Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Still waiting to see what that Catapult from the update video was referring to. I hope it's at least the Trebuchet, and maybe even some more units to fill in the gaps. Where are Napoleonic era riflemen?

Just realized what if the catapult was signifying “launching” another season pass?

 

[Xandinho]

I'm hoping the surprise is the announcement of a second pass.

As much as I want this, I think the surprises will be new maps and maybe some new units like Trebuchet. If we are lucky, we may get a new wonder (crossed fingers for Notre Dame).

 

[tedhebert]

And what if by 'community event' they mean improved/upgraded modding capabilities, of which our fellow civfans modders (you know who you are ;-) ) are already aware of, have already used, and will be showcased in the event, but have been legally bound NOT to talk about until release ???

And that now, those self-same civfans modders are, just a teeny weeny bit, trollling us ?

Hey, a man can dream, can't he ?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

https://www.pcgamesn.com/civilization-vi/civ-balance-april-2021-patch

They wouldn’t confirm the details of what the April patch would bring, but it sounds like it’s going to shake things up. “We’ve been sitting in waiting on a lot of exciting balance changes for a long time,” Strenger tells us. “This is going to be probably the biggest community update event ever. (...) I think fans are gonna be really excited once they see the full list of patch notes.”

More balance and polishing than new content But this is reasonable.

 

[pokiehl]

https://www.pcgamesn.com/civilization-vi/civ-balance-april-2021-patch

Yep, we've been discussing that for 2 pages

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Yep, we've been discussing that for 2 pages

Nah, for just one

 

[aieeegrunt]

I can definitly see the logic in not doing major fixes/system changes till the game is “finished”.

If the April patch addresses most of the major complaints/broken stuff then I’d say they’ve done their job and I’ll most likely get Civ7

A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin.

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

Here's one thing that's been bugging me since the patch: could they remove or modify the malus against Mali since they made a Civ who's entire gimmick is gold without a production malus?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Here's one thing that's been bugging me since the patch: could they remove or modify the malus against Mali since they made a Civ who's entire gimmick is gold without a production malus?

Not sure if there is any reason to remove the malus, considering Portugal got a malus as well. They can't trade internationally with inland cities.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Not sure if there is any reason to remove the malus, considering Portugal got a malus as well. They can't trade internationally with inland cities.

It's true...but there are so many ways to get around that. Like settling cities on the coast (Buying settlers on the cheap) and then selling them to AI just to trade. I just won a game as Portugal on a Pangea map thanks to a bit of a strange inland sea, and this above strat. It's bonkers and puts Mali to shame.

I just think a little bonus to Mali's trade routes would be in order. Sahel Merchants just "meh" compared to Portugal so even just increasing how much gold you get by 1 or 2, or allowing desert hills to count would be great. A small buff towards trade routes themselves to put Mali on more equal footing.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's true...but there are so many ways to get around that. Like settling cities on the coast (Buying settlers on the cheap) and then selling them to AI just to trade. I just won a game as Portugal on a Pangea map thanks to a bit of a strange inland sea, and this above strat. It's bonkers and puts Mali to shame.

I never would have thought of selling coastal cities to another civ, though. That's on the next level

I just think a little bonus to Mali's trade routes would be in order. Sahel Merchants just "meh" compared to Portugal so even just increasing how much gold you get by 1 or 2, or allowing desert hills to count would be great. A small buff towards trade routes themselves to put Mali on more equal footing.

I do think gold for any desert tile in the origin city, not just flat desert, would work. It's not like the whole Sahara where they traded was flat anyway. The caravans definitely had to travel over sand dunes, which is what is what desert hills is depicted by in the first place.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I do think gold for any desert tile in the origin city, not just flat desert, would work. It's not like the whole Sahara where they traded was flat anyway. The caravans definitely had to travel over sand dunes, which is what is what desert hills is depicted by in the first place.

I think it's only flat desert tiles because desert hills can produce +4 gold through mines.

