Rhino's Return - Immortal Brennus

[OneLeggedRhino]

Showing Ragnar How It's Done (Turns 328-350, Years 220 BC - 1 AD)

Thanks for the comments everyone, glad you're enjoying the game.

A few turnsets ago, Ragnar had a pithy war against me. Now, it's time to show him how it's done.

I declare and move into position:

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Also, I'm quite glad to have that island city bringing in decent trade routes:

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Next turn, I lose one axe and take the city:

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There's no infrastructure and only 1 person. Which is pretty much all there is in any of his cities. Conquering Deity wonder whores has spoiled me.

We move on to his capital immediately:

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You might notice that I'm researching meditation. I intend to bulb philosophy if possible, so priesthood is basically a free tech due to the 20% savings on code of laws.

Also, I pillage Ragnar's iron. You can't see the iron because I haven't researched it, but a mine on flat grass is mighty suspicious.

Spoiler :

Probably a mistake, but I forgot about his copper in the North and thought this was his only metal. Oh well.

Here's probably the most interesting tactics of this war: Ragnar has a horse archer and a swordsman in the North.

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My axe and spear can defend them just fine, but cannot attack. And the horse archer could reasonably take a city with only one archer on defense. The zone defenders can't go off the road, because then they won't be able to catch the horse archer. So I move to the wheat, and wait.

Ragnar moves to fork my cities:

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I need to defend Gold, but if I commit to it, the HA can attack Furs before I can reinforce. Also, both of these cities have weak food, so I'd really rather not whip.

I split my stack, sending one extra defender to each city. I might lose a unit, but should hold the cities.

In the end, he attacks the northern city, and I win both battles. If I'd committed to Gold, though, I would have been in a tough spot.

150: Back to conquering. The zone defenders plus a few new units go down to attack Ragnar's city by Babricate:

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I take it with zero losses.

130: Ragnar's capital is finally seiged. I lose a couple catapults and take my third city.

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At this point, he's not really putting up a fight. I leave an archer and axe in each city, and move north:

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I burn the city to move it 1W and pick up the rice. (Water is good for Ragnar, with financial, but not so good for me, and I have enough city maintenance as it is.)

And at this point, I stop producing units and just build wealth, to get code of laws faster and pop borders on these new cities.

30 BC: Code of laws completes. I start courthouses, run some artists, and get 5 scientists in Babricate. Next Great Scientist in about 25 turns. I'll research alphabet, and hopefully bulb philosophy. Even if Taoism goes before then, spying on Joao will be useful.

Also in 30 BC, I roll up on the next city:

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No need to wait the turn for catapults. I just bombard, attack with axes, lose two and take the city

With most cities switching from wealth to courthouses, I'm in the red for a little while. And Joao has crossbows, which trash axes. So I did disband the few axes with only 3 exp. Every little bit helps.

1 AD: I raze Ragnar's last city. No more Vikings, and no more war weariness.

Spoiler :

I'm thinking about what to do next. Peaceful growth, or roll my stack into Joao? I don't really need more cities, but I have an army, and it would be nice to take a few of Joao's best spots to weaken him, so I can disband some of my army and finish him later. Because I definitely can't disband my stack without weakening him -- Joao is no Mansa Musa.

The immediate next objective, though, is to send a small stack to the island in the Northeast, take the Barb city, and get some good trade routes. I'll do that while I position my main stack to attack Joao next turnset.

 

[vranasm]

joao techs engineering, means he has machinery...if he has CS too, you would be in big trouble with attack.

nice job showcasing how effective on marathon is siege warfare... could you calculate how many turns you needed to capture all land (or is it those 22 turns from header)?

 

[plastiqe]

Dominant performance so far. I request a guerilla III tactics general with 80% withdrawal that you can risk to rack up massive gg points against Joao. See how high you can get him with Charismatic.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

@vranasm Yup, 22 turns from declaring war to eliminating vikings. Joao doesn't have CS, and I don't think he even has code of laws, so I should be safe. My guess is he's going for optics for his unique boat to claim islands. But thanks for the reminder (machinery didn't put my alert up, and it should have), now I'll definitely go and take his 2-3 best cities.

A couple things I did to make it fast, that I'll probably do next game too:

-As you build more troops, make a second stack. Send them to the out of the way city so your main stack doesn't trudge through the jungle forever. The second stack can be small, because those out of the way cities probably just have a couple defenders. 1-2 cats + 3-4 units and you just saved your main stack a ton of walking.

