Rise from Erebus 1.30 Bug Thread

[Niveras]

It is displayed in the pedia entry.

How terribly derp of me. I had actually loaded the game up to check for myself, I don't know how I missed it. Maybe the coloring made it hard to see. Oh well.

 

[Calavente]

as for mutation, after reading many comments, I propose my analysis :
you said Valk, that mutation is 50/50 good/bad.

If I understood the comments (never having mutated a unit in 1.3)
the good and bad effects are affected to the mutated unit with a 50/50 ratio.
meaning, each mutation gets almost half good effects and almost half bad effects. Meaning that in most cases the bad effects balance the good ones, per mutation.
In the end, most mutation are neutral. or weakly good or weakly bad.
on a +50 -50 range, I would say most mutations are in the +10/-10 range.

People would be IMO happier with having mutations that are +50/+30 good or -30/-50 bad (with a 50% occurence of good or of bad mutations when you cast the spell). Meaning the mutations are overtly good are clearly bad. You know if the unit is to be kept or if you have to scrap it/suicide-bomb it.

said with other words : people would be happier if good mutations were balanced by bad mutations on an army basis but that each mutated unit has a clearly good or clearly bad mutation, some with a bit of the opposite, and some good being better than some other good and the reverse.

Maybe the mutation algorithm could first decide randomly a "total effect of promotion" on a +50-50 axis, weigthed more heavily in the extremities (inverse gaussian),
then apply the mutations, taking into account the total effect
-ex :
-random +30 good :
-+10%*6 = +30 good
- -6FS : -30 good
-+10%heal*2 after combat = +20 good
-+1 mvt : +10 good
total = 30-30+20+10 = 30
I don't know how you weighted the different +/- promotions. That can be a matter of balance.

I hope my analysis is not warped. and That my proposition can be of use.

 

[Ghostslayer]

Thanks for your answer.

Glad you like it.
Shouldn't be able to lose Mutated; I'll check it out.

It did happen...

As for the balance: Right now it is 50/50 good and negative. I'm planning to rewrite the weight method, and weight it more towards positive effects than negative (though negative may be stronger! Depends on how much I weight it). As for effects being limited... They more or less are. What's happening is you are pulling the same promotion multiple times. It's only limited in number for each promo generation.

Mutations were supposed to be good on the average (otherwise it would not make sense to have a level 2 spell with it). Many nasty muts could be removed by a priest or the pool. The only unremovable nasty one were weak, enervated, sensibility to fire or something else, and crazed (which is not so nasty) IIRC. None made your unit completely useless. And sometimes it was even good to have a weak unit with for instance 2 extra movement.
50/50 is not balanced. A unit with +70% str, -70% healing is not balanced, it is negative (except with a stockpile of healing salves or Sirona or for a suicide mission). And the opposite is even worse.

As for your points about the old system:

1. I agree, less clear, but FAR less cluttered, and overall better IMO.
2. You are only seeing Dynamic Mutations. That is only one half of the system, but the other half simply cannot be done until I have added multiple new tags.
3. That last point is balance, and I've already addressed it.

Curious about the second part of the system.

On lairs:

• Doubtful, but I'm going over lairs in 1.31 anyway. Once I finish my side-project, that is.
• Dragon Bones was removed as a Unique Feature (they are placed when dragons die, instead); I've seen Pristin Pass a few times, but I've also had games without it. Will look into it.

OK for Dragon bones. I am absolutely certain to never have seen an item in a lair (but I was maybe unlucky).
And for the Pass also. Easy to verify. Just start a new game with "all unique" checked and you do not have Pristin Pass.

You did not answered for the "hidden mutation" bug. There is a graphical illustration at the end of the post.
In the first one, the scout has combat3 and subdue. Period. And if I look at the unit, I have 10% str, -70% healing!!
I go to WB, add a real mutation and it is correctly displayed (in the mutated promo or in the unit characteristic).
I go again to WB, remove the mutation and the second illutration give the result. 40 % str (instead of 60) and always -70% healing....

BTW, I have a display problem as you can see. The unit are properly displayed during a fight, but otherwise only the generic image is shown (but it already happened with the previous version in one of my computers).

 

[Jeska]

-the game periodically crashes
-some units loses control and runs like crazy(adept, cultist,lunatic)

 

[arcticnightwolf]

some promotions (( like Crazed )) grants "enraged" effect, which causes unit to be controlled by aggressive AI and removes control from owner (( in this case, player ))
look at Lunatic in civilopedia

about that adept and cultist, i'm not sure what happened, but it's possible, that these unit's have unready / explored dungeon / AC turned 100%

 

[Ghostslayer]

as for mutation, after reading many comments, I propose my analysis :
you said Valk, that mutation is 50/50 good/bad.

