Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[Leucarum]

Maybe they could do +1 production to tundra farms on top of +1 food? Then the farms would be +2 food +1 production which is equal to plains farms I think. They need food but food isn't the only thing holding them back from making use of tundra I feel like

Yeah I think extra food is the bare minimum to be honest...

 

[Menocchio]

I like to imagine the developers reading this thread and others like it, hurriedly jotting down notes, then scratching them out, then writing them again. What I look forward to even more than speculation, to be honest, is the final result of April's balance changes and a nice little thread debating about them.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

The funniest part is Canada would work better with Teddy Bull Moose

 

[BD123]

I like to imagine the developers reading this thread and others like it, hurriedly jotting down notes, then scratching them out, then writing them again. What I look forward to even more than speculation, to be honest, is the final result of April's balance changes and a nice little thread debating about them.

I'm looking forward to what April has in store but I'm also thinking about how Civ 5 closed with NO changes to India's Population Growth ability, and a minimal buff to Japan's fishing boats and Germany got a hanse but their ability was left untouched. Definitely think the promised balance changes for the 2/3 civs will be much more substantial than those given to Civ 5 but I'm still scarred it's gonna be like "+1 food to Khmer holy sites ok bye"

 

[Menocchio]

I'm looking forward to what April has in store but I'm also thinking about how Civ 5 closed with NO changes to India's Population Growth ability, and a minimal buff to Japan's fishing boats and Germany got a hanse but their ability was left untouched. Definitely think the promised balance changes for the 2/3 civs will be much more substantial than those given to Civ 5 but I'm still scarred it's gonna be like "+1 food to Khmer holy sites ok bye"

Monkey's paw: the figure of "2/3 of all civs" is referring to all but the bottom 1/3. And no leaders.

 

[DefiantMars]

All of Canada's abilities are clumsy, because they are either useless outside a very specific, limited, and poor terrain type, or only come into effect near the very end of most games. Contrast Russia, which gets free tundra production and faith from turn 1 (meaning tundra is essentially plains minus farms, and an early pantheon) as well as extra tiles in cities everywhere. If Canada had improved lumber mills (gold, culture, housing, for example) and camps in all terrain types, that would help a bit. I used to imagine that combined with earlier forest planting could be interesting, but Vietnam has that already now.

That's a good point about Vietnam's early Woods planting. I had similar feelings about the Khmer and Canal technologies before Qin Shi Huang got the buff where they unlock Canals at Masonry instead of Steam Power. I still feel Khmer could get Canals at Engineering or something to that effect; a later unlock than China but on the CA itself rather than the LA. So maybe something similar could be applied to Canada?

I would have much rather Last Best West be this:
Can build farms on hill tiles without Civil Engineering. Plains tiles, Hill tiles, and tiles with woods cost 50% less gold to purchase. On those tiles resources accumulate twice as fast, mines and lumber mills provide extra production, and camps extra food.

As for the Ice Hockey Rink I'd change the requirement so that it could be built on any tile, except desert, and everything else stays the same still wanting to build it around tundra and an EC.

Huh... when you change TLBW that way, it reminds me of Civ 5 America which I suppose is very appropriate. This change sounds quite reasonable to me as it removes some of the vestigial flavor-based limitations but it greatly improves gameplay with minimal changes. They'd still have incentive to pursue Tundra for their UI but wouldn't be completely screwed without it.

 

[Abaxial]

Don't forget that the suggested "alternative Canadian national anthem" is THIS:

 

[aieeegrunt]

Alternately: a maritime-oriented Canadian civilisation, and the soundtrack is entirely made of Newfoundland shanties. I am quite sure those ought to be old enough to be outside copyright!

NO

Canada’s tundra bias makes zero sense on any level. Look at a map and where Canadians actually live. If there is a bias it should be towards forests and lakes, and Canada should get Super Lumber Mills bonus as well as a bonus to farms on plains

 

[Deadly Dog]

Yeah the tundra thing with Canada has bothered me from day one. But since our maps basically skip the long transition from temperate forests to the poles with just 2 terrain types to cover it, it is reasonable to assign Canada's abilities to that terrain type that Civ developers insist is both tundra yet somehow can be afforested.