-Skip healing. Walk to the next city, start bombarding, and heal while you do it. It saves 1 turn getting everyone into the city and 2-3 turns healing. If we figure I'd have healed 3 times (the first 3 cities my main stack took), that's 10 turns saved.

@plastiqe Thanks, didn't even think of that. Usually, I like to get 1 GG healer (which I just did with a scout), then settle the rest in a production city. But an 80% withdraw canopener seems good.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

An Excellent Turnset (Turns 350-367, Years 1-170 AD)

Here's that barb city to the NE that I keep talking about:

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My galley will arrive in 11 turns. I leave 2 elephants, 2 axes and 2 cats to take care of it, and move the rest of my stack west toward Joao.

And here's the state of my cities at the start of the turnset:

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We're totally in infrastructure mode. But the stack I have left over from Ragnar should be enough to do some damage to Joao.

10 AD: Holy cow, I'm mediocre in research:

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I'm so used to being dead last, this is really a surprise.

And Christianity was founded. But Taoism (the one I'm shooting for) is still available. I'm holding my breath every turn.

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There was a discussion recently about working coast. There's one extra reason to work coast and grow an island city: Trade routes get a boost. It's pretty modest, though.

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Island Fish is size 11. I'd thought it would raise the base value to 1.10, which is much better. No dice. Maybe you need a larger island with multiple cities for that? Anyone know?

90: My stack arrives in the west. I send a spear to scout. He finds:

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Joao has his pants down. I swear, I'm so used to aggressive AI, this just looks like a cakewalk. I would declare right now, except I need the trade routes to keep my economy going.

140: I'm almost ready to take the barb city. But the barbs have seen my boat, and they want it.

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I get the second load of troops over, then it sinks. But a cat, 2 axes and an elephant take the city just fine.

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170: Alphabet and the GS complete on the same turn. I'd been starving Babricate to make that happen, and building wealth in a couple cities too. I bulb Philosophy, and found Taoism in Island Fish. Finally, we have a religion.

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Next, I'm thinking Iron Working to bust that jungle:

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Though I am dependent on Joao for happiness resources. And if I take his cities, I'll need Calendar to benefit from the resources. I'll decide next turnset.

On the economic front, you can see these 2 island cities mean I don't need Joao's trade routes anymore:

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If you've ever wondered why your economy tanked when you declared war, this may be it.

And on the military front, Joao still has his pants down:

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Here's the plan:

• Take Oporto and Lisbon, raze the other city in that screenshot.
• Raze anything pressuring those cities.
• Make peace.

I'll wipe Joao out later, so I'm not worried about the diplo hit from razing cities. For now, I just want to cripple him. And I want to avoid over-expanding, and also don't want to put my cities to military production. So, 3-4 cities then peace. That also leaves Joao around to spy on, which will be important for taking on the other AIs.

Also of interest: That barb city isn't on some tiny island. The island extends to the east. I'll explore that next turnset, too.

 

[WelshGandalf]

Island Fish is size 11. I'd thought it would raise the base value to 1.10, which is much better. No dice. Maybe you need a larger island with multiple cities for that? Anyone know?

I think the base value that you see is based on the size of the other city, ie 1.00 for cities of size 10 or less, 1.1 for size 11 and so on.

 

[Um the Muse]

Krikkitone's article in the War Academy said: "In BTS the info is more clearly explained in the popup
Each trade route is
Base Value= minimum of
Distance factor (Distance * World Size Factor)
Population factor (Population of city you are trading with /10)
... but no less than 1.00 (rounded down to nearest 0.01)
This then gets a bonus
+5% for each pop of This city above 10..."

In other words, WelchGandalf was right: the 5% bonus doesn't count towards the base commerce. The other city's population only counts if it's smaller than the distance, basically.

 

[Keilah]

So basically there's a maximum value based on distance which presumably is pretty high, but you can only reach that maximum if the city's population grows > 10.
If the city you're trading with has a max value based on distance of just 1, then growing won't matter... is that correct?

 

[Um the Muse]

I forget exactly how the computer computes distances, but IIRC the population of the other city is usually the limiting factor.

But hey, that's even better, right? That means that Rhino's domestic traderoutes become beaucoup good when he grows the island cities larger.

Though maybe it's not true for a huge map. I really don't know

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Thanks guys. That's actually what was confusing me: The island city was size 11, so I thought there would be a base value of 1.10. I'll do some more testing later too.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

A Small War (Turns 367-404, Years 170-520 AD)

First question: What to tech? Iron working, to clear the jungle in the South? Calendar for resources? Or monarchy for happiness?