If I understood the comments (never having mutated a unit in 1.3)
the good and bad effects are affected to the mutated unit with a 50/50 ratio.
meaning, each mutation gets almost half good effects and almost half bad effects. Meaning that in most cases the bad effects balance the good ones, per mutation.
In the end, most mutation are neutral. or weakly good or weakly bad.
on a +50 -50 range, I would say most mutations are in the +10/-10 range.

People would be IMO happier with having mutations that are +50/+30 good or -30/-50 bad (with a 50% occurence of good or of bad mutations when you cast the spell). Meaning the mutations are overtly good are clearly bad. You know if the unit is to be kept or if you have to scrap it/suicide-bomb it.

said with other words : people would be happier if good mutations were balanced by bad mutations on an army basis but that each mutated unit has a clearly good or clearly bad mutation, some with a bit of the opposite, and some good being better than some other good and the reverse.

Maybe the mutation algorithm could first decide randomly a "total effect of promotion" on a +50-50 axis, weigthed more heavily in the extremities (inverse gaussian),
then apply the mutations, taking into account the total effect
-ex :
-random +30 good :
-+10%*6 = +30 good
- -6FS : -30 good
-+10%heal*2 after combat = +20 good
-+1 mvt : +10 good
total = 30-30+20+10 = 30
I don't know how you weighted the different +/- promotions. That can be a matter of balance.

I hope my analysis is not warped. and That my proposition can be of use.

The problem with controlling mutations is that it really depends on on considered characteristic of your unit that is affected.
In some case it is linear. Str for instance is more or less linear; +60% str is more or less twice better than +30% str (and -60% str twice nastier than -30% str). For healing it is not true. +60% healing is only slightly better than +30% healing. And -60% healing and -30% healing are more or less equivalent; in either case, you never heal.
Some mutations are symmetrical, some others are not. For instance, -4 first strike chances and -13 first strike chances are identical meaning no 1st strike chance. While, +4 first strike chances and +13 first strike chances are definitely not!! Similarly +2 motion is great, -2 motion kills your unit (especially if is a a melee unit).

Some negative mutations should be limited to avoid to make a unit completely useless (for instance -20% for healing, -50% str, -1 movement).
Others characteristic do not need this limitation.

I think limitations of the nasty effect is a key point. A very simple mean to do that would be:
1/ apply the present mutation system
2/ Get a random number N between 0 and 10.
3/ Use -5*N as the minimal value for str and if str or attack str or defense str is below -5*N set them to -5*N. This means that -50% is the absolute maximum for negative str and on the average it will be limited to -25%
4/ Similarly use -2*N as a limit for the negative effect on healing (-20% max, -10% avg).

Simple to implement and probably effective to make mutations useful.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Alright, it has been two days already.
Is no one going to even comment on it?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9538246&postcount=801

 

[snarko]

Only thing I can think of is that you're using forward slashes in the one example and backward slashes in the other. But I don't do art - not even in XML - so I don't know if that matter.

 

[Niveras]

-some units loses control and runs like crazy(adept, cultist,lunatic)

While I know why this happened, this actually caused a situation once where I could not end my turn, because a crazed unit still had moves left (guess it couldn't find anything useful to do, even to run around aimlessly, but wasn't told to wait for the next turn). I couldn't select it to tell it to wait myself, but luckily I was had a reasonable idea who it was and was able to remove the enraged promotion to regain control and end my turn.

The city that produced the unit was deep in my territory, with no real access to pressing targets or areas of opportunity, so I guess the AI figured there was no point in moving it. I would guess it's an uncommon occurance; usually the AI sends them out into the wild if there are no close targets visible.

 

[hitmancho]

Hey guys, I'm new, here started playing Rise from Erebus yesterday, it's really a vast improvement over Fall Further, but I have a really nasty issue. For some reason the game crashes every time when a building is finished with "program stopped working" message. It happens on every second building I finish. Sometimes it crashes with no reason at all. I have Scion Healthcare, start with a worker modules and NoLinkedBulds. Could they be causing this somehow? Also, it crashes every time Illians finish Samhain...

 

[snarko]

Niveras you can always end the turn, at any time, by pressing shift + enter. Clicking on the end turn button should also work.

