RB4 - Desert Runner

Hi.

Snaproll said:
Remember the +1 trade routes add to commerce, which will make almost no difference in gpt. Courthouses add directly to your gpt. (I'm pretty sure I'm right about that, but not 100%)
I think you are right, but then I'm not exactly sure what the practical differences are. +commerce means higher beaker output, +gold means we can sustain a higher research rate - won't that be the same in the end? :confused: And because the +1 trade routes will be in effect in every city immediately, I prefer currency most of the time.

I'm really confused about the practical difference between gold and commerce. :crazyeye:

-Kylearan
 
Kylearan said:
Hi.


I think you are right, but then I'm not exactly sure what the practical differences are. +commerce means higher beaker output, +gold means we can sustain a higher research rate - won't that be the same in the end? :confused: And because the +1 trade routes will be in effect in every city immediately, I prefer currency most of the time.

I'm really confused about the practical difference between gold and commerce. :crazyeye:

-Kylearan

I thikn this is going to take some actual experimentation to really work out. With a courthouse, you are offsetting the maintenance costs of your outlying cities, allowing you to run a higher research rate. With a market, you'll have to run a lower research rate to keep gpt in control, but will be making more science with the rate you are running because of the increased commerce. The extra trade routes seem to push markets ahead of courthouses.

I think the answer is probably "it depends". In our case, I think that tying up our capitol building a market during the expansion phase will hurt us in the long run, whereas building courthouses in our new cities while expanding with settlers and military from our first 2-3 cities will allow us to expand our territory faster, giving us a better long-term position. Of course, once the expansion phase is complete and we can work on infrastructure, a market would be my top priority. And don't forget the added happiness and possible shrine income if we get confucianism.

I think it's probably a win-win. It's good to have these discussions - I'm not at all convinced my take is the correct one. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we get cheap courthouses from our civ traits I'd probably go for currency first as well. I'm always inclined to go for a civ's cheap buildings early - leveraging your advantages and all that.

Great discussion! :goodjob:
 
Commerce splits into gold, science, and culture (with Drama). Commerce comes from trade routes, working tiles, and some buildings (like the capital). Neither a market nor a courthouse affects commerce at all.

Science is very similar to Civ3's model, which I think y'all know well. It gets a chunk of the commerce from the city. Add in specialist beakers. Apply buildings (that order is different from Civ3, though) like library, university, Oxford, etc.. That's the total beaker output of the city.

Gold coins also come from the commerce of the city -- whatever is not used for other things. Add in specialist coins. Add in coins from buildings (only shrines, to my knowledge). Apply buildings (like grocer, market, bank, Wall St.) multiplier. That's the gold production of the city.

City upkeep maintenance cost is an expense for your civ, which is independent of the commerce produced. It depends on your civics (I think), the distance from the capital (or FP/Versailles, probably), number of cities, and some other things. A courthouse will just halve this number, saving your empire gold but not producing any additional commerce.

SO, in this case, Currency helps commerce by providing an additional trade route/city. That's probably 1-2 gold in raw commerce/city, at this stage in the game. I have no idea if you have potential building multipliers or not, but that would play a role (a pretty significant one, actually). Markets themselves, will only help in the portion of commerce that is going to gold -- which I can't determine from any recent screenshots. 25% of that will be added. That's generally pretty insignificant.

Now, courthouses will generally let you run higher science rates, as your total costs will be lower. Lower costs means less % of commerce needing to be put into gold (meaning markets are less valuable).

The question is, will the extra trade routes (suitably increased by buildings) provide more raw commerce than the courthouses will save? That depends on your number of cities, Open Border agreements, upkeep costs, and probably some other things. You'll absolutely need both techs, though. It's just order. Currency's extra trade routes effect is instantaneous, though, while courthouses take a bit to build. Lots of trade-offs and I don't have any kind of answer. I hope this helps clarify the issue a bit, though.