There is only one health and two happiness to be gained from calendar:

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Not all that impressive. And after declaring on Joao, you can see that I'm at the limit of both happiness and health:

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I lost two happiness resources from declaring.

So not a lot to be gained from monarchy. Iron working it is.

200: Joao's first city is bombarded down. I take it easily, and raze it. (It's only good squares would be used by West Copper and Lisbon).

Spoiler :

Then my stack moves to the forest hill, and chills for a while. Joao attacks with catapults, crossbows and swords, kills a few units, but loses more than he gets. But it delays me healing, since I have to cross some flatland to get anywhere interesting.

In the Northeast, I discover a third good spot for an island city. I don't want to support another city just yet, but nice to know it's there.

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280: Sending a galley to that island to clear out some barbs, I discover something interesting:

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One archer, in the city in my back yard? That's just asking for trouble. And, without resources, he can't whip anything threatening. I send a newly-produced catapult and elephant, along with a zone-defender axe. More on that in a minute.

300: Joao makes an absolutely adorable attack.

Spoiler :

It might be threatening, actually, if I didn't have a handful of elephants waiting to join the front. And they'd be out of the city, except they've been smashing individual units that Joao's been sending. So maybe not so silly. But as is, it loses him a handful of units.

320: Time to take Joao's isolated city. I time all three units to arrive the same turn, bombard once, and take it with no losses.

Spoiler :

The city comes with three people, a granary and a lighthouse. I like Joao much better the Ragnar.

Also, I finally have Lisbon bombarded down. But by now, he has pikes for my elephants and crossbows for my axes. I expect this attack to go badly.

Spoiler :

So I make peace. Joao has lost a lot more units than me, he's lost two cities, and I've gained one. He's not as crippled as I'd like, but he's definitely hurting. Plus he throws in some cash:

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I can see he's been practicing that beard-stroke.

Time for a peace economy. I swap back to caste, and take pacifism. With the troops I have at the moment, it costs an extra 10 GPT. But, with only one border with Joao now, I manage to disband 5+ backline defenders. If a city isn't front-line, and isn't big enough to need the happiness, why spend 2 GPT on an archer? On the whole, I get double GPP for free.

330: Iron working completes. Where's the iron?

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Joao has one, there's one in the desert between us, one that we knew about from Ragnar's city, and one just out of reach:

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If I'd known, I might have razed the city. Oh well.

Next is calendar. There are only 3 types of resources, but I have a lot of tiles to improve. Plus, 2 happiness and a health is nothing to sneeze at.

My cities under pacifism:

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That's before disbanding the units.

Also, I'd forgotten to check techs when I got alphabet. Let's do that now:

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Joao is up calendar and engineering. He just finished horseback riding, and he's working on compass. But he's down the entire mysticism line, currency, alphabet, and code of laws. So we're around even.

For the next 15 turns, I bust jungle and manage city growth. I send a few galleys to northeastern island to clear barbs, and make a few work boats. Nothing worthy of a screenshot.

510: Joao completes Notre Dame. He also has the mausoleum and the hanging Gardens.

Spoiler :

I'm 100% in favor of him making more wonders.

520: Calendar completes. I already developed dyes from the city formerly known as Joao's, and spices and bananas on the way.

I pick Monarchy next, thinking to go Feudalism then Civil Service with a 20% research bump, but I'm not sure. Maybe just beeline CS to farm all Ragnar's lands?

Either way, I'm planning to steal Machinery for maces, Optics to try for the movement bonus, then see about taking Engineering, since Joao has elephants now. Compared to most games, this is actually not much stealing.

With that in mind, I trade Joao copper for 4 GPT, to hopefully get him to like me again and open borders. (Better spy odds).

Also, the next GS builds an Academy to Babricate:

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Shaves three turns off monarchy.

My cities at the end of the turnset:

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Also, I'd finally grabbed east stone, by that city of Ragnar's that I razed. It has a rice, a cow, a few hills, and enough forest to give it a jumpstart. And it's built on stone, so I can build Moai for failgold.

So, not as clean a war as I'd like. But I have 14 cities, and Joao has 7. It shouldn't take too long to get those cities online and win round two.

 

[Um the Muse]

Why would you raze a decent city just to grab a second source of iron?

Also, did you check to see if you're getting a higher base rate in cities that are trading with your island city? Is that actually getting you more commerce? I rather doubt that it's enough, but you never know.

Bad luck with Joao getting pikes. Did you notice that you would've been fighting across a river?

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Why would you raze a decent city just to grab a second source of iron?

