Rat 24 - AWE Training Game

[TheOverseer714]

Do we want Copernicus? I am halfway through my turn-set, and we can get it in 10 turns at Greebley River. Or is that a pre-build for Smith's? I have Universities going in most core cities and working on getting jungles chopped, roads built, swamps drained, etc. All is well and very, very quiet. Now I know why most AW's are done on Pangaeas.

 

[ThERat]

Do we want Copernicus? I am halfway through my turn-set, and we can get it in 10 turns at Greebley River. Or is that a pre-build for Smith's?

It was meant as a prebuild for Smiths as I think those science wonders do not really boost our research relative to the number of cities and scientists we employ

 

[TheOverseer714]

I played my turn-set, and big yawner it was I got Education from the GLib and self-researched Astronomy and Physics and neither were at a deficit. Almost all core cities are building Universities and if we chose to rush them, we have a nice bank account to do it with. We had no visits from our overseas "friends", not even a Spanish Boat. Here is the turn-log:

Spoiler :

Pre-flight check: All programs up and running. Looks like my turn-set will be mostly settling, infra building and research. I think as we approach unit limits, we can start retiring our AA units for shields, so we will have mostly Cav’s as MP’s.
Non combat:
Workers 43, 92 slaves
Settlers 2
Military:
Warriors 5
Archers 7
Spears 8
Swords 13
Pikemen 16
Knights 4
Cavalry 13
Galleys 2
Mounted Warriors 7
Medieval Infantry 11
Trebuchets 21
Armies 5(3 Swords, 1 Mounted Warrior, 1 Knight)
Ancient Cavalry 4

Press enter=>

IBT: GLib gives us Education, next is Astronomy. Madrid, worker=>worker, Nanking cavalry=>University, Chengdu galley=>University, Gap Filler Courthouse=>Marketplace, Oka cavalry=>University, Greebley Heights Library=>Marketplace
910 AD: MM taxmen to scientists, we can get Astronomy in 4 at 163gpt with slider at 70%. Founded Akwesane=>cannon. Otherwise, workers working.
IBT: York Library=>University, Namp’o worker=>worker, Ulsan worker=>worker, Pyongsong worker=>worker, Overseer’s Chunk Marketplace=>University, Nevertheless cavalry=>University
920 AD: more workers working.
IBT: London galley=>University, Alleniel Library=>Marketplace, Gmawanda Marketplace=>Library, Paegam settler=>settler. Sumeria finishes Sistine Chapel.
930 AD: Nothing different.
IBT: Madrid worker=>cannon, Shanghai Library=>University, Ice Age worker=>worker, Namp’o worker=>worker, Ulsan worker=>worker, Othniel’s Harbor=>University,
940 AD: Set Science slider to 40%, MM Scientists to Taxmen to cut wasted beakers. Astronomy next turn at 332 gpt.
IBT: We have Astronomy, next is Physics. Seoul, settler=worker, Chondote Courthouse=>Library
950 AD: Founded Tyendenaga=>cannon. MM Taxmen to Scientists, raise slider to 70% to get Physics in 4 at 99gpt.
IBT: Salamanca cavalry=>cavalry, Rat Falls cavalry=>cavalry, Namp’o worker=>cannon, Ulsan worker=>wealth, Pyongsong worker=>wealth
960 AD: Founded Kahnawake=>wealth.
IBT: Taejon worker=>Harbor.
970 AD: Nothing much.
IBT: Beijing cavalry=>University, Seoul worker=>worker, Cattaraugus worker=>wealth
980 AD: No over-run on Physics, so science slider stays at 70%.
IBT: Physics, next is Magnetism, Oil Springs worker=>worker
990 AD: Set science slider at 80% to get magnetism in 4 turns at 62gpt.
IBT: Seoul worker=>worker, Ansar’s Folly settler=>settler, Peninsula Harbor=>Courthouse, Iron Mountain worker=>wealth
1000 AD: Founded Ansars Farm=>wealth

I went (29-2) 1 leader from the 6 or 7 elite battles. Our military has:
Non combat:
Workers 50 native, 103 slaves
Settlers 1
Military:
Warriors 5
Archers 7
Spears 8
Swords 13
Pikemen 16
Knights 4
Cavalry 19
Catapults 4
Mounted Warriors 7
Medieval Infantry 11
Trebuchets 21
Armies 5(3 Swords, 1 Mounted Warrior, 1 Knight)
Ancient Cavalry 4
Galleys 2
Caravels 2

Two screenshots:
And the save:

 

[Ansar]

Woohoo! I got a settler farm named after me!

