[R&F] Rise and Fall Live Stream General Thread

[sonicmyst]

There are several things to prevent conquered cities from flipping:
- Governors.
- Planning conquest near your cities (will not work if you start conquering on another continent, though).
- Cultural alliances with nearby civs, so their loyalty don't interfere.
- Global sources of Amenities (Luxury resources).
- Local sources of Amenities (i.e. specific Policy Cards, like Retainers).

Overall it's manageable, but needs planning. If it works like this, it should be great.

I also would like to think that hitting a Golden Era is also a good opportunity to expand / conquer. Combine it with proper governor placement, there should be no big issue with negative loyalties.

 

[KayAU]

I'm not sure I see it as quite so positive. Military campaigns won't be much fun if conquered cities keep constantly flipping back to the enemy. This was a very frustrating element in Civ III.

At the very least there should be a "martial law" capability to prevent this by stationing troops in or near the city. A mechanic in which military units can capture a city but somehow can't prevent it from changing sides is a little bit silly.

I do however like Loyalty as being a counter to forward-settling.

While I see you point, I do think it is generally a good thing that military campaigns are a bit more tricky, and require a bit more planning and consideration. Currently, it is just so incredibly easy to just roll right over the AI, with no worry for any pushback, and no effort required to hold things together afterwards.

I think there are ways to compensate for loyalty city flipping already, although you may be right that you should be able to do something with your military to help prevent or slow down flipping, at least temporarily.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I also would like to think that hitting a Golden Era is also a good opportunity to expand / conquer. Combine it with proper governor placement, there should be no big issue with negative loyalties.

But you need to be careful to not get hit by Dark Age in the middle of the campaign

 

[GermanSettler]

At left side panel there is "Snow City". I do not have Civ VI installed at the moment, is that something new? Thanks.

Not sure anyone answered you yet.

It is one of the minor achievements that give you era score.

I guess it is for founding a city on a snow tile.

 

[IdiotStyle]

doesn't leaving a garrison reduce loyalty loss?

 

[acluewithout]

England must have a boost to loyalty in other continents (similar to Spain, maybe +X loyalty to your civ on your non-home continent if they have a garnison or a royal dockyard).

I thought England might get loyalty for garissoned units off continent too, but now I’m not so sure. First, I think there is already a new policy card which gives loyalty for garrisoned
units (replacing or changing Retainers). Second, this bonus would also presumably be part of Pax Britanica, but then that would mean only England’s leader had a buff to deal with loyalty, and not England itself (which would make alternate leaders tricky). My guess is they’ll be a loyalty buff for RND or maybe trade
routes generate loyalty somehow (although that’s close to the Dutch leader’s ability).

I really hope England is updated - they’re my go to civ. Loyalty is a problem for them because they build cities off continent. But the trader nerf also hits England hard too (good grief, now I have to build a RND, and a CH, and a lighthouse, and a Market!). So England need a strong boost; but at the same time, I like how England lacks gimmicks (except Pax Britianica, which is very situational) and isn’t over-powered. So I’m hoping any boost will balance that.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I really hope England is updated - they’re my go to civ. Loyalty is a problem for them because they build cities off continent. But the trader nerf also hits England hard too (good grief, now I have to build a RND, and a CH, and a lighthouse, and a Market!). So England need a strong boost; but at the same time, I like how England lacks gimmicks (except Pax Britianica, which is very situational) and isn’t over-powered. So I’m hoping any boost will balance that.

I'm pretty sure Royal Navy Dock has some changes, since its ability relates to trade routes which aren't granted by districts anymore. Had anyone noticed anything about it in the streams?

 

[masda_gib]

Since it came up in the thread: The Oracle already gives +2 great people points per type right now. So no buff there.

 

[Giskler]

I thought England might get loyalty for garissoned units off continent too, but now I’m not so sure. First, I think there is already a new policy card which gives loyalty for garrisoned
units (replacing or changing Retainers). Second, this bonus would also presumably be part of Pax Britanica, but then that would mean only England’s leader had a buff to deal with loyalty, and not England itself (which would make alternate leaders tricky). My guess is they’ll be a loyalty buff for RND or maybe trade
routes generate loyalty somehow (although that’s close to the Dutch leader’s ability).