 

[Valkrionn]

as for mutation, after reading many comments, I propose my analysis :
you said Valk, that mutation is 50/50 good/bad.

If I understood the comments (never having mutated a unit in 1.3)
the good and bad effects are affected to the mutated unit with a 50/50 ratio.
meaning, each mutation gets almost half good effects and almost half bad effects. Meaning that in most cases the bad effects balance the good ones, per mutation.
In the end, most mutation are neutral. or weakly good or weakly bad.
on a +50 -50 range, I would say most mutations are in the +10/-10 range.

People would be IMO happier with having mutations that are +50/+30 good or -30/-50 bad (with a 50% occurence of good or of bad mutations when you cast the spell). Meaning the mutations are overtly good are clearly bad. You know if the unit is to be kept or if you have to scrap it/suicide-bomb it.

said with other words : people would be happier if good mutations were balanced by bad mutations on an army basis but that each mutated unit has a clearly good or clearly bad mutation, some with a bit of the opposite, and some good being better than some other good and the reverse.

Maybe the mutation algorithm could first decide randomly a "total effect of promotion" on a +50-50 axis, weigthed more heavily in the extremities (inverse gaussian),
then apply the mutations, taking into account the total effect
-ex :
-random +30 good :
-+10%*6 = +30 good
- -6FS : -30 good
-+10%heal*2 after combat = +20 good
-+1 mvt : +10 good
total = 30-30+20+10 = 30
I don't know how you weighted the different +/- promotions. That can be a matter of balance.

I hope my analysis is not warped. and That my proposition can be of use.

Possible, but I probably won't do it that way. I simply intend to modify the weighting algorithm and change the weights of the effects to favor good results.

Thanks for your answer.


It did happen...

I didn't deny that it did, just said that it shouldn't.

Mutations were supposed to be good on the average (otherwise it would not make sense to have a level 2 spell with it). Many nasty muts could be removed by a priest or the pool. The only unremovable nasty one were weak, enervated, sensibility to fire or something else, and crazed (which is not so nasty) IIRC. None made your unit completely useless. And sometimes it was even good to have a weak unit with for instance 2 extra movement.
50/50 is not balanced. A unit with +70% str, -70% healing is not balanced, it is negative (except with a stockpile of healing salves or Sirona or for a suicide mission). And the opposite is even worse.

Again, good effects will be favored over bad. I'll likely also add a check to see if you already have the mutation.

Curious about the second part of the system.

Chance for a single special promotion.

OK for Dragon bones. I am absolutely certain to never have seen an item in a lair (but I was maybe unlucky).
And for the Pass also. Easy to verify. Just start a new game with "all unique" checked and you do not have Pristin Pass.

It may be that those items relied on python to be granted, while the new system is in xml. Like I said, I'll be going over the system.

I am aware of how to verify it. One thing I'm interested in is whether it's FlavorMod that is not placing it correctly, or the DLL. Fairly sure it would be the flavorstart option.

You did not answered for the "hidden mutation" bug. There is a graphical illustration at the end of the post.
In the first one, the scout has combat3 and subdue. Period. And if I look at the unit, I have 10% str, -70% healing!!
I go to WB, add a real mutation and it is correctly displayed (in the mutated promo or in the unit characteristic).
I go again to WB, remove the mutation and the second illutration give the result. 40 % str (instead of 60) and always -70% healing....

Hmmm.... Will have to see how he got that. And I believe I did answer it, said it shouldn't happen.

One thing that would help: Are you using any modules?

BTW, I have a display problem as you can see. The unit are properly displayed during a fight, but otherwise only the generic image is shown (but it already happened with the previous version in one of my computers).

Go into the player options, and turn off Frozen Animations. Doesn't play well with much of FfH's art.

-the game periodically crashes
-some units loses control and runs like crazy(adept, cultist,lunatic)

What modules are you using for it to crash?

And having units become controlled by the AI is a game mechanic; Check the Crazed promo.

The problem with controlling mutations is that it really depends on on considered characteristic of your unit that is affected.
In some case it is linear. Str for instance is more or less linear; +60% str is more or less twice better than +30% str (and -60% str twice nastier than -30% str). For healing it is not true. +60% healing is only slightly better than +30% healing. And -60% healing and -30% healing are more or less equivalent; in either case, you never heal.
Some mutations are symmetrical, some others are not. For instance, -4 first strike chances and -13 first strike chances are identical meaning no 1st strike chance. While, +4 first strike chances and +13 first strike chances are definitely not!! Similarly +2 motion is great, -2 motion kills your unit (especially if is a a melee unit).