Rat - Are we like, researching until Magnetism (Galleons) while building up an army?

 

[ThERat]

Personally I wouldn't bother to build so many universities. I rather we have a sizable army of Cavalry.

Since we almost have magnetism, let's go for that and then research banking/economics. I would then churn out lots of galleons and frigates and go after Spain and the other continent.
As I said, we can cash rush an army with the Mil Academy and then easily drop units on the other continent.

 

[ThERat]

I had a look at the save, things look very good.

A hint on MM though. If we fire all those taxmen that are there now and employ scientist instead, we can reduce science to 60% and still get magnetism in 3. The net profit while doing this 60% science is 128gpt, thats more than +6-got than what we currently make. I know MM is tedious but it can yield a lot. There are quite a few citizens on high shields right now in our fully corrupt cities. Re assign them to irrigated grass and he cities will grow faster and employ even ore scientists.

As I said, every second turn, check the MM especially for cities that have grown.

The Roster:
Greebley - on deck
ansar
Othniel
ThERat
TheOverseer714 - just played
gmaharriet - up once back

 

[gmaharriet]

I just got back in town about an hour ago and I've "got it". I'll need some time to review the situation and probably be back with questions.

I know MM is tedious but it can yield a lot.

I rather enjoy MMing, so I'll do that as I check the save. I noticed in the screenies that we're building wealth in several cities, something I almost never do, preferring to build whatever type of arty is available...then skimming workers and settlers as needed from the accumulated shields or allowing the arty to complete.

If there is a preference for Cavs over Unis, should I change the builds where no shields would be lost?

I have very little experience with overseas invasions before transports, infantry, rails and Flight, so I'll need advice on how many galleons we'll need and what mix of units will be sent. I'm assuming most of my turnset will be setting up the next player for invading.

 

[gmaharriet]

I've finished the MMing and came up with Mag in 3 at 60% and +122gpt, but I did change some builds from wealth to either cannon or caravels, so that would probably account for the difference in gpt.

There were 4 Uni builds which could have been switched to Cavs in 1 with no loss of shields, and 4 more that could switch to cavs in 4 to 6 turns. I made no changes to any of those pending advice from trainers. I think it will take several turns to get sufficient boats for transporting our military, so perhaps it would make sense to finish the Unis where the amount of gold for research makes it worthwhile.

Question... I seem to recall an AW game from 2 or 3 months ago where some of you discussed leaving all specialists as scientists and saving the gold from beaker overrun on the final turn of research vs going for a perfect balance between scientists and taxmen on each turn. I believe the decision was all scientists, but I can't locate the disussion now. Would ThERat or Greebley please review this topic so we all know which way to go.

I still need guidance on what mix of units to build in preparation for invasion. I believe for research after Mag, you wanted Banking and Econ next (Smith's from the palace pre-build), then Theory of Gravity to take us into the Industrial Age?

Sorry for so many questions. I've been following the game by reading turnsets, but without being able to look at the save files, it's harder to follow.

 

[ThERat]

I think all you did was right. Maybe we can leave the other unis as they are. I just would like to get a first wave of invaders. We might want many cavs and a few muskets for defense.

I would actually start with Spain and then ship units over.

The research sounds right to me:
magnetism -> banking -> economics -> Theory of Gravity -> steam

Question... I seem to recall an AW game from 2 or 3 months ago where some of you discussed leaving all specialists as scientists and saving the gold from beaker overrun on the final turn of research vs going for a perfect balance between scientists and taxmen on each turn. I believe the decision was all scientists, but I can't locate the discussion now. Would ThERat or Greebley please review this topic so we all know which way to go.

That is correct. Scientists give 3 beakers each while taxmen only give 2. You gain money by being able to reduce the science rate on the last turn before the next tech is done. As you can see in this case, we can research at 60% instead of 80%, that gives us far more money than taxmen could.

 

[gmaharriet]

Maybe we can leave the other unis as they are.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other". Should I swap the ones with cavs due in 1 turn? or just leave ALL the Uni builds as is?

 

[ThERat]

I would swap according to the actual use of the uni. A high commerce city like London will benefit from a university a lot.

I actually looked at the save and would swap Oka (too little commerce), Othniels Iron Fist, Overseer Chunk and Beijing to military. But, use your own judgment.

