T-hawk
Transcend
Smegged will get a chance to trade another round of wines; hopefully we can land a government tech with that.
RBE DSG2 - It's a Small World After All
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
smegged
Psi Cop
Please skip me for this round. I've had some personal stuff come up recently that is taking all my energy and time. Sorry for the inconvenience.
-smegged
-smegged
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
IT 50AD: Civwide push for courthouses. If I were soloing, I'd also choose an FP site at this time, but for now, I leave it.
Early: Connect the fourth Wine and trade it to Iro's for Construction and some change. Whip temple in one of our pressure cities. (The other one, that needs it most, is not in good shape). Train a settler out of Tenochtitlan.
Middle: Old Wine deals expire. Retrade. Wines to Egypt for world map, furs and horseback riding. Wines and a few gold to China for Currency. We're in the middle ages now. China lacks both government techs, though, and all middle age tech, so nothing left on the table is @last-civ, and I hold our fourth wines for our own use for now. Keep in mind, it can be traded to America at some point, though, especially if China gets more tech and drops prices to the basement level. Settler meets ship at the canal city of Teo, boards with elite spear and sails east into Cleo's waters. She registers a protest, and we nod politely but keep sailing.
Late: Triple-whip Z-town's courthouse. Now pulling 3spt over there, and up out of "useless" category, but some unhappy effects are going to linger through the next seventy turns or so. Whip last 20 shields of granary at gold town in the south, and whip partial progress at some other sites. Aqueduct almost done in the capital. Courthouse finished in Teo, almost done in Bapedi.
Our ship leaves the eastern waters of Egypt without any further upset on her part. China has beaten me to the site I wanted by a goodly margin, but there is still one site left to grab. The only site left that I like is the one with the least pressure, the white dot shown below, which would have two tile of second-radius overlap with the northern town. I bet that northern town has possession of a resource, too: rubber or coal. Get what we can get, though, and whip the temple the instant it gets to size 2. China is the one civ with whom we can actually compete in a colonial culture contest.
I went ahead and paid for an Embassy with China. I believe we should buy embassies with the last two civs, also, when we can afford it. No use rushing ahead on tech until we have courthouses, granaries, aqueducts, harbors and markets. Cathedrals are the one thing we might want to slip in there, but otherwise no hurry. I'd even put the embassies on a higher priority than more tech. If Egypt comes for us, we're toast.
Everyone has the world map except America. No use selling it to them until they can pay, either. Other than our total helplessness vs Egypt, we're doing OK. Those wines may make all the difference.
As for FP site, Teo might be a good choice. This, assuming we're likely to be sitting with the territory we have now for a long time to come. We also need workers at Mpondo, preferably its own self-trained variety. Get started on that jungle.
RBE2 Aztecs - 250AD
- Sirian
Early: Connect the fourth Wine and trade it to Iro's for Construction and some change. Whip temple in one of our pressure cities. (The other one, that needs it most, is not in good shape). Train a settler out of Tenochtitlan.
Middle: Old Wine deals expire. Retrade. Wines to Egypt for world map, furs and horseback riding. Wines and a few gold to China for Currency. We're in the middle ages now. China lacks both government techs, though, and all middle age tech, so nothing left on the table is @last-civ, and I hold our fourth wines for our own use for now. Keep in mind, it can be traded to America at some point, though, especially if China gets more tech and drops prices to the basement level. Settler meets ship at the canal city of Teo, boards with elite spear and sails east into Cleo's waters. She registers a protest, and we nod politely but keep sailing.
Late: Triple-whip Z-town's courthouse. Now pulling 3spt over there, and up out of "useless" category, but some unhappy effects are going to linger through the next seventy turns or so. Whip last 20 shields of granary at gold town in the south, and whip partial progress at some other sites. Aqueduct almost done in the capital. Courthouse finished in Teo, almost done in Bapedi.
Our ship leaves the eastern waters of Egypt without any further upset on her part. China has beaten me to the site I wanted by a goodly margin, but there is still one site left to grab. The only site left that I like is the one with the least pressure, the white dot shown below, which would have two tile of second-radius overlap with the northern town. I bet that northern town has possession of a resource, too: rubber or coal. Get what we can get, though, and whip the temple the instant it gets to size 2. China is the one civ with whom we can actually compete in a colonial culture contest.