Some negative mutations should be limited to avoid to make a unit completely useless (for instance -20% for healing, -50% str, -1 movement).
Others characteristic do not need this limitation.

I think limitations of the nasty effect is a key point. A very simple mean to do that would be:
1/ apply the present mutation system
2/ Get a random number N between 0 and 10.
3/ Use -5*N as the minimal value for str and if str or attack str or defense str is below -5*N set them to -5*N. This means that -50% is the absolute maximum for negative str and on the average it will be limited to -25%
4/ Similarly use -2*N as a limit for the negative effect on healing (-20% max, -10% avg).

Simple to implement and probably effective to make mutations useful.

Won't be done that way, as doing it in the dll in that way would pretty much require hardcoding.

However, limiting promotions to only one application of effect (or a listed amount for each mutation promo, in xml) would provide us with a cap anyway. Each promo can only be applied a certain amount of times when it is chosen, so if it's only allowed to be chosen once, you aren't getting past that cap.

Alright, it has been two days already.
Is no one going to even comment on it?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9538246&postcount=801

If I had an idea, I would have answered. However, no other module creator has run into anything of that sort, including myself (and yes, I do edit art, as opposed to simply adding it; My side-project will show some of that).

While I know why this happened, this actually caused a situation once where I could not end my turn, because a crazed unit still had moves left (guess it couldn't find anything useful to do, even to run around aimlessly, but wasn't told to wait for the next turn). I couldn't select it to tell it to wait myself, but luckily I was had a reasonable idea who it was and was able to remove the enraged promotion to regain control and end my turn.

The city that produced the unit was deep in my territory, with no real access to pressing targets or areas of opportunity, so I guess the AI figured there was no point in moving it. I would guess it's an uncommon occurance; usually the AI sends them out into the wild if there are no close targets visible.

Next time hit shift-enter.

Hey guys, I'm new, here started playing Rise from Erebus yesterday, it's really a vast improvement over Fall Further, but I have a really nasty issue. For some reason the game crashes every time when a building is finished with "program stopped working" message. It happens on every second building I finish. Sometimes it crashes with no reason at all. I have Scion Healthcare, start with a worker modules and NoLinkedBulds. Could they be causing this somehow? Also, it crashes every time Illians finish Samhain...

Start with a Worker causes crashes when the Barbs get workers. Disable it.

 

[Sjru]

Huh? My catapult has just taken 70% damage from losing Unwholesome addiction. I didn't know that a piece of wood could be addicted to something!

 

[lemonjelly]

Huh? My catapult has just taken 70% damage from losing Unwholesome addiction. I didn't know that a piece of wood could be addicted to something!

Ah, but you forget, in the Haunted Lands, things can be alive that shouldn't be. Your plain old wooden catapult has became living again, I'd be careful.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

If I had an idea, I would have answered. However, no other module creator has run into anything of that sort, including myself (and yes, I do edit art, as opposed to simply adding it; My side-project will show some of that).

Than I guess this is it.
Game over...

I guess some things are just not meant to be.
Thank you for all your help before. It was appreciated.

The only thing left to do now is run day after day of testing until I find some workaround or finally crack and give up on it all in the end.
And the later is not happening, ever.

 

[odalrick]

Huh? My catapult has just taken 70% damage from losing Unwholesome addiction. I didn't know that a piece of wood could be addicted to something!

They can be granted the gift by a Redactor as well.

edit: Intentional. This is not a bug report.

 

[Sarisin]

Some random questions to finish...
* In the lairs I never found any *item* (ring of striking, rod of winds, etc...). Have they been removed in 1.3?

This was brought up previously. snarko confirmed that those special items (Oh, how I miss my Jade Torch!) were somehow taken out of the lairs and unavailable. He said it would be fixed in the next patch.

I also mentioned that I prefer the old system of displaying mutations on a unit, but this does seem cleaner. Some of the stuff like -10 First Strikes are being removed, thankfully.

 

[azzedar]

hm, after that post i'd like to give valk the 'respond-quickly-and-detailed-in-a-horribly-long-post-to-all-questions-even-those-asked-for-the-third-time-with-neverending-patience'-award. i'd love to see some commercial publishers react that good.

 

[Valkrionn]

Heh, thanks.

 

[Meldon]

I've gotten equipment from lairs (Shield of Faith, and items that can be bought from outfitters etc.). Unless you're talking about equipment that can be taken by other units, which I have not gotten in this version.