 

[gmaharriet]

Thank you.

It's getting very late here...almost 6am. I'll begin play tomorrow.

 

[Greebley]

I usually stay with scientists all the way through One could switch some towns to taxmen on the last turn for max benefit, but I think this a bit tedious for the benefit.

The reason for this is as ThERat states, 3 science vs 2 gold. Since gold and science are interchangable via the science slider getting 3 is better than 2.

At least that is how I look at it.

For unis, most science comes from the science farms so I think the benefit of a Cavalry is higher than a uni. A single University may add up to 10-20 a turn science, but that can be peanuts to our whole science budget - but it doesn't really matter that much which we choose in terms of the win.

If we weren't scientific then I would say that 2 Cavs would clearly be better than a uni.

 

[gmaharriet]

Rat24_1000 AD

Turn 0 - Preflight

MM specialists...Mag in 3 at 60% sci and +122gpt. Change towns on wealth to cannon or caravel. Swap Oka Uni to Cav in 1, Othniel's Iron Fist Uni to Cav in 1, Overseer's Chunk Uni to Cav in 1, Beijing Uni to Cav in 6.

IBT - Greek caravel sails into view near Nanking. Othniel's Cav -> Cav, Overseer's Cav -> Cav, Oka Cav -> Musket. Sumeria is building Bach's Cathedral.

1) - 1010ad - Greeks are up Music Theory, down Chemistry. Say hello to them and DOW. Move a few units south to greet them if they should decide to pay us a visit. Mostly worker moves.

Spoiler :

IBT - Greeks sail west. Xinjian Court -> caravel, Caugnawaga court -> market, Gewauga settler -> cannon.

2) - 1020ad - Worker moves. Sci slider lowered to 50%, MM'd for extra tax gold, Mag in 1, +202gpt.

IBT - Magnestism comes in -> Banking in 4. Salamanca Cav -> cav, Canton court -> settler, Liverpool aqua -> galleon, Gap-Filler market -> frigate, Chondote Lib -> cav, Horses Ask aqua -> galleon.

3) - 1030ad - Upgraded boats to galleons. MM'd sci to Banking in 4 at 30%, +301gpt.

IBT - Greeks continue sailing west. IceAge worker -> worker

4) - 1040ad - Worker turns.

IBT - nada. Beijing cav -> cav, Gmawanda lib -> musket

5) - 1050ad - worker turns. Send empty galleon to inspect coast of other continent.

IBT - nada. Military Academy completes in Centralia -> Army in 27, Spanish Corridor settler -> cannon, Sealant uni -> cav, Gano settler - cannon, Greebley Heights market -> musket, Smokin' Hot settler -> cannon. Our people want to improve our Palace, so we now have shrubbery.

6) - 1060ad - more worker turns. Banking due next turn with slider at 0% and only 7 scientists researching, and +587gpt.

IBT - Banking comes in -> Economics in 4 at 40% and +252gpt. Hastings settler -> galleon, Oka musket -> cav, Onnotare cannon -> harbor.

7) - 1070ad - Establish Salty Cow west of Salty Bog -> worker. Establish Rat's Acquarium south of Ansar's Farm -> worker.

IBT - nada. Allegheny settler -> cannon, Rat Falls cav -> cav, Nanking uni -> cav, Othniel's cav -> cav, Overseer's cav -> musket, Nevertheless uni -> cav

8) - 1080ad - Still more worker turns.

IBT - Spanish want to talk....um...no. Gap-Filler frigate - galleon, English Core settler -> cannon, Oil Springs worker -> cannon. The people want to add a wing to our Palace.

9) - 1090ad - Establish Sea View north of Tsingtao -> galleon. Workers working.

IBT - nada. Seoul worker -> cannon, Salamanca cav -> cav, Iron Mountain worker -> settler.

10) - 1100ad - Establish Seaside west of Madrid -> worker. Establish Overseer's River east of Ansar's Farm -> worker. Worker's still working. Economics due next turn at 10% with +441gpt. Current treasury balance is 9,803.

Afterturn notes:
Being still unsure of what units are wanted for the invasion, I just built a lot of cavs, a few muskets, 1 Frigate and started several galleons. One galleon is over near Sumeria, checking out the coastline. Greece found us, but we have not yet found them.

Settlers and workers have been working their way west and northwest, trying to fill in the unsettled areas with specialist farms.