I'm ambivalent by the comparison between Portugal and Mali, though. On one hand, they both suffer from early game (low production and no international trade routes), but Portugal has a way to become stronger more quickly I feel. I think the proposition made on several posts (limiting the +50% yields to international trade routes to a city with at least a feitoria) would nicely balance the civ a little without penalizing it too much.
On the other hand, Mali is more reliable than Portugal though. Sure, Mali can only get at most +8 Trade route capacity, and only if they chain golden ages all along, while the +X trade route capacity for Portugal is more reliable (only need to discover a civ). On the other hand, Mali's bonus is not map reliant, unlike Portugal, so on small maps Mali has a clear bonus. Plus, Mali will always be able to do international trade, while Portugal might be limited (also the exploit of founding a coastal city then trading it to another civ is real). Although, if Mali doesn't has a lot of desert, they're loose their bonus yields.
I'm not for throwing away the Mali production bonus, because it's part of its identity: no production, only buy.

Anyway, I'm eagerly waiting to see what will happen in the rebalance patch, but for me, Mali is still a very well designed civ, not the one in most need of rebalance. Mali just shine a little less compared to Portugal, but it's definitely not like Spain bonky bonuses, Khmer lack of interesting features or other civs.

 

[The Civs 6]

If you took away Mali's malus, they would be incredibly OP. Are we forgetting that they basically get a 30% discount on buying things with gold? Even with the malus they are pretty much auto-win if you can get that first golden age.

 

[Menocchio]

What makes Portugal so uniquely powerful compared to any trading civilisation before it is definitely the employment of a percentage modifier to yields. Flat increases like Poland and Cleopatra's +4 gold do not scale (and in fact are themselves not affected by trade value modifiers, making them worse than Portugal's bonus in every way), making them, perhaps worst of all, simply superseded by policy cards: from near the beginning of the game any civilisation can get a flat +2 gold to all trade routes, and soon enough after +4 gold. Similarly, Menelik's and the Voidsingers' percentage yield increase (15% of faith transformed into science and culture) is so powerful because it scales with yield increases. Urban Planning is such a good policy card because it offers a flat yield increase when some of your cities might only have 2-4 production.

Evidenced by Portugal, Babylon, Menelik, Voidsingers, and Corporations, percentage-based yield modifiers are a major aspect of new civilisations and new gameplay. Before the New Frontier Pass, the only civilisation or leader that I can think of which had a percentage yield increase (as opposed to production discounts like Hungary or tourism increases, for example) was Saladin's small 10% culture, faith, and science increase from Holy Sites with a worship building.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Flat increases like Poland and Cleopatra's +4 gold do not scale (and in fact are themselves not affected by trade value modifiers, making them worse than Portugal's bonus in every way), making them, perhaps worst of all, simply superseded by policy cards: from near the beginning of the game any civilisation can get a flat +2 gold to all trade routes, and soon enough after +4 gold. Similarly, Menelik's and the Voidsingers' percentage yield increase (15% of faith transformed into science and culture) is so powerful because it scales with yield increases.

That's also what makes Wilhelmina so weak. +1 culture per trade route? There is at least two Policy Cards that gives you more culture per trade route, so it's basically useless. Her unique "unique" is the loyalty bonus, but it's so ridiculously irrelevant that it doesn't matter much I think.

 

[Menocchio]

Yeah, at Mercenaries you get +1 science and culture for international trade routes, which alone is better than Wilhelmina. The loyalty aspect is even worse: two policy cards (Limitanei and Praetorium) offer better loyalty increases (+2) simply for having garrisons or governors... or you can just build a monument (+1) or even better, play a religious civilisation and found a religion: +3 loyalty automatically, or a whole three Wilhelmina trade routes. Not exactly the expense you want to dedicate to getting loyalty, let alone have a leader ability solely dedicated to it. Even Peter is better!

 

[The Civs 6]

Yeah, at Mercenaries you get +1 science and culture for international trade routes, which alone is better than Wilhelmina. The loyalty aspect is even worse: two policy cards (Limitanei and Praetorium) offer better loyalty increases (+2) simply for having garrisons or governors... or you can just build a monument (+1) or even better, play a religious civilisation and found a religion: +3 loyalty automatically, or a whole three Wilhelmina trade routes. Not exactly the expense you want to dedicate to getting loyalty, let alone have a leader ability solely dedicated to it. Even Peter is better!

But isn't the core of the Dutch kit really the polders and the bonus adjacency for rivers? Not that it is any great shakes. But I'd say the big problem with it is more that there has been a little bit of power creep in general since she was released.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

But isn't the core of the Dutch kit really the polders and the bonus adjacency for rivers? Not that it is any great shakes. But I'd say the big problem with it is more that there has been a little bit of power creep in general since she was released.