I went ahead and paid for an Embassy with China. I believe we should buy embassies with the last two civs, also, when we can afford it. No use rushing ahead on tech until we have courthouses, granaries, aqueducts, harbors and markets. Cathedrals are the one thing we might want to slip in there, but otherwise no hurry. I'd even put the embassies on a higher priority than more tech. If Egypt comes for us, we're toast.
Everyone has the world map except America. No use selling it to them until they can pay, either. Other than our total helplessness vs Egypt, we're doing OK. Those wines may make all the difference.
As for FP site, Teo might be a good choice. This, assuming we're likely to be sitting with the territory we have now for a long time to come. We also need workers at Mpondo, preferably its own self-trained variety. Get started on that jungle.
RBE2 Aztecs - 250AD
- Sirian
I don't think there's much likelihood of our being able to get any significant amount more territory for a long while unless we decide to totally forego everything else and bend our civ REALLY far toward war along the wartime-peacetime continuum. That would be another BIG gamble, that we could manage the diplomacy well enough that (a) we don't get squashed for overextending ourselves, and (b) we stay close enough in tech and infrastructure that we don't fall irretrievably behind. It would almost certainly be safer to wait until we have rails and see if there is an appropriate target to gobble at that time.
Accordingly, we should start an FP now and if we need to move our palace later we can do it with a leader rush.
How do you mean our second pressure town is in bad shape? I know it could use a couple more jags to reduce flip potential, and after the temple it will need a harbour for connectivity and food, anything beyond that?
Accordingly, we should start an FP now and if we need to move our palace later we can do it with a leader rush.
How do you mean our second pressure town is in bad shape? I know it could use a couple more jags to reduce flip potential, and after the temple it will need a harbour for connectivity and food, anything beyond that?
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
The silk town doesn't even have control of its full 9. I seriously considered shipping a worker over there to merge into the city to whip. That could still be done, but at this point probably best to wait for the city to reach size 2, then whip. Even for only ten shields.
By comparison, the Egyptian town we are trying to flip is size 5 now and has a harbor. It is certain to build a temple before the silk town, at which point the pressure on the silk town will go from five to seven tiles. Considering that we are "in awe of" Egyptian culture, and the AI's new ability to train or import enough troops to resist flips, I think the odds are more likely that we will lose cities there than win the one we aimed for.
Of course, there is still some small hope: that Egypt has so many cities, and enough closer to their capital than this one, that it lags in production. "Bad shape" is my current assessment. A little luck might swing it the other way, though.
Another possibility is that if we lose a flip, the Egyptians might rebuff the rebels. We'd need some stronger relations for that, although our cooperation vs the Zulu, and our long embassy, did allow our ship to move through with nothing more than a mild token protest.
- Sirian
By comparison, the Egyptian town we are trying to flip is size 5 now and has a harbor. It is certain to build a temple before the silk town, at which point the pressure on the silk town will go from five to seven tiles. Considering that we are "in awe of" Egyptian culture, and the AI's new ability to train or import enough troops to resist flips, I think the odds are more likely that we will lose cities there than win the one we aimed for.
Of course, there is still some small hope: that Egypt has so many cities, and enough closer to their capital than this one, that it lags in production. "Bad shape" is my current assessment. A little luck might swing it the other way, though.
Another possibility is that if we lose a flip, the Egyptians might rebuff the rebels. We'd need some stronger relations for that, although our cooperation vs the Zulu, and our long embassy, did allow our ship to move through with nothing more than a mild token protest.
- Sirian
smegged
Psi Cop
Having such aggressive settlements may actually induce Egypt into sneak attacking us. That's Not Good(tm)
Hmm, reading your report on the India game, it seems that trying to flip that one Egyptian town might not have been such a good move. 
Well, if it works, great, we just have to hope we don't get sneak attacked. 
I suppose if it looks like we might get sneak attaked, we can give them our nothern pressure city, cut our losses, and see if that encourages them to call off the dogs...
Incidentally, Architect, whazzup?
Well, if it works, great, we just have to hope we don't get sneak attacked. I suppose if it looks like we might get sneak attaked, we can give them our nothern pressure city, cut our losses, and see if that encourages them to call off the dogs...
Incidentally, Architect, whazzup?