I really hope England is updated - they’re my go to civ. Loyalty is a problem for them because they build cities off continent. But the trader nerf also hits England hard too (good grief, now I have to build a RND, and a CH, and a lighthouse, and a Market!). So England need a strong boost; but at the same time, I like how England lacks gimmicks (except Pax Britianica, which is very situational) and isn’t over-powered. So I’m hoping any boost will balance that.

There's a new policy card (military) called Limitanei that gives +2 loyalty in cities with a garrisoned unit.

 

[Giskler]

I was thinking of just going through videos and screencapping all the new policy cards while waiting for new videos to be posted. Not sure if they have been collected before. I already looked through most of them for Golden Age dedications and found nothing new.

 

[Tomice]

There are several things to prevent conquered cities from flipping:
- Governors.
- Planning conquest near your cities (will not work if you start conquering on another continent, though).
- Cultural alliances with nearby civs, so their loyalty don't interfere.
- Global sources of Amenities (Luxury resources).
- Local sources of Amenities (i.e. specific Policy Cards, like Retainers).

Overall it's manageable, but needs planning. If it works like this, it should be great.

doesn't leaving a garrison reduce loyalty loss?

There's a new policy card (military) called Limitanei that gives +2 loyalty in cities with a garrisoned unit.

At least with the policy card garrisoned units prevent flipping (to a certain extent).
I hope they give loyalty even without the policy though, and that the card merely increases the amount.
Occupying troops not giving any "loyalty" as a base would be very unrealistic IMO.

 

[stealth_nsk]

At least with the policy card garrisoned units prevent flipping (to a certain extent).
I hope they give loyalty even without the policy though, and that the card merely increases the amount.
Occupying troops not giving any "loyalty" as a base would be very unrealistic IMO.

Realism is questionable argument, it could justify anything. Some could argue occupying troops should actually decrease loyalty.

 

[AriochIV]

It doesn't seem like +2 loyalty would be enough to keep cities from flipping, but we'll just have to see how it works in practice together with other measures.

The alternative is having to raze cities and rebuild them, which doesn't seem very desirable to me.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It doesn't seem like +2 loyalty would be enough to keep cities from flipping, but we'll just have to see how it works in practice together with other measures.

The alternative is having to raze cities and rebuild them, which doesn't seem very desirable to me.

Rebuilt cities will be under even heavier pressure, unless you burn all nearby cities to the ground first. Total extermination before resettling could be viable strategy in terms of loyalty.

 

[KayAU]

Currently watching the second part of Quill18's Let's Play, and it seems the Cree land grab works the way you would expect based on the description, grabbing land for at least the sending and receiving cities, but probably any Cree city it touches. It is what I expected, but it is lovely to watch in practice. It connects your territory, provides permanent visibility around your trade routes, and seals off terrain.

 

[Giskler]

 

[KayAU]

Another minor thing I was happy to notice, is that the tooltip for Mekewap contained all the relevant information about its bonuses, including what it gains as you progress in technology. They have not always been as clear for unique improvements (I'm looking at you, Kampung), so this is a welcome improvement.

 

[Giskler]

Spoiler Tech tree :

Unobscured view of Lake Retba quote.

 

[Uberfrog]

Spoiler Tech tree :

Oh, Military Tactics...

Why on Earth do Firaxis insist on keeping it disconnected from the rest of the tree, even as they keep adding UUs to it?

This screenshot also shows how the Medieval era is just dying to have a naval tech (and unit) in there. I think they've really missed an opportunity to flesh out and rebalance the tech and unit lines with this expansion.

 

[Proclo]

Not sure if I like the game era changes. Sometimes it was important to control when the next era should start, e.g. if you wanted to fulfill city state quests.

In any case the hole City-State mission system is pure garbage. I was hoping it will have a rework, but I guess will have to wait for a new update/expansion/dlc/mod...