Rhye's and Fall of Africa

[angelitocarc]

Spoiler :

seeing this image ive get an idea, there yould be some tribes of barbs as non playeable civilization with leaders that can grant their friendship easily but they can get angry very easy too

 

[Dumanios]

Maybe have the Boer Republics as a faction that spawns if a European nation has significant control of South Africa.

 

[veBear]

I made an Africa map not long ago that you could use (with accurate resource placement) and currently me and Cybrxkhan are creating loads of african civs. Maybe some of those could be used? Currently we're working on a cooperation project on the Kingdom of Zimbabwe.

 

[Optical]

I saw that, and immediately thought of this. Yeah, I think it'd be just about perfect - and of course I'm sure whatever civs you guys have been doing would be great, with your track records

 

[veBear]

I saw that, and immediately thought of this. Yeah, I think it'd be just about perfect - and of course I'm sure whatever civs you guys have been doing would be great, with your track records

I'm honoured

 

[Ekolite]

I think the idea that Ancient Egypt shouldn't be included in a Rise and Fall of Africa mod is insanity to be honest. They are one of the oldest civilizations on the planet, and the very epitome of an African ''Rise''. It's possible for turns in the early part of the game to represent a great many years, so the idea that there would be hundreds of turns of just Egypt is not true. It would be no different really to how it is in RFC.

 

[MariusMR]

For a very comprehensive (and academic) overview of the Rise and Fall of Africa, I would recommend a standard text by Kevin Shillington entitled "History of Africa" (2nd Edition).

I would gladly assist in the historical aspects of the game, as an African and South African with some formal academic training in African history. I have no experience or skills with modding or coding Civ4, but I can provide input elsewhere.

Especially to rebut the silly notions of there having been no "rise" of Africa beyond the borders of Ancient Egypt.

Look at the last couple of hundred year of African history; they haven't been doing well. A protracted Fall if I ever saw one.

 

[cybrxkhan]

veBear just pointed me to your thread, so if you guys ever have specific requests for African civs, don't hesitate to post in my thread or veBear's threads, as we're happy to deal with a region that's sort of underrepresented in the CFC modding community.

Anyhow, I'll be happy to see if anyone actually starts dealing with this.

 

[veBear]

There are many lists here, and there should be worked to provide an official one. This list could of course have some changes later on, but until then, an official list there shall be. Here are some civs that I think should be in with Starting year placed in (). I here have set the starting date to 2000 BC, but this can of course be changed. I have also used my Africa map as main source of Inspiration to this conserning which civilisations to include, with a height addition enough to include Spain and Turkey. I suggest a timespan from 2000 BC to 1985, allowing respawns and capping off just before AIDS established a firm and tight foothold on the continent.
- Egypt (2000 BC)
- Nok Culture (1000 BC) - Respawn as Oyo ca. 1400 AD - Sokoto if Islamic
- Carthage (800 BC) or Phoenicians (1200 BC) - Respawn as Hafsids ca. 1230
- Persia (750 BC (Start of the Medes))
- Ethiopia (700 BC (Start of D'mt culture)
- Kanem-Bornu (600 BC)
- Arabia (620 AD (Start of the Rashidun Caliphate))
- Swahili (ca. 650 AD)
- Hausa (1000 AD)
- Morocco (1040 AD (Start of Almoravid Dynasty))
- Zimbabwe (1070 AD (Start of Mapungubwe))
- Mali (1230 AD)
- Mamluks (1250 AD) - Conditional spawn: only if Arabia is Unstable or Collapsed
- Ottomans (1300 AD)
- Somalia (1410 (Start of Adal Sultanate))
- Kongo (1390 AD)
- Songhai (1460 AD (Beginning of the reign of Sonni Ali)) - Conditional spawn: only if Mali is Unstable or Collapsed
- Iberia (Portugal/Spain) (1500 AD (Vasco da Gama sails around Africa)) - Together due to low influence by Spain, huge by Portugal - Colonial Empire
- Merina/Madagascar (1540 AD (Beginning of the reign of Andrimanelo))
- France (1630 (colony formed at Senegal)) - Colonial Empire - Start in Senegal
- Britain (1660 (capture of James Island, The Gambia) - Colonial Empire - Capital at Bunce Island, Sierra Leone
- Ashanti (1670 AD)
- Oman (1690 AD) - Colonial Empire
- Dutch (1700 AD) - Colonial Empire - Start in South Africa
- Zulu (1720 (Start of the reign of Mageba kaGumede)

I believe this should be enough. This would give a total of 25 nations, including many early ones that could respawn later on. Thoughts?