T-hawk
Transcend
Take your time; I won't be able to play till late Saturday.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Zed: Regarding the pressure settlements: it's a done deal. I'd rather take our chances with it than backpedal. There is the chance that the Egyptian town will flip to us, and in the mean time, we'll have the silk once we get connected, by land or sea. If the option to MPP with Egypt comes up, though, we might decide to take our chances with it, even if that puts us in the Iro crosshairs. Remember that in Epic 12, I went back later to test, and found that if I had bought MPP with the Aztecs, they would have attack England first. Just something to keep in mind. One other thing to keep in mind: all game long that game, the Aztecs were the only ones who had their own spices. This game is different: we have all the wines, and might be in a better position because of it, if we keep the spigots open.
As for "if it looks like we'll be sneak attacked", don't bother. If an AI decides they are coming for you based on resources or a city, they are coming. There's no reprieve. It's only if they see a tempting strategic opening with a town weakly defended, and you close the gap, that they may change their minds. In other words, if Cleo's troops cross our border en masse, don't bother giving away cities to try to appease her. It won't matter.
The one move that did not make any sense to me was the ICS addition next to Zimbabwe. I left it there, but I'm at a loss to figure out what the thinking behind that one is. I didn't see any explanation for it in the reports, either. What is its purpose?
- Sirian
As for "if it looks like we'll be sneak attacked", don't bother. If an AI decides they are coming for you based on resources or a city, they are coming. There's no reprieve. It's only if they see a tempting strategic opening with a town weakly defended, and you close the gap, that they may change their minds. In other words, if Cleo's troops cross our border en masse, don't bother giving away cities to try to appease her. It won't matter.
The one move that did not make any sense to me was the ICS addition next to Zimbabwe. I left it there, but I'm at a loss to figure out what the thinking behind that one is. I didn't see any explanation for it in the reports, either. What is its purpose?
- Sirian
Well, it looked like Zimbabwe was going to have corruption problems as it is our farthest city from the capital, it was not going to be able to make full use of its 21 anytime soon (most of which is good productive land,) and there were no other cities nearby that could help make use of those tiles. We were also losing access to some coast tiles due to the large gap between Zimbabwe and the next closest town. Of course another way to deal with the corruption would be to build the FP, but that would not get the land in use any faster. If this is all the land we are going to have for a long time, I figured we would need to make full use of it, so adding a semi-fishing village on the peninsula seemed to make sense to me. If we do capture more territory later, we will probably be a lot closer to the industrial era, and be in a better position to make good use of a more spaced-out build.
250AD(0) Leave everything as it is... Iroquois Declare War on the Chinese. Eqypt is rustling troops along our borders...
260AD(1) Shuffle some workers and land our colonial settler on the white dot.
270AD(2) Our Only Hope founded on white dot. I park our Galley here for later use.
280AD(3) Madrid completes aqueduct begins marketplace. Bapedi completes courthouse and begins a temple. Mpondo completes temple begins a worker.
290AD(4) ... The Americans begin Leonardo's.
300AD(5) ... Uh Oh......This game is over.
310Ad(6) Egypt kills 1 Jag, steals 5 workers and has 20 troops that I can see moving into attack us. There are probably twice as many moving into position.
We can get Iron from America at this point for our now free wines. We could also establish an embassy with either America or Iroqious. With the Iroqouis in a war already it will be harder to draw them in. If we establish an embassy with America an somehow get them to goto war and get iron it won't matter because our trade route goes through egyptian land and will be cut off.
So getting Iron is really the only thing we can do and how long that lasts I don't know.
I do believe this game is over but rather than take it down a particular path I think we all should comment on the next step. I've never been in a SG where we might lose so I don't want to be the one to make the decisions by myself at this point.
310AD What to do?
260AD(1) Shuffle some workers and land our colonial settler on the white dot.
270AD(2) Our Only Hope founded on white dot. I park our Galley here for later use.
280AD(3) Madrid completes aqueduct begins marketplace. Bapedi completes courthouse and begins a temple. Mpondo completes temple begins a worker.
290AD(4) ... The Americans begin Leonardo's.
300AD(5) ... Uh Oh......This game is over.
310Ad(6) Egypt kills 1 Jag, steals 5 workers and has 20 troops that I can see moving into attack us. There are probably twice as many moving into position.