Arathorn
 
Hi,

Snaproll said:
I thikn this is going to take some actual experimentation to really work out.
Have I mentioned how much I look forward to reporting day for Epic 1? :D

Of course, once the expansion phase is complete
I find that I usually have multiple expansion phases. Ususally, I stop expanding after having 3-4 cities, letting them grow and get some infrastructure, before being able to expand more. I then have to stop another time after founding 3-5 more cities, and so on. If I don't do this, my economy is ruined and I get behind in tech (an example of this would be what happened to us in RB3).

and we can work on infrastructure, a market would be my top priority.
In my games, I often end up building markets very late, sometimes as late as the end of industrial age! :eek: Most of the time, there are better buildings (or military) to build IMHO, and markets are very expensive for what they do. When I need +commerce buildings, I often have banking already and build banks instead (happiness can often be improved by trading resources, which I'm doing anyway to get allies).

I think it's probably a win-win. It's good to have these discussions - I'm not at all convinced my take is the correct one.
Agreed. :)

I'm always inclined to go for a civ's cheap buildings early - leveraging your advantages and all that.
Good point, and especially given our spread-out empire, CoL might have indeed been the better choice here.

-Kylearan
 
In that case, you'll be happy to know I did go for CoL before currency :)

Inherited turn: change nothing

600 BC (1) Alex had 2 archers attack Ghuzz ( the barb town), both defenders are now hurt. I give one of our axes a second
city raider promotion and charge in, killing the Garrison archer and gaining 3XP. I could probably charge in with the other one, but that would autoraze the town and after taking a closer look, I prefer to keep it - it controls no less than 4 resources and saves us having to send a settler there. I did consider the comments (its placement is not ideal) but in my opinion, having a good extra city now beats having optimal city placement a hundred turns down the road.
I move the archer out (!) of Arbela hoping to get the barb archer there to get to attack across the river instead of pillaging our ivory.

IT Alas, the archer pillages ivory anyway turning Persepolis, Susa and Pasargadae unhappy.

575 BC (2) Ghuzz grows to size 2, its lone defender is at 2/3 health, our axe charges:



Gandhi will trade monarchy but not fairly. Alex wants us to stop trading with Gandhi. I have to consider this but we want to maintain open borders with him to get religion to spread, so I decline.

550 BC (3) Mathematics comes in, after having read everything over, I decide to go for Code of Laws ( due in 14). I don't expect to found a religion with it, but the gpt we save with courthouses will allow our research to be turned back up, now at 80 but that won't be sustainable.
Susa produces another archer, I have it start on a worker. Persepolis starts on the aqueduct (7 turns).

IT Archer defends against Barb near Arbela and promotes. I hold off on the exact promotion.

525 BC (4) Axe attacks another barb near Persepolis, promotes.

IT Great Lighthouse is built somewhere.

500 BC (5) Tarsus founded along the river to the North (another floodplains / hills city). The reason I founded it there was we want more commerce, mainly, and it ties in well with the rest of the empire. I didn't go for the iron because it's way too far out and we don't have adequate military to guard a settler on a long trip. An alternate choice would have been to send the settler to the South of our capital, but it'll get more commerce on its current spot.
On the downside, we're now at 19 gold and -7 income.

Here's our lands now (screenshot grabbed at last turn, not this turn)



Ghuzz stops protesting and starts a granary.

Trade Alex Monotheism and Mathematics for Monarchy and revolt to Hereditary Rule and Slavery (no harm in the latter).
Interrupt quarry construction and get Arbela's worker back to get ivory online again.

475 BC (6) Turn off growth in Susa.

450 BC (7) Pasargadae Library- Barracks. Arbela Granary - Library.
For want of alternatives, mainly.

IT Confucianism is founded, meaning we aren't first to CoL.

425 BC (8) Pasargadae is unhappy at 7 - I checked only last turn and it had a spare happy face, otherwise I'd have turned off growth.

400 BC (9) No matter, as the ivory is back online ( I don't road it yet , we want the stone online asap now and we don't have the spare military to guard the camp).