The most realistic take I think would be to allow Canada to access resources as workable tiles that are more than 3 tiles from a city. Lumber mills and dams that are really remote, that's the reality I experienced in the resource "frontier". (Though it was the Americans who built a lot of this stuff in the early 20th century).

If rails were better implemented and a thing that would be the ticket to accessing remote tiles, letting an ME claim tiles by laying track. That and a bonus to lumber mills on rivers,lakes and coast.

 

[Abaxial]

If rails were better implemented and a thing that would be the ticket to accessing remote tiles, letting an ME claim tiles by laying track.

Historically, the importance of the Canadian Pacific Railway was not so much claiming territory as ensuring loyalty. MacDonald realised that keeping such a diverse and widely distributed country together could not be done without an east-west transport link; hence the effort he put in to ensuring that the CPR got built. Otherwise there was a danger that BC and Alberta would secede, and maybe join the USA. Before the rail link was completed, if you wanted to travel from Victoria to Ottawa, you had to take a ship to San Francisco and make your way east from there. This very much undermined the idea of Canadian nationhood. Hence there are good grounds for regarding Sir John A as the Father of Modern Canada.

Hence my suggestion for Canada in Civ that cities with a rail connection are 100% loyal.But I do like the idea of claiming tiles by laying track! It need not be an exclusively Canadian mechanic. It would solve those annoying situations when a vital resource node is revealed four tiles from your nearest cities.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

The most realistic take I think would be to allow Canada to access resources as workable tiles that are more than 3 tiles from a city. Lumber mills and dams that are really remote, that's the reality I experienced in the resource "frontier". (Though it was the Americans who built a lot of this stuff in the early 20th century).

That would be very interesting and could also work marvelously with the "asymetric" trend they have. Cities can work tiles up to 4 distance instead of 3, but cannot found cities only 3 tiles apart.


Also, I saw a lot of people talking about how to rework England to synergize better with Engleanor, but nobody's really talking about France (because <france needs a bigger rework) but I thought about this: the Château is really lackluster for now. What if we gave each Château a slot for a great work of art and maybe additional GWAM points production, maybe in brute numbers or in percentage (like each château increase the production of GWAM points by 20%)? With some limitations maybe (only some types of great works). It would synergize nicely with France naturally aiming for Cultural Victory, but it would be a major boost for Freleanor which would have more leniance to slot great works and use Court of Love. And I think the placement restrictions (only on a river, not two châteaux adjacent) are already limitating enough to prevent a Château spam.

 

[Leucarum]

That would be very interesting and could also work marvelously with the "asymetric" trend they have. Cities can work tiles up to 4 distance instead of 3, but cannot found cities only 3 tiles apart.


Also, I saw a lot of people talking about how to rework England to synergize better with Engleanor, but nobody's really talking about France (because <france needs a bigger rework) but I thought about this: the Château is really lackluster for now. What if we gave each Château a slot for a great work of art and maybe additional GWAM points production, maybe in brute numbers or in percentage (like each château increase the production of GWAM points by 20%)? With some limitations maybe (only some types of great works). It would synergize nicely with France naturally aiming for Cultural Victory, but it would be a major boost for Freleanor which would have more leniance to slot great works and use Court of Love. And I think the placement restrictions (only on a river, not two châteaux adjacent) are already limitating enough to prevent a Château spam.

I guess the problem with giving an UI great work slots is that if the city gets destroyed or captured, or if the UI is voluntarily bulldozed - what happens to the great work?

 

[pokiehl]

A bad memory then. I'm sorry for having spoken ill of your mod as I did. I had the vague memory of a Babylon rework in a vast rework project where they were limited to a 90% Eureka.

Just took a look back to the mod, and indeed Babylon doesn't have it. Not a fan of the new ability you gave them, but it's way better than my memory. Lost the gimmick though which I loved and the asymetry, but that's a choice that I can understand.

I sincerely don't know where my fake memories when. Next time I'll speak ill from the mod, I'll make sure to check the mod before

As for the rest (the Gallic ability to put districts next to the city center, Maya's inner circle extended to 9 tiles, Kongo able to found a religion...), it's a matter of personal preferences, I guess. I loved their restrictions and I'm sad that they're gone.

On the other hand, one thing I find fabulous about your new designs are how being suzerain of city-States (well, tributaries as you call them) tie with so many civilizations. I wholheartedly disagree with a lot of your choices, but you still have some incredibly good ideas.

