Regicide - a monarch game rigged against me.

[K.Murx]

The common approach by people that want to move up a difficulty level seems to be to play a game at the next highest level and ask for advice.
So I wanted to do something different, by playing a game on my current difficulty level (monarch), and creating the most difficult map and AI setup I could think of (without resorting to things like "always war". If I can beat this soundly, it is time to move up a level.
Of course, I would very much welcome your advice

[edit] vranasm has convinced me that this is actually a rather easy setup. So, to keep it challenging, I set a new goal:
Beat obsolete's AD 1655 finish date
( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10736674&postcount=6 )

[edit2] The outcome: 1715 finish date. Too bad... But good enough for emperor, I guess.


These are the settings:

Small map. Archipelago (always have trouble here), arid, high sea level.
Player Civ: Charlemagne
Opponents: Catherine, Joao II, Darius, Zara.

No barbarians, huts and events. The AI is not particularly good at dealing with either(except huts).

Save attached.

The start:

Spoiler :

My thought process went like this:
To the left is very likely the end of the island. However, the scout can't move to the right (grassland hill) anyway, so he might just as well go SW. There might be a positive surprise there, after all.
This revealed stone 2 SW of the settler, and the expected coastline beyond.
Then I reasoned: Not much land to the west. So if I want to place a city there, it might need the tiles the capital will occupy if I SIP. Therefore, let's move the the plain hills.

5 turns later, the situation looks like this:

Spoiler :

Great. I managed to shoot myself in the foot with my very first decision
Instead of three very decent cities if I had settled on the ivory 1S of Aachen, I now have one super city, and one decent city on the white spot.

Okay, the plan:
Finish AH. Then tech Fishing -> Sailing -> mining -> BW.
Build order: Worker -> Settler (white spot) -> WB (fish), WB (scout)-> Settler / galley (which one comes first depends on growth of the capital)

I will probably not go for the GLH. It would make things too easy.

The reasoning for settling the white spot:
Fish in first ring, thus no need for monument compared to settling on the stone.
The second fish available if I settle 1SE is better saved for some city on the desert island.
Settling on the plains forest would mean wasting 20 hammers, and lead to overlap with the capital, all for gaining two coastal tiles and a very small reduction in maintenance.

Question: Would the mistake of settling on the plains hill have been avoidable?
Of course, I could have moved the scout on the grassland hill, the settler on the plains hill and on turn two moved the scout NW,N. But that seems... counterintuitive.

 

[dirtyparrot]

It really didn't make much sense to move where you did. It was going to take you forever to get a wb to the clams. If you wanted to move, you would have been better off 1NE. I would also revise your build order to better match up with your tech path. No point in building a worker if you're teching fishing>sailing first.

 

[Silverbow]

I'd settle the white spot 1SE to claim the second fish as well.

 

[Sian]

Small map. Archipelago (always have trouble here), arid, high sea level.

congrats on the win ... the AI is worse than horribad on archipelago with high seas ... except 1-2 city empires at 500ad, even with, if otherwise, good AI's such as Zara

 

[vranasm]

with this combination of AI's would be much better to make pangea map instead

 

[obsolete]

Hmm, did a quick run for kicks... Seems they capitulate SOOOOO much easier on smaller sized maps.

Spoiler :

 

[K.Murx]

It really didn't make much sense to move where you did. If you wanted to move, you would have been better off 1NE.

The path to the plain hill was over 1 NE. However, that only revealed the gems (which I was happy about), but not that the island is that small.

I would also revise your build order to better match up with your tech path. No point in building a worker if you're teching fishing>sailing first.

I am researching AH currently, and already have hunting (starting tech). So the worker has plenty of things to do (two cows, two ivory).
What I have been thinking about is exchanging the first WB and the first settler, because the WB needs quite some time to go to the fish, and the new city without the fish can't do much anyway. So it might be better to grow on WB, If my (literally^^) back-of-the envelope calculations are correct, I can grow to size 3 while producing the WB in 10 turns. Sounds good!

I'd settle the white spot 1SE to claim the second fish as well.

Tempting. If I want another city to work the Fish, the two cities can alway swap the tile back and forth, right? However, it's then in the second ring of the city, and I need to expand borders. No tech cost attached as I already have mysticism, but still 20 hammers and 17 turns (city has 3 production when working GH, which means it takes 7 turns for the monument. 10 more turns for the border pop).
On the white spot, the city is ready to go from turn 1 if I have the workboat in place.
All those Deity players seem to value short term > long term, so I'll try that

congrats on the win ... the AI is worse than horribad on archipelago with high seas ... except 1-2 city empires at 500ad, even with, if otherwise, good AI's such as Zara

Really? I played the Noble's Club Ragnar back then (though that was not high sea level iirc), and the AI seemed to do okay.
My reasoning was:
The AI is bad at managing Great People and at whipping. Both things come from food, so let's do something without much food (arid).
Also, the AI is bad at being rushed. So let's choose a map that precludes rushing (Archipelago, high seas).
Okay, the AI is also bad at city placement... But so am I!

with this combination of AI's would be much better to make pangea map instead

Really? My opinion is that all of those AI's are rather easy rush targets, but pretty competent at REX. So all strategy involved in a Pangea game would be "who's closest" and "what strategic resources do I have". I can probably already do that on emperor.