3 barbs along our borders: one axe suicides against our axe, another one takes out an archer with first strike in a forest between Susa and Persepolis. Susa's nexly built axe goes to contain it.

375 BC (10) Persepolis aqueduct finishes, Hanging Gardens due in 16 but the stone should be online in 4 turns max (2 remaining on the quarry, 2 for the road.

The road to India is finished, rest is up to them ( stupidly I sent the worker back; we could have had him build a road within Indian borders). One axe from Susa goes North, the other two available Axemen should sweep the Southern area where barbs are still popping up. I suggest to keep Susa on military for MP happiness and antibarb patrols. Other cities should spit out a few more workers when we can. There's a worker to the East of Persepolis which can either chop to aid in Hanging Gardens construction or move and get the gems online for extra happy and growth.

No immediately useful trades presented themselves, though we do want to pick up Sailing if only because it's a prerequisite for Calendar (which we can use for the incense to the East of Tarsus and the dyes to the South of Perse).

And here's the save.

on edit, I forgot to add: the worker to the East of Persepolis can either do some chopping to aidd in Hanging Gardens construction or go and connect Gems. I'd prefer the chopping personally.
 
Things are looking pretty good! It's too bad we didn't get confucianism. However, we are at 60% science making +3 gpt, so some courthouses will help. Our city maintainance is 16gpt (out of 20 total), or 80%. I change Persepolis off of hanging gardens for a couple turns and plan to finish up the worker that's due in two turns. With stone coming online soon, I don't want to spend any turns putting hammers into the wonder until we get the 50% modifier. This is more efficient, overall, but it's at least concieveable this will cost us the wonder, as it will delay completion by 2-3 turns. If that happens, it's completely my fault! Other changes: Susa had a cottage it wasn't working so I switch that. I also make one trade - Peter and Victoria don't have monotheism yet (the others do) so I trade Peter Monotheism for Sailing. We have a -4 from Hatty now for trading with her worst enemy - not sure if that was there before that trade or not!

Turn 1 - 350 BC - Not much - complete a few worker projects (including the quarry, but need to connect it) and move a worker towards persepolis for a chop. The AIs are all on different research paths, and there is probably something I can work with here.


02_Techs.JPG
There would be real possibilities here if the AI would trade anything

Let me use Kylearan's notation for technology trades:
Kyleraran said:
Notation: we have/they have, * means AI won't trade.
:

Alexander: Horseback Riding, Alphabet / Code of Laws*
Louis XIV: Horseback Rising, Priesthood, Alphabet / Calendar*
Victoria: Meditation, Polytheism, Horseback Riding / Currency*

Obviously, we can't do anything yet, but we should keep an eye on this - there are definite possibilities.

BT - The Egyptians ask us to cancel deals with the Greek. Hmm. I'm really not sure what to do here. Peter is confucian, and we have a trade route open to him via our river. Hatty is farther away and already hates us (although mostly because we are trading with Alex). By the way, the only "trade" we have with him is open borders. I decide to maintain open borders with alex, and I tell Hatty to shove it. With any luck confucianism will start to spread to us down the river and we can make a good friend with Alex.

Turn 2 - 325 BC. The worker pops out of Persepolis and then start an axeman, due in 2 turns. As soon as that is done, stone will come online the same turn and I'll start the gardens.. Our axemen in the south don't find any barbs, so I move them back towards our cities. In other news, the Parthenon is completed and Taoism founded this turn.


03_Taosim.JPG
A few important events

Turn 3 300 BC - Our archer successfully repels another barbarian trying to cut off our ivory. Pasargadae finished a barracks. I start another settler there. Now, founding another city will definately put the hurt on financially, but with some cheap courthouses I'm hoping we can keep our heads above water, and in the end, more territory is obviously better.

