Judaism), but it only spread to him and not me. Might have got him to Pleased with a different tech path, especially if going for Monarchy myself. But it would still have been a matter of time before he declared. It's his way

In hindsight it might certainly have been better to just peacefully expand, and defend when Ragnar declared. But elepulting is also rather fun, and with elephants available and no copper in sight, it felt like a fairly natural move given the scenario. Took a while to get the economy out of the hole, but have got CS and Buro now (almost 500AD though), so it should be okay now, and I can start to fill out that juicy land to the west. Also, Nidaros is a killer city!

In my game Ragnar settled on that island to the east, but the stupid git started on a worker right away. That meant it never grew, and was auto-razed when I took it

Not often you get maps with so much splendid land to expand into, easily blocked off from the AI. So I'm sure different approaches would yield very good results. But this is what I like about playing Immortal. You can do stuff like this, perhaps poor choices compared to optimal play, but still get away with it because the AI won't have Infantry by the time you get the economy out of the hole.

@Undefeatable, did you have to raze many cities? In my game Ragnar settled several cities in the tundra, in addition to one up north for metal, so I had to raze all three, in addition to the unfortunate auto-raze on the island. See you got that very nice barb city in the west as well. Sometimes they play nice

Sorry for double-post, but new update, and I (possibly) require assistance.

Spoiler :

I thought my win was all but assured after finishing off Ragnar (this isn't deity, how bad could it be), but it seems I was wrong. Now I'm at a crossroads, and my indecisiveness has cost me dearly. Well, not really, at least not for now, because it's about 1100 AD and I'm trucking along fine at 600 bpt...but Mehmed has more. And also he's constantly trying to kill me. He's already declared once but due to my keen foresight I narrowly fought that off. However, with knights and maces and trebs, I don't think it'll be possible to repel another invasion of similar magnitude.

If I keep on my own continent I highly doubt I can out-tech anyone with more than 15 cities, but if I invade I'll cripple my already fragile economy. And what's more, because I had pursued the tech path and build order for a peaceful builder's game up to this point (universities before forges, even), I'll be hard-pressed to tech MT and whip cuirassiers in time before rifles. At this point I'm strongly considering re-rolling a couple dozen turns and going straight for cuiras instead of dillydallying around with printing press and at the same time half-a**ing for astronomy or whatnot.

The good thing is, if I cap Mehmed, my win will be all be assured. I know how to vassal-tech with him, and I'll be able to get an SV quickly no problem, short of some AP shenanigans (but this is a very archipelago-like map, so unlikely).

I think what I'll have to do is reroll to before I build unis, then build forges instead. Afterwards, lib nationalism, research MT, trade for any filler techs, and then go crazy with cuiras. If I can get drama and build globe theater, I can whip Nidaros to **** and back, considering it has so many food resources (though Mehmed did steal my crabs with a GA culturebomb, another reason he needs to die). Is drama even worth it though, considering the massive detour...

I guess it's time for me to ditch science/peaceful teching and development and once again go postal. This is not monarch difficulty anymore, though - it's immortal, and if I want to win, I'll have more sacrifices yet to make.

What do you think?

(Also, misc question, BTW: if you bulb a tech and the beaker cost is less than the beakers you get from the bulb, where do the extra beakers go...do they disappear, or overflow into next selected tech, or overflow into next tech eligible for bulbing, or overflow randomly?).

 

[Pedro78]

@Pangaea I understand your point of view, I just wanted to point out that an elepult rush isn't optimal in that case. Not questionning the fact that it's more fun than peaceful development

@Undefeatable I see a lot of room for improvement in your save, but from this point you can win the game any way you please

Spoiler :

You've got 13 cities, 600bpt and are ahead in tech. Still have more land to expand into. From there you can probably just go space and win the game, or go cannons + Astro and take over the world. Should be your first immortal win

Several things could be better though...

- You should've settled the whole island by now, what have you been doing for all these years?

- Cahokia should be at least size 18-19 and working towns all over the place. If you're gonna build Oxford, you want a city that puts out 400+ bpt and not only 200. You don't have to build the Taj in your capital, several cities could have better production / chopping.

- I would have razed that horrible barb city to the West and settled two instead, grabbing the copper + the gold.

- Why did you settle Spiro here? It has no food, no gold... nothing ! You shouldn't settle cities like that until the very late game when you have Biology + SP workshops.