I probably wouldn't. But I would have thought about it. As is, I might squeeze in another city 1N of the iron, but most likely, the iron is just a dead square. Which makes me

On the commerce: Yeah, the shot was of Babricate's trade route with Island Fish. Both were size 11. I'll try to take some better shots later on.

On crossing the river: I was hoping Joao would keep running his stacks into mine as I bombarded. So I took the best defensive position to bombard, planning to cross the river, bombard with 1 cat, and attack with the rest. It's slower, but a lot can go wrong when you're sitting for 4 turns on flatland.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Joao Gets Feisty (Turns 404-423, Years 520-615 AD)

First question: What to research? A lot of cities are working on infrastructure -- courthouses and granaries -- and I need to spread Taoism around. Monotheism seems like a good option.

Spoiler :

It will also speed up monarchy, if I decide to go for it.

525: Joao demands some gold.

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Look at those puffy eyes. He looks like Rocky Balboa after taking on Mr. T.

I think about it, because my plan is to develop Ragnar's cities before the next war. But I definitely don't want to speed up his research, I don't really care about our diplo, and while I can't effectively attack him, he sure as heck can't attack me.

I tell him to get lost, knowing it may trigger a war.

540: Taoism spreads to Lisbon, and I get vision on the city. Lots of infrastructure, settled great general, and poorly managed citizens. Nothing surprising, but nice to know.

Spoiler :

575: Joao declares war.

I'm disappointed. I wanted to declare on him. I had this great plan to sabotage his iron (his only metal), and have a second spy there for when he rebuilt. It would have made a great write-up, but I don't have any spare spies right now.

I do swap most cities from scientists to production. Beakers per turn drops from 73 to 22, and production goes way up. That's one of my favorite things about focusing on specialists instead of cottages.

Next turn, he moves two stacks next to West Copper:

Spoiler :

One stack lacks Pikes, the other lacks crossbows. They both go down faster than a fat, drunk prom date.

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My prom dates all took a catapult down with them, too.

A few turns later, Joao blockades my island city, which starts starving hard.

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Over the next few turns, I whip an aqueduct, a Temple, and two missionaries to bring the city to size 1, which is all it can support without seafood.

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I also whip a few of courthouses and a couple troops in other cities.

While Joao is screwing around with his boats, I've moved my stack to that convenient forest, preparing to raze Braga again.

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His pike does well against my catapults, but the city doesn't last long.

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615: My stack arrives at Lisbon. This time he doesn't have a spare stack to run into it en route, and my forces arrive intact.

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Rather than sit vulnerable on flatland while I heal and bombard, I send the city into revolt, and conquer it immediately.

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I got lucky with the revolt, but I'd already lost three spies just standing around his cities.

It's a nice capture. Notre Dame, in particular, will help with the war effort. And Joao is down to 5 cities.

There's a half-health pike and a crossbow attacking West Copper. They'll probably kill some units, but I have three defenders, so the city is safe. After that, Joao will probably be ready to talk. I'll see what he offers for peace, because it might be good to rebuild my stack a bit before attacking Oporto.

Also, techs. I decided on monarchy because (1) it's cheap enough that I might get it in time to help with the war (this was before taking Notre Dame), and (2) Mercantilism will be really good this game, and that path requires feudalism. Might as well get it before civil service for the 20% bump.

 

[WelshGandalf]

About the trade routes, I think you need to get to size 13-14 to get internal overseas trade routes to give you 3 commerce. I did a little table to show this.

The list on the left is the size of the city receiving the trade route, the ones along the top are the cities the trade routes come from (the island cities in this game). So if the island is size 13, the table says your non-island city needs to be at least size 12 to qualify for a trade route of 3 from it.

I haven't tested it but I think it's right. Harbours will screw things around, but I think they will make that city more likely to have foreign trade routes anyway.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Dude that's awesome. Thanks so much for making that chart!

 

[Keilah]

unfortunately i believe that chart is based on the incorrect assumption that Bibracte gets more trade value with the island city as long as the island city is > size 10. I can't test it at the moment but I believe the island city has to be BOTH larger than size 10 AND distant from Bibracte, as pointed out earlier in this thread by Um the Muse.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

My Bureaucratic Capital (Turns 423-445, Years 615-725 AD)

"Bureaucratic capital?" you say. "Silly Rhino, you've made zero cottages this entire game. You can't just decide to make a bureaucratic capital in 600 AD."

Indeed, Babricate is a terrible bur cap. But look at Oporto (via espionage):

Spoiler :

Joao even put an academy there, and already worked those cottages through their weak 2C phase. Thanks, buddy.

