Re some articles on including racial groups in fictional literature

[Hygro]

I see absolutely no value in that, au contraire, I think it's highly counter productive for people to be told they can only identify with folks of the same skin tone. This whole thing is very silly. There are always small minorities who will never be represented in TV shows, and etc. I don't see why that would make them less likely to succeed. It just means they're that, a small minority. I would argue that representing Alaskan lumberjacks or Greek fishermen of every possible skin tone is just condescending pandering.

Nobody would suggest that a movie about samurais or Mayas (or based on their mythology) also has to include a whole variety of skin tones.

What's more, this new habit of counting the number of dark skin characters in TV shows and even video games and then criticizing them if they don't meet some unspecified quota is plain creepy.

Sure that's reasonable but you aren't coming from the perspective of the people who think that that matters.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I think the concept of white supremacy comes in part from the idea of the supremacy of anything white. The last one is an archetype as old as humanity which is closely related to the concept of sin, or lack of it. White is the purest color, white things in nature are clean, snow, milk, moon, stars, flowers, sea foam... therefore "white" people must be clean, without stain, sin macula, sinless, ence must be superiors. I think writers as Tolkien or Martin were thinking in the archetypical idea of superiority of the white color when created the elves or the Targaryen, whitout any direct racial implication, which, in the case of George R. R. Martin at least, was a dangerous game to play.

True. Imagine Gandalf the Grey becoming Gandalf the Black. That would seem off "Wait, is he now one of the baddies?"

 

[Traitorfish]

Martin created a literally superior race (can handle dragons) who are as white as it gets (even the violet eyes are probably a reference to the red eyes of albinos), who ruled Westeros, ruled important parts of Essos, were some kind of Atlantic super advanced civilization, and are now going to save the world (Jon after all is at least a half-member of that superior race).
I think it is hard to deny the tone of white supremacy in that.

That's pretty much one specific family, though. We meet a bunch of Valyrians, and they ranged from tanned to brown in complexion. The silver-blonde hair and violet eyes are unique even on Wessos- I mean, their eyes are literally purple- so their paler-than-pale complexion seems more like a combination of outlier, inbreeding and a big old helping of fantasy genetics.

Moreover, they are with a single exception presented as sadistic weirdos, rather than admirable supermen. Given Martin's similarly unflattering treatment of the second-most Aryan clan in the setting, the Lannisters, it's hard to see this as a straightforward replication of white supremacist history.

The superior race will be white, the barbarians will be of darker skin tone etc.

Now, the Wildlings are given a much fuller treatment than the Dorthraki ever are, and that's significant. The Wildings get a culture and a philosophy, the Dothraki are Sexy Drogo the Smouldering Beef-Lord, and some background dudes. Comparably, the most civilised characters in the show are the darker-complexioned merchants and aristocrats of Essos, but we don't get much about them other than a general image of opulence and despotism. The issue in Game of Thrones, at least, is really not so much the identification of whiteness with civilisation or darkness with barbarism, but the depth permitted to each. Light-civilisation is shown in all its contradiction and tragedy, dark-skinned civilisation is simply decadent. That light-skinned barbarisn become noble savages, but dark-skinned barbarians remain simply savage.

 

[warpus]

I wonder if this guy has ever seen Star Wars. Someone should tell him about it

 

[Hygro]

Sexy Drogo the Smouldering Beef-Lord!

 

[luiz]

Sure that's reasonable but you aren't coming from the perspective of the people who think that that matters.

I think people have been told that that matters by racial ideologues and now that's a thing. But it isn't. Imagine say Indians in Finland. They're such a small minority that they will never be represented in TV shows, ads, plays, etc. Would that prevent them from succeeding? Of course not. I dare say that Indians in Finland are doing just fine (without researching anything).

 

[Hygro]

One of my favorite authors agrees with you. Maybe there's complexity that goes into the motivations like specific peoples in the USA feeling oppressed (do immigrants in Finland feel oppressed?) and perhaps massaging our way through it is the way to go.

It's easy for you and me to say something doesn't matter (that needing "representation" is BS) when it's not us having the unrepresented experience.

 

[Kyriakos]

One of my favorite authors agrees with you. Maybe there's complexity that goes into the motivations like specific peoples in the USA feeling oppressed (do immigrants in Finland feel oppressed?) and perhaps massaging our way through it is the way to go.

It's easy for you and me to say something doesn't matter (that needing "representation" is BS) when it's not us having the unrepresented experience.

There are next to no economic immigrants in Finland, cause that country is in the uber-racist block
A bit ironic, given they come from asian steppe people.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

That's pretty much one specific family, though. We meet a bunch of Valyrians, and they ranged from tanned to brown in complexion. The silver-blonde hair and violet eyes are unique even on Wessos- I mean, their eyes are literally purple- so their paler-than-pale complexion seems more like a combination of outlier, inbreeding and a big old helping of fantasy genetics.

Seems to me we simply have to distinguish between Valyrians and the Valyrian ruling class.

A common racial characteristic among Valyrians appears to have been purple eyes and hair of silver-gold or platinum white.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyria
And the Tagarians weren't even a particular powerful house within Valyria, according to the same wiki page.

So still Aryan super race

But yes they are still people, and the Tagarians got rather mad, presumably due to inbreeding.

The issue in Game of Thrones, at least, is really not so much the identification of whiteness with civilisation or darkness with barbarism, but the depth permitted to each. Light-civilisation is shown in all its contradiction and tragedy, dark-skinned civilisation is simply decadent. That light-skinned barbarisn become noble savages, but dark-skinned barbarians remain simply savage.