- You've only got 3 GS for the whole game ! Being PHI + having marble you should have got easily 6-7 by now if not more.

Hope this points you in the right direction

Edit : Oh and overflow beakers from bulbs are simply wasted

 

[Fish Man]

@Pangaea I understand your point of view, I just wanted to point out that an elepult rush isn't optimal in that case. Not questionning the fact that it's more fun than peaceful development

@Undefeatable I see a lot of room for improvement in your save, but from this point you can win the game any way you please

Spoiler :

You've got 13 cities, 600bpt and are ahead in tech. Still have more land to expand into. From there you can probably just go space and win the game, or go cannons + Astro and take over the world. Should be your first immortal win

Several things could be better though...

- You should've settled the whole island by now, what have you been doing for all these years?

- Cahokia should be at least size 18-19 and working towns all over the place. If you're gonna build Oxford, you want a city that puts out 400+ bpt and not only 200. You don't have to build the Taj in your capital, several cities could have better production / chopping.

- I would have razed that horrible barb city to the West and settled two instead, grabbing the copper + the gold.

- Why did you settle Spiro here? It has no food, no gold... nothing ! You shouldn't settle cities like that until the very late game when you have Biology + SP workshops.

- You've only got 3 GS for the whole game ! Being PHI + having marble you should have got easily 6-7 by now if not more.

Hope this points you in the right direction

Edit : Oh and overflow beakers from bulbs are simply wasted

Spoiler :

I backtracked a bit and decided to completely pursue the peaceful path. Literally won the economics race by 1 turn; libbed printing press because trade bait and also was paranoid someone was going to steal lib from me. Also quite handily won the physics and communism races. Now I'm a good 5-6 techs ahead of the next guy. Probably won't be sub-t300, but beggars can't be choosers. I'm sooo close, I can almost taste it...

PS: there's no coal on this continent anywhere :/

 

[Fish Man]

@Pangaea I understand your point of view, I just wanted to point out that an elepult rush isn't optimal in that case. Not questionning the fact that it's more fun than peaceful development

@Undefeatable I see a lot of room for improvement in your save, but from this point you can win the game any way you please

Spoiler :

You've got 13 cities, 600bpt and are ahead in tech. Still have more land to expand into. From there you can probably just go space and win the game, or go cannons + Astro and take over the world. Should be your first immortal win

Several things could be better though...

- You should've settled the whole island by now, what have you been doing for all these years?

- Cahokia should be at least size 18-19 and working towns all over the place. If you're gonna build Oxford, you want a city that puts out 400+ bpt and not only 200. You don't have to build the Taj in your capital, several cities could have better production / chopping.

- I would have razed that horrible barb city to the West and settled two instead, grabbing the copper + the gold.

- Why did you settle Spiro here? It has no food, no gold... nothing ! You shouldn't settle cities like that until the very late game when you have Biology + SP workshops.

- You've only got 3 GS for the whole game ! Being PHI + having marble you should have got easily 6-7 by now if not more.

Hope this points you in the right direction

Edit : Oh and overflow beakers from bulbs are simply wasted

Spoiler :

YESSS! My first immortal victory!

It was kinda close. Joao finished 5 SS parts...still not nearly enough to contest my win.

Because my military was composed of leftover elepaults, chariots, and dog soldiers for the entire game, I had a heart attack every time the warhorns flared up...especially with Mehmed so close and Joao constantly plotting.

Overall, a very thrilling experience. Thanks for posting this map, @Pangaea! And thanks to all for the advice.

 

[petersc]

YESSS! My first immortal victory!

Congrats on the victory!

 

[Pangaea]

Would like to check out the spoilers and offer feedback, but need to play further first because I know way too little about the world.

Congratulations on your victory though. It's a great feeling to get your first Immortal win

 

[Pangaea]

Did anybody else play/continue this game?

Truly, sometimes it is hard to fathom....

Not one bleeding hit from the cata? With very good odds, meaning I have better odds at winning every single round, so to then lose every single one..? Beggars belief.

(These three fights were in a row btw)

 

[Fish Man]

Did anybody else play/continue this game?

Truly, sometimes it is hard to fathom....

Not one bleeding hit from the cata? With very good odds, meaning I have better odds at winning every single round, so to then lose every single one..? Beggars belief.