Other question then: have you an idea how you will modify Portugal then? I fond them so well balanced that I'm genuinely curious if you already have some ideas for them.

First of all I apologize if my first message came off harshly - didn't mean for it to sound that way. I just see the mod being discussed in a lot of different places and people weren't getting the details right, so I wanted to clarify. I absolutely respect that your opinions can differ from mine and I appreciate your perspective! The mod can't please everyone, and indeed, the game itself can't!

As far as Portugal, I think it is so well designed and looks really fun, so my changes will be relatively minor and will be intended just to make sure it can "keep up" with the rest of the civs in the mod. The ideas are still germinating in my head but here are some examples:

- For the Civilization ability: Perhaps adding a minor bonus upon acquiring Great Admirals (to synergize with the Navigation School and their naval focus). Something like a random Eureka for each Great Admiral, or maybe perhaps +1 Envoy.

- For the Leader ability: Not really sure here. Maybe change +1 Sight for all units to +1 Sight and +1 Movement for embarked/naval units?

- For the Navigation School: Kind of thinking it doesn't need anything else. Not sure, gotta see the full nuts and bolts of it.

- For the Feitoria: I'm thinking to buff its tile yields just a small amount to limit the capacity for it to be used to "punish" other civs.

 

[Buktu]

- For the Feitoria: I'm thinking to buff its tile yields just a small amount to limit the capacity for it to be used to "punish" other civs.

Is it a punishment for other civs though? I mean the only thing I can think of is maybe blocking some harbour spots. But you can always place the harbour right after settling a city to prevent it. Otherwise it provides good yields already on an otherwise quite useless tile.
Indonesia and the Dutch might loose a few tiles for their UI.
Anyway you can always deny open borders to prevent any feitorias in your territory.

 

[UWHabs]

I guess the problem with giving an UI great work slots is that if the city gets destroyed or captured, or if the UI is voluntarily bulldozed - what happens to the great work?

I think there's ways to handle that - would be the same if you conquer Kongo's capital, right? Or if you conquer any UB with extra slots like a Prasat. I forget if they get shifted to another city, or just get destroyed. I would assume it's more a problem from a technical point of view, in that otherwise all great work slots belong to a specific "building", so I imagine the game is only searching through those to display.

 

[pokiehl]

Is it a punishment for other civs though? I mean the only thing I can think of is maybe blocking some harbour spots. But you can always place the harbour right after settling a city to prevent it. Otherwise it provides good yields already on an otherwise quite useless tile.
Indonesia and the Dutch might loose a few tiles for their UI.
Anyway you can always deny open borders to prevent any feitorias in your territory.

I think you can use it to indeed block Harbor/Water Park/Wonder spots and it also will hamper growth, so it doesn't provide Food unlike the Fishing Boats/Fishery. I just think it'd be wise to perhaps make someone think twice before doing that sort of spam.

 

[Buktu]

I don't think you can build it on a resource so I dont think you can block any fishing boats (plus you will still get some food from the lighthouse on feitoria tiles I guess?). And since you can't place feitorias next to each other you always have slots for Water Parks/fisheries left. Also there need to be luxury/bonus resources next to the places where you your wonders etc.
And as I said you can still decline open borders or fill the tiles you need with your own units to block Portugal from building feitorias in your cities.

 

[Caprikel]

Portugal would probably be a great civ to have as an ally in multiplayer, since the ally of Portugal could set up the perfect city for lots of Feitorias to benefit from the tile yields, and have the Portugal ally send most of their trade routes to that city for massive trade yields. I guess the ideal team would be Egypt and Portugal. Just imagine all the gold (And food) they would be both be making with a city with Reyna and 4+ Feitorias with multiple trade route being sent from and to it.
This makes me wonder, do trade route yields count as city yields? Would gold product modifiers increase the gold yields of trade routes in a city?

 

[Menocchio]

This makes me wonder, do trade route yields count as city yields? Would gold product modifiers increase the gold yields of trade routes in a city?

They do, yes, so they are affected by percentage modifiers to yields.

 

[Caprikel]

That's good to know, I'll have to try to get one of the gold monopolies when I try out a OCC run with Portugal to see how much gold I can get one city to produce.