 

[Buddhafish]

That looks like a really good list. One question though: How would Persia fit in? Unless they would take more of a Mesopotamian role.

 

[Leoreth]

The Persian Empire controlled Egypt, I guess that's where they're coming into play (but I suppose we'd need Macedonia/Ptolemids and Romans then as well).

 

[Optical]

I like that list - and it covers the start well. Only thought: how does Egypt go 1000 years by itself without winning?

 

[christos200]

Maybe you should add many barbs near egypt so the player or AI must focus on defence instead of expansion.

 

[veBear]

I like that list - and it covers the start well. Only thought: how does Egypt go 1000 years by itself without winning?

I thought maybe of rushing the first 1000 years and then use many turns on the next 1000 years... then they will soon be surrounded by Persia, Carthage/Phoenicia, Hausa, Ethiopia and Kanem-Bornu. Actually, Including the Romans could be an idea as they was Important, and there is a huge lack of civs from that Era. They would be heavily conquest-related. I don't think the Ptolemids would need to be included though, as they can basically be represented by a leaderchange for Egypt.

@Buddafish
As noted in my previous post, I based the civ list on my africa-map, slightly expanded through some easy editing. This map includes the whole Arabian peninsuela and south turkey, and the edit version for your mod will then include all of Iberia, Turkey, Italy and Greece. I still don't think the greeks should be represented as a civ in this mod though, as they did not leave that lasting impression in Africa as the Romans did. They could be Independent Cities.

For everyone else, here's some reasons to include Rome:
- Much Warmongering (for war-loving players)
- Historically accurate way to fill the southern parts of Europe until the arrival of the Spaniards and the Ottomans
- They left a lasting mark in history... also African, founding many of the cities there
- Easy to create UHVs (control Greece, the Maghrib and Spain by XYZ AD - control Egypt, Turkey and Phoenicia XYZ AD etc. etc.)

 

[christos200]

Also persia could spaw with only a bunch of units and a great general near egypt.

 

[Optical]

^ Actually, that's a pretty good idea.

 

[Leoreth]

All these non-African civs should work that way (Macedonians, Romans, Arabs) in my opinion.

 

[MariusMR]

I agree with Leoreth.

I perhaps had high hopes for this potential addition to the RFC genre, but it seems that it is instead turning out to be an RFC Mediterranean with a sub-saharan appendage.

 

[mitsho]

That's why I argued we don't need Egypt! But this project will never get done anyways. I can repeat my arguments from before again though in a few sentences:

1) You need a UNIQUE focus! (Rise and Fall of the Mediterranean/the Ancient World would be awesome, but that's not Africa)
2) You need some fun concepts/problems! (Gold/Salt/Slave Trade)
3) You need a fun map (no large swaths of rainforest or desert, as they are mostly boring + enough interaction possible)
4) IMHO, Gameplay > Historical Simulation

From these points onward, Persia was just a conqueror of Egypt for a few turns, many of the Supra-Saharan (?) Civs were oriented much more to the Mediterranean sea. If you cut that away, they lose gameplay value. If you take that in, you got Rise and Fall of the Mediterranean. So you need some mechanism to include the Persians, Greeks, Romans and Ottomans to make Egypt, Carthage and the Berbers worthwile. the Arabs are a special case though, interacting with Ethiopia).

 

[Leoreth]

The whole problem with this is that sub-Saharan and Northern Africa are, from a historical perspective, two different continents. They didn't interact that much (the only thing I could think of is Almoravid expansion into West Africa), and had vastly different speeds of development.

Northern Africa was heavily tied in into the Mediterranean and the Middle East, so including it would mean to include these two as well, which would degrade Africa into a sideshow.

So in my opinion, for an Africa mod to work, you need to make the map end with the Sahara in the north. So it could focus on actual African civilizations without Romans, Arabs, Turks and whatever stealing all the spotlight.