(These three fights were in a row btw)

Oh, yeah, that sucks

A rule I set for myself is...if I attack at 95%+ odds and I lose, and that battle was an important one that could decide the fate of the war, I reroll (I turn new random seed off, so in that case I just don't attack that turn). Of course, which battles are "important" is subjective, but still...general rule of thumb. You may consider this "cheaty" or "immoral", but I kinda need it to stop myself from throwing my computer out the window sometimes.

 

[sampsa]

A rule I set for myself is...if I attack at 95%+ odds and I lose, and that battle was an important one that could decide the fate of the war, I reroll (I turn new random seed off, so in that case I just don't attack that turn).

You don't understand probabilities. That 5% chance has the right to exist and you can't decide to make it equal to 0%. Well, you can, but that is simply cheating.

Also Pangaea's whine gets no sympathy from me. And I mean this in the most empathetic possible way.

 

[Fish Man]

You don't understand probabilities. That 5% chance has the right to exist and you can't decide to make it equal to 0%. Well, you can, but that is simply cheating.

Also Pangaea's whine gets no sympathy from me. And I mean this in the most empathetic possible way.

I do understand that the 5% has the right to exist. However, that does not change that I feel pi**ed off when I lose at 5% odds and that it was a battle that would decide whether or not I would win or lose a war. So I reroll to make myself less angry, and also so that I don't have to throw away an otherwise perfectly good map/game.

 

[sampsa]

I do understand that the 5% has the right to exist. However, that does not change that I feel pi**ed off when I lose at 5% odds and that it was a battle that would decide whether or not I would win or lose a war. So I reroll to make myself less angry, and also so that I don't have to throw away an otherwise perfectly good map/game.

I don't understand. If you have a 5% chance of losing the war, so be it. Try to make it so that losing that fight doesn't mean that you lose the war? Your behavior prevents you from improving, because you blame luck when you should blame yourself. Also, losing is part of playing and I think it's best to just accept that.

 

[Fish Man]

I don't understand. If you have a 5% chance of losing the war, so be it. Try to make it so that losing that fight doesn't mean that you lose the war? Your behavior prevents you from improving, because you blame luck when you should blame yourself. Also, losing is part of playing and I think it's best to just accept that.

The problem is, when I lose a game I didn't expect to, I obsess over it until I beat it and win. I guess I'm way too neurotic and obsessive for my own good.

And also, I do blame myself (in fact, I also have an unhealthy history of blaming myself...not gonna go into that here). But that doesn't change the fact that I'm mad when things don't go my way and I believed my expectations were reasonable, and until I do something to rectify the situation I can't become not mad. It's a matter of pride and perfectionism, not rationality.

 

[sampsa]

Well, I guess you have identified the problem. Now you just have to deal with it. I also have a very close friend who fits into "neurotic and obsessive"-category and that has halted his improvement.

 

[Fish Man]

Well, I guess you have identified the problem. Now you just have to deal with it. I also have a very close friend who fits into "neurotic and obsessive"-category and that has halted his improvement.

You know, the only game in which I don't have a problem with rerolling is FTL - and that's because that game pretty much forces you to keep just one save (and because I learned to mitigate the effects of RNG there much better, considering how that's literally one of the core mechanics). The problem is, civ is a game with much more time and emotional investment per playthrough than FTL, so I get significantly more attached to results and more angrier and obsessive when things go south.

 

[elitetroops]

You know, the only game in which I don't have a problem with rerolling is FTL - and that's because that game pretty much forces you to keep just one save (and because I learned to mitigate the effects of RNG there much better, considering how that's literally one of the core mechanics).

Play some HoF games that don't allow reloading and you'll learn to deal with the effects of RNG in Civ4 as well.

 

[Xpl]

Hax0r Darius from TMIT (make more videos pls!!!) is my favourite example of getting screwed over at rediculous odds to come back and crush RNG.

 

[Pangaea]

Something very odd happened in my game, that I don't recall occurring before. Anybody know why this gold tile is covered in my culture? It's not supposed to be according to the culture view, and borders haven't expanded yet.

 

[Windsor]

Something very odd happened in my game, that I don't recall occurring before. Anybody know why this gold tile is covered in my culture?

All the surrounding tiles are within your borders so they auto-expand to fill the gap.