BT - Alex asks for copper in return for wine. I was just looking at this. We are at the happiness limit in a couple cities, and this would certainly help us. The question is if trading copper to Alex would come back to bite us. I'd still like to cultivate him as a friend, so I make the trade.

Turn 4 - 275 BC - Clearing the forest created 60 shields for Persepolis (are forest shields modified by stone benefits?) and with stone online we only have 6 turns on the hanging gardens!!! And I haven't even spent a single turn working on it yet! We are at 60% now and -1 gold. Can't wait to get courthouses going!


04_60shields.JPG
60 shields on a chop? Was it modified by stone?

Turn 5 - 250 BC - Not much really. Lots of worker actions and military being built.

BT - Hatty converts to Confucianism! Now both of the most powerful AI civs are confucianist. It sure would be nice if it spread to us so we could join in their little pact!

Turn 6 - 225 BC - Things are slow. Waiting on Hanging Gardens and Code of Laws.

Turn 7 - 200 BC - Code of laws comes in , and strangely Taoism spreads in Arbela. We want Confucianism!!! The AI is still totally unwilling to trade any tech, which is unfortunate because we could really pull off some nice ones, I think! With CoL done I start on currency. You know, for markets, and trade routes... Starting a few cities on courthouses.


05_CoL.JPG

Code of Laws comes in, time for some cheap courthouses!
 
BT - Now Ghandi asks us to stop trading with the Greeks! For the same reasons as above amplified by the fact they are supplying us with wine, I refuse. I hope this Greek relationship pays off, because it's sure hurting our relationships with some other civs.

Turn 8 - 175 BC - We kill another barb warrior coming after Arbela - I keep having to move the archer out of the city to keep them from pillaging stone or ivory. I'm sending another archer and an axeman up that way as it seems to be the one that the barbs like to attack the most.

Turn 9 - 150 BC - Troop movement, worker actions. One of my main focuses with the workers has been a road to Arbela for unit movement purposes. Other than that it's quiet.

Turn 10 - 125 BC - Hanging Gardens finished, and we are all set on happiness so that no one gets unhappy (due in large part to the wines from Alex. I have a worker getting ready to hook up gems as well (clearing the jungle now) and the +1 health from the gardens should keep us going. We have strong cities here! Our major problem right now is research rate, but with courthouses available and currency coming in soon I think the growing pains should be manageable. Our military is decent - in fact we have exactly the same number of troops as the average. We have about an archer and an axe in every city.


06_Gardens.JPG
The Hanging Gardens

07_rank.JPG
We are really doing well, especially for Monarch

Notes - There is an axeman on a hill to the south dealing with a barb archer - I expect him to defend next turn. One of the axeman in Pasargadae is there to escort the settler due in two turns. I haven't really thought much about where the settler should go.

We will have to go to 50% science soon, might want to go for it immediately.

We seem to be doing well. We are at the top of the score list on Monarch, and some of that is due to our cultural trait, but we are number 1 in production, number 2 in GNP, Food, Population, and Land size, and number 3 in military. I'm encouraged!

I apologize if there was any weed during these turns. I think I did ok, but I played them a little less carefully than I would have normally. My girlfriend's "sickness" turned out to be an appendicitis, so I'm playing this on my laptop while she's in surgery. Nice that the hospital has WiFi!


08_125BC.JPG
The situation at 125 BC
 
Chops are influenced by the bonuses of the city, yes. A city with a forge will get more hammers from a chop than one without. An IW city will get its bonus, too, for example. Does that make waiting to chop worthwhile? <Shrug> I dunno.

Arathorn
 
Hi,

our situation looks very nice! :goodjob:

The -4 modifier for trading with Hatty's worst enemies had been there already when we met her on my turns. Nothing we could have done about it, and I'm not really sure what happened there. I haven't thought open borders alone could result in a -4 modifier so early? :confused:

I'm curious to see how our "friendship" with Alex will turn out. I had mixed results with him; sometimes he seems to attack out of the blue, so we might want to keep a medium-sized military around, just in case. Trading him copper for a single resource should make him very happy, though.