I left many inherited builds unchanged. QUESTION...I'm curious about the temple being built in Silk City in the tundra. I'm guessing it's to expand our borders to reach the whale, but it seems a harbor there would be more generally useful. If the whale actually makes a big difference there, I would be grateful for having my knowledge expanded.

I checked to see what would be the cost of hurrying an Army in Centralia right now, and it's 1,360. I didn't do any upgrades except for 4 boats. If we need more muskets, cannons or boats, we should have enough in the treasury for upgrading or rushing.

I usually stay with scientists all the way through One could switch some towns to taxmen on the last turn for max benefit, but I think this a bit tedious for the benefit.

Since this was the last turn of research for Economics, you will find quite a few taxmen. I know Greebley said it wasn't necessary, but having learned to MM from Bede, I try to squeeze out every schilling. Those who know him well will "get" the humor intended here.

Our core area:

Spoiler :

Our southwest area:

Spoiler :

Sumerian coast:

Spoiler :

And the save...

 

[ThERat]

excellent MM, we really have a ton of cash now and I would actually cash rush an army now. I am sure we can still get ToG at a surplus and then maybe need to go for deficit research in the IA.

I would also try and grab th Spanish land to the south.

The main invasion can start as soon as we have the army filled with 3 Cavs and then sail over. The initial landing party doesn't have to be big as we can scout the area first. We should make a few more frigates as well for out galleons as protection.

The Roster:
Greebley - up
ansar - on deck
Othniel - away till Sep 5th
ThERat
TheOverseer714
gmaharriet -

 

[Greebley]

I was thinking of using a portion cash to get some cav armies like ThERat suggests. This seems a good use for all that gold as cav armies will be able to take out the enemy cities. 3 or 4 for about 4800 gold or 6400 gold?

I got it.

 

[Greebley]

I realize a previous comment was confusing because I got my games mixed up. We are not scientific - so I would choose 2 1/2 cav over 1 university. I am guessing that is why our research is so good though.

Preturn: Rush the Army. Minor build changes. I would also like to start building workers in all cities with stalled growth so they can be ready for rails in not-to-many turns. Looks good though.

I find the urge to hurry our invasion by using some money to rush 2 Galleons, given that we have so much.

I also upgrade some units and start moving the Cavalry for the attack. We have plenty and are just short on the Galleons.

We will start with around 15 Cavalry and some muskets. With an Army on top they won't attack it, but I think I will build a town to compel them to. I can always disband the town if I am being over-run. The primary reason we can do this is due to having the cash for some Armies.

IBT: Nothing happens.

1110 AD: Ok, we have have 4 Galleons with one Army in the initial assault. The rest is Cavalry.
Disband an Archer to rush as second Army. What with the upgrades we are down to 4K already. I start filling them. A settler and Muskets will be coming along soon as well along with more Cavalry and 1 or 2 more Armies.

I think I will start the assault near Tutub.

Note that ToG takes 8 turns at 0% science so our Science farms are providing 1/2 of the beakers we need at this point. We run 40% to get ToG in 4 turns.

IBT: Nada

1120 AD: Rush the last Army. Start loading the second lot of Galleons. There will be 4 more boats (rush 1 to do this). Going for some more Muskets.

IBT: Greeks finish Copernicus. Note that we have 4 turns on Smiths.

1130 AD: Still have a lot of units waiting. Note that the Armies can guard our homeland for the most part, but we also have Muskets from the upgrades, so I can move most Cav for the Assault. This is why I like upgrading units, it frees the most units for the Assault.

The picture below demonstrates my initial assault. I may try keeping a town with this, but I also may have to give it up depending on the response. Given that 16 more units are on their way in 2 turns, with muskets, I think it likely I can take the town and keep it.

Actually, I check and we won't get landings yet as the AI can't cross the ocean. With luck we may have rails before we need to worry about landings. Obsolete units like MDI and Archer with all the 4 unit Armies seem fine for defense. One can play more defensively, but I tend to like the big assaults.

IBT: Of course, the Sumerians start Magellan's the very next turn. Still I think we have enough Armies to be safe.

1140 AD: Land our units.

IBT: We get ToG.

1150 AD: Capture Tatub and our second batch units can land in the city.
Steam in 4 requires 100% science. The Unis did allow us to get Steam faster.
Note that I may replace the city next turn. The Sumerians do have more culture than us and I don't want to keep enough units in it to resist a flip (14 or so?).

IBT: Some Ottoman units advance at us. Nothing worth worrying about.