Interesting point.
The reason to my mind is, that all that in-depth illumination of politics and society was reserved mostly for Westeros, because Essos served as a candy store for exotic other (non-Northern-European) stuff, while never going to be the main place of events, just a place for Dany to have some adventures, and get that army. Hence also the lack of an empire in Essos, while the abundance of city states with unique features.

 

[luiz]

One of my favorite authors agrees with you. Maybe there's complexity that goes into the motivations like specific peoples in the USA feeling oppressed (do immigrants in Finland feel oppressed?) and perhaps massaging our way through it is the way to go.

It's easy for you and me to say something doesn't matter (that needing "representation" is BS) when it's not us having the unrepresented experience.

I don't know, I'm a Brazilian in France, we're a pretty tiny community here and not really "represented". For some years I was a Brazilian in the US, slightly bigger community thigh still small, perhaps a bit more of "representation", but not that much. Never felt like seeing other Brazilians on TV was somehow important for my personal development...

 

[Akka]

That's just because you've internalized oppression, obviously.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I saw some articles, from an analogous (ongoing) thread at the Total War Center forums. Apparently the issue was a need or suggestion to include more "racial" minorities in written fiction. One of the examined cases was Asoiaf (GRRM books). One such article, by an academic, can be read at https://www.publicmedievalist.com/game-thrones-racism-problem/.

Something I like to look for, when I have the time, is whether the author of an article like this one spends an equal (or greater) amount of time or words celebrating existing examples of what they cite a lack of. For example, one could criticize Martin for writing White characters in his fantasy novels, or one could celebrate (or, heck, promote) the fantasy novels of N.K. Jemisin (The Fifth Season), Ken Liu (The Grace of Kings), or Saladin Ahmed (Throne of the Crescent Moon). Robert Jackson Bennett (City of Stairs) sets his fantasy series in a world modeled on post-colonial India. I'm not sure what his ethnicity is, other than what I can infer from his name. All four of these authors are American, incidentally, for those of you who believe Americans are all myopic and insular.

The problem of representation isn't the white characters, per se, it's the lack of non-white characters, and an article that focuses on the former while ignoring the latter kind of perpetuates the problem, in my view, by focusing the reader's attention on the wrong thing. I remember when Saving Private Ryan came out, some few people criticized it for its lack of diversity. They were a small minority, and everybody rightly brushed them off, but I wondered whether those same people trumpeted Spike Lee's Miracle at St. Anna 10 years later. Maybe they did, I don't know that they didn't, but I'm skeptical.

 

[warpus]

I don't know, I'm a Brazilian in France, we're a pretty tiny community here and not really "represented". For some years I was a Brazilian in the US, slightly bigger community thigh still small, perhaps a bit more of "representation", but not that much. Never felt like seeing other Brazilians on TV was somehow important for my personal development...

Would you even know another Brazilian just by looking at him/her?

 

[luiz]

Would you even know another Brazilian just by looking at him/her?

Looking? No. Listening to him/her speak in whatever language? Yes.

 

[warpus]

See, I'm lucky, I have Poldar. I can see Polish people without hearing what they sound like. It is about 95% accurate.

 

[Kyriakos]

See, I'm lucky, I have Poldar. I can see Polish people without hearing what they sound like. It is about 95% accurate.

Is it poldar or general slavdar?

 

[luiz]

See, I'm lucky, I have Poldar. I can see Polish people without hearing what they sound like. It is about 95% accurate.

Well I can also easily identify Brazilians by how they dress, behave, etc. But on TV, where people don't choose their clothes, it's based on accent. And it never fails.

 

[warpus]

Is it poldar or general slavdar?

It is strictly Poldar. Czechs usually look a bit more exotic than a Pole for instance. Serbs and Russians have something distinct about them that rules them out as Poles, although some Russians look a lot like some eastern Poles. Slovaks can be tricky, especially if you're comparing them to Silesian Poles, but there is just something about Poles that triggers my Poldar, even a Pole in a sea of Slovaks. Croatians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, etc. are easy. Ukrainians and Belarussians can be tricky too. For instance my dad's side of the family could very easily pass for Ukrainian. However, there is still usually that *something* that triggers your Poldar and leads you to the light.

I've also been able to detect Poles from a distance. I'm not a linguist so I can't explain it, but the way you enunciate the Polish language will give a Pole away from a distance, even if you can't hear at all what is being said. Surprisingly enough I've confused Portugese for Polish before, at a distance, when you couldn't make out the details of the speech but could only hear "the general way of speaking". By that I mean inflection, pitch changes, emphasis on certain syllables, etc. The way the language flows. Other Slavic languages stick out like a sore thumb, even if they sound similar, I would never confuse them for Polish the way I confused Portugese for Polish that one time. No idea what it is about Portugese, but some of the language seems to flow in a very similar way, if that makes sense.

But on TV, where people don't choose their clothes, it's based on accent. And it never fails.

Yeah, that makes sense. Is it as clear as hearing the difference between American and British accents?

 

[luiz]

Yeah, that makes sense. Is it as clear as hearing the difference between American and British accents?

Yeah, something like that. Brazilians of course will speak English (or Spanish, or French, etc) with a variety of different accents, depending on where they learned the language and where they come from in Brazil. But there's always a distinct "Brazilian marker" in their speech, that any born and raised Brazilian will carry no matter how well they speak a foreign language. Takes about 5 seconds to identify one

 

[Traitorfish]

See, I'm lucky, I have Poldar. I can see Polish people without hearing what they sound like. It is about 95% accurate.

I have that, too: they've always got a shopping basket containing bison-grass vodka, Mike Tyson-branded energy drinks, and miscellaneous pickled things in jars.

Mine might be specifically calibrated to working in a supermarket.