Hope all went well with your girlfriend's surgery, Snaproll!

Roster:
Kylearan
jameson
Snaproll -> just played
hiob -> UP NOW
dopplex -> on deck
Zeviz

-Kylearan
 
okay....got it and had a look at it but will not play before tomorrow evening

I'm open for suggestions on where to send that settler, in a private game i'd probably send him somewhere southwest of Susa. Furthermore i think we're a bit thin on military and cottages so i'll be working on that. ;-)
 
Hi,

hiob said:
I'm open for suggestions on where to send that settler, in a private game i'd probably send him somewhere southwest of Susa.
I agree that we should found two cities south of Persepolis/Susa. There are several resources and productive lands in short distance to our capital which would be a shame to lose to France or India.

Another priority would be iron IMHO, but that seems to be far away...can it wait a bit longer? Not sure, haven't looked at the game since my turns.

-Kylearan
 
sorry for taking so long.....and sorry for not writing a report now, but i'm in a hurry at the moment.

Basically i did what i said i'd do (build cottages, courthouses and some axeman)
Traded Calendar for CoL with Ghandi and declined going to war with egypt (proposed by alex). Both decisions moved us away from alex and i'm sorry if thats against our gameplan.
Currency came in last round, which allows us to up research to 60% again.
What to research next heavily depends on where we want to go with that game so i left it open to be decided by the next player
 
Hi,

hiob said:
sorry for taking so long
No problem. :)

[...] declined going to war with egypt (proposed by alex). Both decisions moved us away from alex and i'm sorry if thats against our gameplan.
I hate being dragged into a war by an AI, so I think your decision was fine.

Roster:
Kylearan
jameson
Snaproll
hiob -> just played
dopplex -> UP NOW
Zeviz -> on deck

-Kylearan
 
A good question, actually: where do we want to go with this game ? Do we want to go for domination/conquest, space or diplo ( culture is probably out) ? If we go for a military win, who do we conquer ? India and France look like obvious targets, Alex is way out but one should fear the Greeks even when they're bringing gifts anyway (in the game, at least).

I played to a rather late conquest in the GOTM simply because I didn't have a plan in mind; it doesn't seem too early to pick a target victory here.
 
jameson said:
A good question, actually: where do we want to go with this game ? Do we want to go for domination/conquest, space or diplo ( culture is probably out) ? If we go for a military win, who do we conquer ? India and France look like obvious targets, Alex is way out but one should fear the Greeks even when they're bringing gifts anyway (in the game, at least).

I played to a rather late conquest in the GOTM simply because I didn't have a plan in mind; it doesn't seem too early to pick a target victory here.

It's never too early to pick a victory, IMHO. Even this early in the game having a clear focus will make large differences in the style and efficiency of play.

If we do decide to go for war, I think it would be interesting to attack a northern civ first - the whole point of the Oasis map is that the northern side has different available resources than the south, so a civ with control of land on both sides of the desert has a distinct advantage. Logistically it's more difficult with the slow desert movement times and distance from the core, but it might be fun!

We could make that a short term goal and then re-evaluate our strategy depending on the outcome?
 
Hi,

Regardless of what we do, I'd like to befriend at least one of our direct neighbours rather sooner than later. I don't have much experience with Louis yet, is he a similar untrustworthy snake as Napoleon is? Gandhi I know can be trusted more or less, so maybe we should be nice to him.

If we go to war, a northern civ would indeed be interesting and fitting to the scenario, but also stretch our empire awfully long. Still, that would be something I hope to achieve in this scenario. A forbidden palace in the north would be nice in that case.

Regarding our goal for this game, I'm still undecided. I admit I often postpone these decisions until the land-grab phase is over in my games (except when I start a game with a specific goal in mind beforehand). I'm open to everything (except culture maybe), but like to hear Zeviz' and dopplex' preferences first because they are both new to Monarch.

-Kylearan
 
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