We can get Iron from America at this point for our now free wines. We could also establish an embassy with either America or Iroqious. With the Iroqouis in a war already it will be harder to draw them in. If we establish an embassy with America an somehow get them to goto war and get iron it won't matter because our trade route goes through egyptian land and will be cut off.
So getting Iron is really the only thing we can do and how long that lasts I don't know.
I do believe this game is over but rather than take it down a particular path I think we all should comment on the next step. I've never been in a SG where we might lose so I don't want to be the one to make the decisions by myself at this point.
310AD What to do?
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Well... this definitely adds more weight to the theory I came up with during Epic Thirteen. It did not take them a lot of time to decide to attack, either.
There's really not much to be done. The only hope would be to hold out at the choke long enough to appease her with some cities for peace. That may not be possible, either.
Losing is going to happen in DSG's. We want to win, of course, but the deck was stacked against us for this one. I'd say go ahead and complete your turn, Architect. We'll finish it out to the bitter end, and if we can survive this war with anything left at all, go ahead and go for it. The game's not over until they pry the scepter from our cold dead hands.
- Sirian
There's really not much to be done. The only hope would be to hold out at the choke long enough to appease her with some cities for peace. That may not be possible, either.
Losing is going to happen in DSG's. We want to win, of course, but the deck was stacked against us for this one. I'd say go ahead and complete your turn, Architect. We'll finish it out to the bitter end, and if we can survive this war with anything left at all, go ahead and go for it. The game's not over until they pry the scepter from our cold dead hands.
- Sirian
Ignore that previous message, I decided to play it straight and get it over with.
310AD(6) continued... I trade wines for iron and switch everything but 1 city to swordsman.
320AD(7) Zimbabwe Holds for now. We produce 8 Swordsman. I think intombe is vulnerable. I'm going to try and take it. I decide not to establish embassies at this time as we'll likely need all the money we can get to make peace.
330AD(8) Zimbabwe holds one more turn but I'm going to abandon it now.. Sell temple, barracks and courthouse and burn the Oracle to the ground... We are running 30% lux now just to keep everyone happy. Next turn we attack intombe.
340AD(9) Improvement destruction sends some of our cities into disorder...We take intombe and liberate our stolen zulu workers. Tlaxcala is the big battle next turn.
350AD(10) Tlaxcala falls and is razed to the ground. Our troops take position along the lang bridge just to slow the egyptian advance a turn or 2.
Good Luck T-hawk, your gonna need it.
We make our stand HERE!
310AD(6) continued... I trade wines for iron and switch everything but 1 city to swordsman.
320AD(7) Zimbabwe Holds for now. We produce 8 Swordsman. I think intombe is vulnerable. I'm going to try and take it. I decide not to establish embassies at this time as we'll likely need all the money we can get to make peace.
330AD(8) Zimbabwe holds one more turn but I'm going to abandon it now.. Sell temple, barracks and courthouse and burn the Oracle to the ground... We are running 30% lux now just to keep everyone happy. Next turn we attack intombe.
340AD(9) Improvement destruction sends some of our cities into disorder...We take intombe and liberate our stolen zulu workers. Tlaxcala is the big battle next turn.
350AD(10) Tlaxcala falls and is razed to the ground. Our troops take position along the lang bridge just to slow the egyptian advance a turn or 2.
Good Luck T-hawk, your gonna need it.
We make our stand HERE!
T-hawk
Transcend
Well, it ain't over till it's over. Us capturing Intombe will make it at least possible for Egypt to settle for peace with us. And once an AI's initial surge of units peters out, they usually don't have much left. And a Great Leader or two could just about make up for the war losses... (who'd like the Sistine Chapel?)
Got it, but won't play for a few hours; any more commentary in the meantime is welcome.
Got it, but won't play for a few hours; any more commentary in the meantime is welcome.
go weissen
Chieftain
I play the game all 10 turns phases.
I change 260 AD Madrid to Spaerman - so Madrid 280 AD
bild spaerman/next Spaerman
And the egyptian don't attack.
I change 260 AD Madrid to Spaerman - so Madrid 280 AD
bild spaerman/next Spaerman
And the egyptian don't attack.
smegged
Psi Cop
Please Weissen, no spoilers. This is a closed game, and while we do appreciate lurkers and game followers, spoilers are a bit of a no-no.
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