Hmm, did a quick run for kicks... Seems they capitulate SOOOOO much easier on smaller sized maps.

Thank you! That will give me a very good yardstick to compare my play against. Easier capitulation might also be due to monarch difficulty, right?

 

[vranasm]

Really? My opinion is that all of those AI's are rather easy rush targets, but pretty competent at REX. So all strategy involved in a Pangea game would be "who's closest" and "what strategic resources do I have". I can probably already do that on emperor.

you should probably do low sea level pangea emperor game with these 4 opponents.
If you choose archipelago you limit actually the things they are very good at (REXing) and giving yourself unfair advantage.
And it's known fact that on archipelago maps the AI's have more problems with adapting due to artifical knowledge of player which AI doesn't have (they run the same AI for all type of maps, but archipelago is very different from your typical game)

 

[K.Murx]

Hmm, that sounds convincing. Alright, let's do the typical German thing and blindly rush a superior opponent:
I will try to beat obsolete's AD 1655 finish date.

Oh, and maybe I should explain the rather frequent updates/short intervals this game is played and updated: I should do some writing currently, which means I have plenty of time to think about the game (when I should be doing something else), and not much time to actually play the game (because then I feel guilty, as I should be doing something else).

Anyway, more small steps:
My above build order had a small flaw: I still needed to research fishing to build workboats. So build order was worker->warrior->WB->Settler.

Screenshot of the... err, tribe:

Spoiler :

The worker is building a mine, because... well, there is nothing else to do until BW has been researched. Prague is building a worker (more on that later).

Screenshot of the capital:

Spoiler :

I have to say, that is quite some impressive production!
Save attached.

Now for the plan: I am up against obsolete, so I will abuse the heck out of everything. This means settlers go unescorted (no barbs!), and I do my best to grab the three abusive early wonders: GLH, oracle (Code of laws will be useful) and of course the pyramids.

Now, the question is how do I get there?
I think my short term plan is pretty straightforward: Build WB, WB (growing to size 4 in the process) -> settler, settler. in the capital. This will take 12 turns if my math is not off.
Research to sailing after BW takes in total 14 turns. There is a 2 turn gap. Needs some tile swapping to time it right.

Then lighthouse in capital, chop a galley for the settlers in Prague with the worker under production now. Get the GLH in Aachen (times nicely with settling the next two cities). Go for priesthood, build oracle in Aachen. Grab CoL (should also net a religion. Sweet.).
While building the oracle, research the wheel and masonry. Hook up the stone, and go for the mids after the oracle. Research writing while building the mids. Whip libraries everywhere, and run scientists/representation.

Might miss the mids, however... Maybe oracle metal casting and try to grab a great engineer via forge? But I think then I need a forest to chop for the forge in prague... Which I wanted to use for a galley...
Will have to run some numbers. [edit] Scratch that, GLH and Oracle give +4 GPP in the capital... No way for engineer (+3 GPP) to beat that. Will have to build mids by hammer, axe and whip.

What micromanagement tricks are there to help me along? The only thing that comes to my mind is that I could interleave some warriors to whip into the wonders in Aachen whenever possible.
This actually works out nicely with size 4 (whip at 5) for Aachen. Hm... This means I do not need the clams (for producing the two settlers, the 4F2C clams are essentially equal to the 1F3H1C ivory) -> I have two workboats for scouting. Good.

 

[obsolete]

Easier capitulation might also be due to monarch difficulty, right?

Probably...

BTW, I think it would have been much better if your STONE-CITY had settled right on top of the stone.

 

[K.Murx]

BTW, I think it would have been much better if your STONE-CITY had settled right on top of the stone.

Care to elaborate?
I only see that It would have saved me 7 worker turns for hooking up the stone (but my workers are not exactly overworked anyway). Also, it would free up one grassland, which... err, I can cottage? After researching pottery (which is nowhere close on my tech path).

Settling on the spot where I was gave me fish in the first ring, which saved me building a monument to reach the food, and allowed a combined chop-whip of a galley. And the stone is essentially another engineer slot (minus the GPP, but +1 production) if I need production.

 

[obsolete]

You settle on stone and immediately build Henge... And why one earth would you want to make a cottage? Makes no sense whatsoever...

 

[K.Murx]

Turn 70, save attached.

