Romney/Biden and Other Electoral Weirdness

[kochman]

It's a moot point because nobody is living in a true democracy by that definition.

I didn't define either term!

 

[Antilogic]

No, you used the phrase "strict sense of the term" and said we weren't a democracy.

 

[kochman]

What is the gripe here?
We aren't... so when people talk about true democracy items and ask appalled why we aren't doing it, I just remind them. Some people think we are a "democracy" in that sense, because we always talk about democracy in our sense.

 

[Antilogic]

My "gripe" is that the reason why the electoral college is used in these tie-breakers is not because we are or are not a true democracy, but rather the pretense that we are a league of semi-independent states and the states are choosing the president, not the people.

 

[say1988]

I didn't give a definition, I straightened out this concept of us being a true democracy.

You are defining "democracy" solely as "direct democracy" and ignoring that it also includes "representative democracy"

The US is a representative democracy, which is still a democracy. In addition, the term "democracy" is most commonly used in reference to representative democracy, not direct democracy.

 

[kochman]

And, it's a pointless gripe. The very basic fact that we have that system is part of what makes us a representative republic.

 

[kochman]

You are defining "democracy" solely as "direct democracy" and ignoring that it also includes "representative democracy"

The US is a representative democracy, which is still a democracy. In addition, the term "democracy" is most commonly used in reference to representative democracy, not direct democracy.

No, we are a representative republic... JEEZ.

Constitution-based federal republic

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

We are a republic with democratically elected representatives... this isn't rocket science, it's Civics 101...

 

[say1988]

No, we are a representative republic... JEEZ.

A representative democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive.

Just like the UK is a representative democracy and a monarchy the US is a representative democracy and a republic.

 

[Leoreth]

We are a representative republic that allows all adult citizens to vote...
We are not a democracy, in the strict sense of the term.

I rather like it that way.

As said above already, the US is both a representative democracy and a republic. Not that being a republic has anything to do with the question at hand.

To rephrase my question without running into your slightly odd definitions, why is it preferable to set up a system that deliberately weights the votes of some of its citizens differently than those of others? Your answer was essentially "because that's how we're doing it and I think it's great", but that isn't really satisfactory. I agree that there are reasons for representative systems (although I question the sense of a representative institution whose only point is to elect one different representative, but as I said, that's a different debate), but that doesn't mean that "more representative" always means better. I can see no advantage in doing it that way. I mean, I accept the answer "it's a historical relic from more confederational times", but I cannot grasp how people think it actually makes sense to do it like that.

 

[kochman]

As said above already, the US is both a representative democracy and a republic. Not that being a republic has anything to do with the question at hand.

To rephrase my question without running into your slightly odd definitions, why is it preferable to set up a system that deliberately weights the votes of some of its citizens differently than those of others? Your answer was essentially "because that's how we're doing it and I think it's great", but that isn't really satisfactory. I agree that there are reasons for representative systems (although I question the sense of a representative institution whose only point is to elect one different representative, but as I said, that's a different debate), but that doesn't mean that "more representative" always means better. I can see no advantage in doing it that way. I mean, I accept the answer "it's a historical relic from more confederational times", but I cannot grasp how people think it actually makes sense to do it like that.

Well, until it proves to be a big problem, it will be that way, because many of us are content with it.
A case like a tie could be an issue that changes that, if it ended up pissing people off... the Constitution has a built in structure that allows change.

 

[Takhisis]

Democracies don't have to be republics, and republics don't have to be democracies…

 

[kochman]

A representative democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive.

Just like the UK is a representative democracy and a monarchy the US is a representative democracy and a republic.

You're right, the CIA is wrong.

 

[say1988]

You're right, the CIA is wrong.

I'm right, the CIA is right. You're wrong.

Nothing in the World Factbook contradicts that the US is a representative democracy and a republic.

 

[kochman]

I'm right, the CIA is right. You're wrong.

Nothing in the World Factbook contradicts that the US is a representative democracy and a republic.

Officially, republic... democratic tradition. Not a form of government, but a tradition.
You're wrong.

 

[say1988]

Officially, republic... democratic tradition. Not a form of government, but a tradition.
You're wrong.

Point me to where it says "the United States is not a democracy"

The US does not have an "official" form of government it's government system simply meets the criteria of certain terms.

The simple fact is, the US is a representative democracy and always has been. The US government is composed of individuals elected by the people to represent them, the basic definition of a representative democracy.

It is also a constitutional federal republic and a multitude of other things depending on what you are looking at and how deeply you go. Governmen are complex things and there isn't one word or line that accurately describes them.

 

[kochman]

Point me to where it says "the United States is not a democracy"

The US does not have an "official" form of government it's government system simply meets the criteria of certain terms.

The simple fact is, the US is a representative democracy and always has been. The US government is composed of individuals elected by the people to represent them, the basic definition of a representative democracy.

It is also a constitutional federal republic and a multitude of other things depending on what you are looking at and how deeply you go. Governmen are complex things and there isn't one word or line that accurately describes them.

Dude, I already did, you don't want to listen.
One more time...
Form of government - Constitution-based federal republic; strong tradition of democracy...

OK, a tradition is not a form of government, but how it is executed (generally).

I'm done with this... believe whatever you like.

 

[say1988]

Dude, I already did, you don't want to listen.
One more time...
Form of government - Constitution-based federal republic; strong tradition of democracy...

OK, a tradition is not a form of government, but how it is executed (generally).

I'm done with this... believe whatever you like.

A nominally democratic government may or may not have a "tradition of democracy".

By definition the US is a representative democracy. Period.

 

[kochman]

Go tell the CIA that, you're apparently better at classifying governments than they are...

 

[mitsho]

The discussion is really pointless since it wholly depends on how you define the two terms. And since classifications are overrated, it really does not matter wether we classify the US as a democracy or a republic or both or neither. What does matter wether this political system fulfills our criteria we deem a republic or democracy should have, not the term itself. Because in the end, you can't do a black (dictatorship) and white (democracy) distinction. Or you can, but it doesn't help you really...

 

[Verarde]

Fascinating stuff, Antilogic. You would certainly have a massive amount of protests and general anger whatever way the election turned out.