I agree with you, and that's why I don't consider the Netherlands as a trade civ, but a city-planning civ. But it's sad to see that we have a civ with a basically inexistent leader that sole purpose is to shout at you when you don't send them trade routes.

 

[Aurelesk]

For Wihelmina, I don't really know what are the options. How to make her ability interesting and not too powerful while the whole civilization is already powerful.
I believe the Trade Route have to be interesting for both ends. Why would I want to send a Trade Route to the Netherlands for them to enjoy a free Culture? Except for the Agenda, there is no point. Maybe her ability should be unrestricted. For example: "Each internationnal Trade Route from or toward a Dutch city yields 1 Culture and 1 Loyalty for both cities."
It will not be strong, but at least it is useable. You could also add a little extra but gimmicky thing with the Broadcast Center since the ability's name is "Radio Oranje". For example: "Each internationnal Trade Route from or toward a Dutch city yields 1 Culture and 1 Loyalty for both cities. Those values are doubled if the city has a Broadcast Center."

When I look at England or Spain, I find it quite weird to have some of the bonuses of their unique infrastructure are spread within the civilization's abilities. Why the free naval unit or the Strategic Ressource stockpilesnot part of the Royal Navy Dockyard's bonuses, but from Victoria's and England's abilities instead? Why the Loyalty bonus not part of the Mission's bonuses, but from Spain's ability instead?

For England, putting some Victoria's ability into the Royal Navy Dockyard would make Eleanor enjoys them. But is this really a problem?

I wonder if they are going to stick with the clunky continental system with those both civilizations, and if they are going to stick the colonisation gameplay. England seems to want to settle unclaimed land on foreign continent for additionnal Gold and Trade Route, meanwhile Spain seems to conqueer foreign civilizations for... winning the game and better Mission? Yeah, it is not very clear.

Either they abolish this continental non-sense, or fully embrace it. Right now, why as England and Spain would you want to settle anything else than foreign cities? Would it make better sense to have different gameplay but equally interesting if you are on your home continent or foreign one? So you are not getting frustated to not fully enjoy the bonus if you happens to not be able to settle foreign lands? Like this:

• England: Cities on your home continent would have more Production with a Naval focus, while cities on foreign continent would have more Gold with a Military focus.
• Spain: Cities on your home continent would be more secular with Mission yielding more Science, while cities on foreign continent would be more religious with Mission yielding more Faith (and maybe Tourism at Flight?).

Here the ideas written. This is just a draft: I have no idea if this makes sense or if it is balanced or not. It is just here to picture it more easily:

Spoiler :

Royal Navy Dockyard
A district unique to England. Replaces the Harbor district.
+1 Movement for all naval units built in Dockyard.
On home continent: Adjacency bonus gives Production instead of Gold. When the Royal Navy Dockyard is constructed, receive a free naval unit. +10 Strategic Resource stockpiles for each building.
On foreign continent: +2 Gold. When the Royal Navy Dockyard is constructed, receive a free melee unit. +4 Loyalty.

Mission
Unlocks the Builder ability to construct a Mission, unique to Spain. Unlocked at Theology (it needs to be available earlier)
15 HP healing every turn for friendly military units (I am just throwing it there: sounds cool if it works like an hospital, but feels free to discard that bonus).
On home continent: +2 Science and 1 Housing (base); 1 Science for each adjacent Campus and 1 Food if adjacent to a City-Center (Rationalism); 2 Science (Cultural Heritage)
On foreign continent: +2 Faith and 2 Loyalty (base); 2 Faith 1 Food 1 Production (Exploration); Faith yields Tourism (Flight); 2 Faith (Cultural Heritage).

 

[8housesofelixir]

I agree with you, and that's why I don't consider the Netherlands as a trade civ, but a city-planning civ.

Completely agree, and besides adjacencies and polders I personally consider the production bonus of Dam and Flood Barriers as part of the core of Dutch kit. They are quite niche, of course, but IRL Netherlands is one of the Infrastructure Civilization, from the creation of waterschappen to massive dikes, floor gates, and polders built in the last century (Maeslantkering is basically a modern wonder of engineering, for instance).

I hope there can be a way to address the infrastructure part of the Dutch uniqueness (instead of just trade) while provide an interesting gameplay for them at the same time.