But here's my stack, and his defenders:

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Not gonna happen. I'll let the chin-stroker buy peace:

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I don't care about our diplo, so re-declaring in 10 turns is just fine.

630: Remember all those whips in my blockaded island city? They generated a ton of overflow:

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Failgold, here I come.

645: Joao founds another city. He really wants that elephant.

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Mostly, it's annoying because I can't bring new troops to my stack in Lisbon.

670: Louie XIV says hi. Not that surprising, since Joao would have gotten optics by now if not for me, but I guess I can kiss circumnavigation goodbye.

Louie is teching quite well:

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Gulp.

He only has eight cities, though, so long-term, I should be able to overtake him. And a lot of his GNP comes from culture:

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Still, I think France is the one to beat.

Also, I finally find Joao's other city. And it has Taoism! This will be my main theft target.

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685: Time for the next war with the Joao. His new city doesn't last very long:

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But Oporto gets a few more defenders. Too risky to attack just yet.

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I bring in two more catapults. They're undefended briefly, but if he leaves the city to attack them, I can just take the city. Once they arrive, the city falls in two turns:

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And what a city it is. Hanging Gardens, an Academy, and a bunch of mature cottages.

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I have my bureaucratic capital. Elephanto, just east of Babricate, will get the forbidden palace.

Since it's not culture crushed, let's make peace again. At this point, Joao is boxed in, and down to four cities. He's a sitting duck whenever I'm ready to finish him off.

But first, I need to rob him. I specifically left him Navajo, since it's his only city with Taoism. I grab machinery and compass, then run out of EPs.

Spoiler :

Yeah, I stacked my spies. Dropped the success chances from 90 to 70. But I don't care about the diplo hit, it's late enough that spies are fairly cheap hammer-wise, and I want to grab the techs fast.

Soon enough, I'll grab engineering and optics, and then he's finished. (He's researching techs I already have at this point.)

Also, if I'm lucky, Joao will claim any tiny islands with his super-carvels and keep Louie from expanding to them later.

I also swap back to caste system and pacifism, and generally back to research. My concern isn't Joao any longer, it's Louie and the other AIs.

On Techs: I got monarchy using the money Joao paid for peace. I thought about going straight for civil service, but the 20% savings with feudalism seemed like a good idea, since I'll want it soon anyway. It might be an error, though, because chain irrigation would help Ragnar's cities a lot, and they're coming online now. We'll see.

I will focus on research over espionage, though. Just a courthouse and a spy in every city should be plenty to steal the last techs.

Long-term, I have four more cities to settle peacefully, and another four from conquering Joao. Before long I'll have 3x as many cities as Louie.

Next turnset: Building and researching. Hopefully no war.

 

[CivSetä]

Lurker post to get rid of "it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks"-message: I really enjoy reading your writeups. Good work!

 

[WelshGandalf]

unfortunately i believe that chart is based on the incorrect assumption that Bibracte gets more trade value with the island city as long as the island city is > size 10. I can't test it at the moment but I believe the island city has to be BOTH larger than size 10 AND distant from Bibracte, as pointed out earlier in this thread by Um the Muse.

You're right, I assume that distance doesn't come into it (ie that the "size" option of the base trade value is lower than the distance value).

I've been half-testing this in a current game, which is on a very watery map, so all the trade routes are "intercontinental". As my first few cities got to size 13, my internal trade routes were still all only of value 2 (you can check this in the "foreign" summary screen). This is because my biggest cities were getting foreign trade routes rather than domestic ones, as they got the most benefit from them.

However things changed when my biggest city hit size 14. As per my above chart, this means that a trade route from it to any other of my cities would get 3 commerce (with the proviso about distance). I have 17 cities, and I cycled through them all. 12 of them had a trade route with my size 14 city; 9 of them were 3 commerce and 3 of them were still at 2 commerce. The ones that were still at 2 were because they were too close to the capital so didn't use 1.4 as the base value, eg one of them had a base value of 1.32 instead ( * 1.25 = 2.97 so just short).

So, just by getting my biggest city from size 13 to 14, this resulted in 9 more commerce across my empire. I expect a similar increase when my 2nd city gets to size 14 too. I think this is a pretty good reward & hope the information is useful In reference to this game, you may not get the 3 commerce where you want it most, but you should get it somewhere.

One postnote - my biggest city was in the middle of the empire, if you get a city on the edge of your empire to size 14 instead it will have marginally more benefit as the distance limitation will apply to fewer cities.