[play to turn 80 described below]

GLH built (with more optimal play, I could have probably shaved a turn or two off):

Spoiler :

Scouting revealed a lot of unoccupied land to the east:

Spoiler :

There is some coast visible in the fog at the very NE corner of those lands, however
that will not be traversable until Astro or if someone builds a city there (I won't).
The dotmap is very preliminary, I might want to use the gold somehow. Would mean sharing the clams, but ... why not? Gold could be worth it.
No copper, though

Zara has said hello from the north, which makes the red spot my primary settling target:

Spoiler :

Actually, looking at this picture the city should obviously go one tile north or east. Sloppy dotmapping, sorry. The unit is a scout, btw.

The main lands:

Spoiler :

The SW city already has a monument (whipped), and will finish a lighthouse in 3 turns. The worker will road towards the horse.
The NW city (STONE_city) is building a settler for the red spot, which will be finished in 5 turns. I could whip him now, but I want to wait for writing so I can whip into a library.

The capital:

Spoiler :

I just lost 11 hammers from whipping that warrior. Had 8 overflow from the GLH, and will loose 6 turns of working a 3H grassland hill mine (18H). All for 15H overflow into the oracle, some gold and a stupid warrior that can... err... stand guard in the red city eventually.
Note that happiness won't be a problem, the ivory will be roaded in three turns. The forests are all pre-chopped.

Tech path was sailing -> masonry (as I noticed, needed that for GLH...) -> meditation, priesthood -> writing now. Not sure what to research next.

My short-term plan is to continue building the oracle, which should take about 10 turns with some chopping. Then chop the rest of my forests for the mids... Hopefully.

Long term I'll go for currency, settling some more of that eastern lands, and then go elepult Zara. If I get the mids, maybe I can even get to feudalism before destroying Zara completely, although with CoL, currency and GLH I might just wipe him off the map.

Mid term I am at a loss. Should I go for metal casting/colossus? It is off the tech tree to currency/construction, there is no copper and hammers are needed for eles and cats, but on the other hand, it is the colossus on an Archipelago map and forges are always useful for whipping.

Tentative tech path: Writing -> CoL (oracle) -> alphabet (might get something useful off Zara) -> mathematics -> currency -> construction -> HBR.

Should there be metal casting in there, or not? And where?

You settle on stone and immediately build Henge... And why one earth would you want to make a cottage? Makes no sense whatsoever...

Ah. So if I wanted to build the henge, then it would be better? I thought you had a more general idea in mind.
But a general question: You seem to be opposed to cottaging that grassland. However, what else am I supposed to do? Workshops seem useless until guilds, and farms are not available until biology.



[edit] Turn 80
Err... I forgot to save when taking all those screenshots. Had to replay from autosave, and could not bring myself to repeat that warrior whipping mistake.
So Oracle was built on turn 78, grabbed CoL as planned. Mathematics was in turn 80 (chops!), started chopping for the pyramids (due in 10 turns). Met Joao. Found the borders of Zara - will sign open borders and go scouting. If anyone wants to sneak in a settler, borders will close again.
The AI's are as disappointing as vranasm/Sian predicted. I am roughly one and a half as strong as the average, and poor Zara... well, he is not doing well. I'll put him out of his misery soon.
Picture of Zara's borders:

Spoiler :

Researching Alphabet now, will backtrade for pottery, archery, agriculture, etc.
Capital will become settler pump once pyramids are complete. Cities are building libraries, next builds are granaries/barracks.
Still thinking about that metal casting...

 

[K.Murx]

A short overview of the rest of the game: Got mids on turn 88. Got a bit bored/sloppy after that.

Catafant/Elepult war with Zara went badly at first (not enough siege), even if Zara had only archers/spearmen. I also did not build enough triremes for naval superiority, which made logistics a nightmare.

Zara capitulated 1010 AD.

Went to town on to Joao after some buildup (including Lib in 1240, went for Nationalism - mistake), who had longbows. But this time, I brought enough catapults...

Strangely enough, Joao had left many cities undefended for some reason. Those were extremely easy captures. The elepults petered out against some stupid hill city (which I should have just avoided), but by now mace/muskets/trebuchets were available. I also had galleons at the end, which made logistics much easier (although I lost far to many galleons to carracks at 75-85% odds).
Towards the end, cannons came online, and I simply built cannons and drafted muskets for the rest of the game.

Joao capitulated in 1530 AD.

By now, frigates were around, and I had met cathy - actually, one of those two-city "empires" I was warned about. She had a 6-city colony, though (Julius).

My cannons shot Cathy to pieces in 1625, and Julius capitulated in 1645.

Too bad that left Darius... At this point, I stopped building units, as I had more than enough to take him out. It was just a matter of ferrying stacks around, and waiting for him to cap.
He proved rather stubborn, and I had to capture roughly 6 or 7 cities of his until he capped in 1710.

Final score: 89k something.

I definitely need to work on my logistics, and on correct stack composition. It would have made those wars much faster...

Tech path was extremely sloppy towards the end, I should have used Lib for Astro.

The replay is attached for anyone interested.
Will watch obsolete's replay later.


Up next: The emperors strike back - same civs, pangea map, low sea level, emperor difficulty