1160 AD: Actually the town comes with Barracks. That may be worth keeping. We can starve it down quick and all resistance is suppressed already...

Kill 6 units in Aydin. Kills all but 1 Archer in a stack of Ottomans. One Cav becomes Elite. 5 Galleons are filled (4 from first landing + 1 more). Not building any more Galleons.

Decide to go for another Army rushed. We are down to 17K.

IBT: Greek ship spotted. We have 2 armies nearby.

1170 AD: Our one Elite unit gets a leader. Another Army of course.
Aydin is Razed. We also move to Suza to attack. A nice choke there of only 2 squares.
Workers starting to head to nearby towns for Rails if we have coal.

IBT: Only minor troop movement. No attacks. Spot a Sumerian boat.

1180 AD: 2 Armies are close enough to each boat to cover and kill any landings.
Capture Suza, land some units from a Galleon and head south with the Army.
17 more units land. Some Cav are for the Armies.
We find the Ottomans last City.

So now we have 5 Armies on the far continent. I made them size 4 BTW as this is the main continent. Kind of looks like central America. We have 2 Armies to the North, one near the Ottomans, one healing (will head south) and one South. Additional cavalry will join a stack north or south if no units are spotted. We have sufficient Muskets in the town to handle any attacks.

Note that we have enough Muskets and the AI units are primitive enough we can start expanding. I think we will want to go for domination as Marines are far away.

IBT: We get steam which obsoletes Hanging Gardens. I cycle ahead to stop mass riots.
Ottomans built a new town.

1190 AD: We have two coal but no Iron Works. I hope to build a new resource city on the other continent to handle the unhappiness issue too many good cities are using Scientists.

I decide to capture Kutallu (Sumerian to the South). We haven't seen any fast units yet. I may still abandon later though.

Also capture Nagsu (Sumerian to the North).

Capture Izmit (Ottomans) and autodestroy Antalya. Fledgling Ottomans have been Destroyed

Tatub rushes a Harbor - It has been starved to size 1 so is immune to flip with 2-3 units in it.

IBT: Greeks land a whole Archer. Eek.
Spot a Greek Knight

1200 AD: Elite Archer kills 1 hp landed Archer after bombardment
Lose our first unit. An Elite Cav to a Crusader. Capture Eretria.
Lose a cav trying to take Uskadar. It is down to Longbows.

Notes:
Nagsu may have a really small chance of deposing us as I don't think it has enough units to completely suppress resistance. The Army has 1 movement point left if you don't want to risk it to even a small chance.

Eretria and Kutallu also have a chance to depose, but there is little at risk - 2 muskets and cannon in Kutallu. I sometime put units just outside a city so I risk nothing - up to you, but at least 1 unit to suppress resistance and then starve them is a good way to do it.. Alternatively, we have some settlers over there so all 3 towns could be disbanded. It is a trade-off. Disband and we definitely lose 3 settlers building new cities. Or risk a Musket and starve the towns.

We got a new resource so I tried to MM for that so things are pretty good.

I have tech set to going straight to RP

We are now almost out of cash. Upgrades and 4 armies was pricey, but I think it was the best use of the money.

 

[ThERat]

wow, nice progress...we are in mop up mode already and I doubt the game will even come back to me

I agree with cash rushing armies. Maybe even going for Smiths was a waste of time I actually expected more resistance than this. Must be that our apprentices have played very well

so, Ansar, can you play this round?

The Roster:
Greebley
ansar - up
Othniel - away till Sep 5th
ThERat
TheOverseer714
gmaharriet -

 

[Ansar]

I want to play this round! Turns look exciting!

(It'll take some time though - with moving so many units.)
I'm not good with MM, what should I be looking for? (Like, besides stopping riots).

Got it.

 

[gmaharriet]

I'm not good with MM, what should I be looking for? (Like, besides stopping riots).

Checking all your cities every 1 or 2 turns, especially the science farms. When those towns grow, the governor will put the new citizen on a high-shield tile, when it should be on a high-food tile or turned into a scientist.
Make certain there are no entertainers as specialists if possible.

If your corrupt sci farms are producing workers or setters, try to match the production to the same turn as growth...not always possible, but worth looking for.

Check your more productive cities to see if they can be MM'd for an extra shield or two to produce a unit one turn faster. Also look for MMing for more gold or growth if it won't reduce the build time.

Make sure your workers are improving tiles that are needed by the towns, not just working to be just "doing something".