So this is a different topic. If I was unaware of your posting history, I'd think you were only pretending to not see the discussion was about illegitimacy of Harris as potus if Biden wins.
Biden announces he is running for re-election 2024
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you are the one who can't read. All I have been arguing is that age argument in the case of Biden is irrelevant as there has been many old leaders who are capable.
Angst
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coming in from the sidelines here.
i'm actually miffy about the age, but only because i feel there's lack of younger representation in politics when it comes to positions of proper power. it's more of a general problem.
i don't doubt in any way whatsoever that he's perfectly sound of mind. he's just got a stutter, which means he has a hard time getting votes.
i'm actually miffy about the age, but only because i feel there's lack of younger representation in politics when it comes to positions of proper power. it's more of a general problem.
i don't doubt in any way whatsoever that he's perfectly sound of mind. he's just got a stutter, which means he has a hard time getting votes.
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I don't think so. Considering he won twice last time.
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Honestly I think Biden is useful for getting rid of Trumpism that is plaguing in US. After 2024 defeat Trump will be gone- even from Republican circles. In the next election after 2024 you lot can decide for younger leader after Biden. For now in order to get rid of Trumpism and Trump Biden is best bet.
Angst
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i'd be careful to attribute his victory to his success over trump's failure. despite trump's rabid base and the state of things in the us, there were a lot of people that thought trump to be something different than he was.
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One thing Biden is good at is killing Trumpism. Use him to finally put nail in the dying cancer that is Trumpism.
Gori the Grey
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Trumpism can't be killed, now that he's unleashed it. It will long outlast Trump himself. It will become unfocused when he dies, and no successor will be able to focus it, though many will try. So maybe we'll call that "killed." But it linger as a kind of nostalgia--for back when things were "Great"--and a way of naming that nostalgia: "The Trump Era." He, and what he stood for, will be venerated long after his death--like Reagan, like Elvis.
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It will become so small that not enough Republicans will bother entertain the thought. Maybe it will evolve into something else... but losing 2024 presintal election will finally be a waking call to Republicans that Trump is a sinking ship.
Gori the Grey
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It'll be a drag on the Republican party. There will be a sizable group of its voters saying, in effect, "Give us another Trump." And the GOP will not be able to comply. So they'll just be disappointed.
Republicans already know Trump is a sinking ship. But Trumpists (and they're a solid third of the party) will never abandon him, will never regard him as sinking even after he has sunk. And Republicans will forever, futilely, chase after those Trumpists (because they need everyone they can get).
Moreover, no Republicanism will be able to emerge. No on will know that Republicanism is supposed to be any more.
Republicans already know Trump is a sinking ship. But Trumpists (and they're a solid third of the party) will never abandon him, will never regard him as sinking even after he has sunk. And Republicans will forever, futilely, chase after those Trumpists (because they need everyone they can get).
Moreover, no Republicanism will be able to emerge. No on will know that Republicanism is supposed to be any more.
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Maybe but hopefully anti-Trumpism will finally be a mainstream in Republican party by that point... or maybe it won't and give a deep boost to Democrats. Who knows?
Gori the Grey
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There will be some in the Republican party who will float some "anti-Trump" new version of the Republican party. But it won't get traction because, again, a solid third of Republicans aren't Republicans, they're Trumpists. They're not going to get on board for an anti-Trump Republican party.
The anti-Trump wing will be as viable as any other within the post-Trump republican party--as viable as the nuTrump wing--but "as viable" here means "not viable."
The anti-Trump wing will be as viable as any other within the post-Trump republican party--as viable as the nuTrump wing--but "as viable" here means "not viable."
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I guess that means win for Democrats in foreseeable future.
Gori the Grey
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Well, one would like to think that, but they'll find some way to self-destruct.
RobAnybody
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While I agree with your sentiment, it was revealed with Palin. It was certainly focused with Trump. I doubt anyone else will be able to focus it like he did (does? I hope: did).
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Democrats will always be lesser evil than Trump.
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
They both suck, but since it is a 2 party system, you will always be subject to their suckery.
And you'll never have something like this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Canadian_federal_election
Ideally, both parties implode and fall into a electoral netherland
I don't agree with Gori's argument that "Trumpism is forever, even without Trump". Ideologies can last forever, albeit with varying levels of popularity.
Trumpism, however, is about a cult of personality, and those tend to die out after their founder exits the public view. Sometimes, if it's a dictatorship, their successor can remain in power. North Korea being a good example of a sustained cult of personality. But Stalinism did not continue after Stalin, even though he passed away peacefully and the Soviet Union continued to exist; quite soon it was in a period of de-Stalinization.
The "unfocused" aspect is a lot of what will end it. North Korea works because it's a family dictatorship and they've always been laser-focused on the Kim cult. Without Trump, his particular brand of politics will fade. He was able to tap into a particular part of the national psyche in a way that was enabled because of his personality. He has a certain charisma on being able to harp on why a large portion of the populace felt aggrieved in a way that can't easily be emulated. People connected emotionally, felt this was the man who could change things. It wasn't Ted Cruz's conservative bona fides that won the day, it wasn't Marco Rubio or John Kasich's policy arguments. It wasn't really Trump's often vague policy proposals. It was his ability to channel their motions and give them hope that things might really change, that he really could Make America Great Again.
Of course a large portion of the populace found him repulsive, and another large segment wasn't particularly enamored with him but figured he wouldn't be such a loose cannon once he was in office and would advance their political priorities. Many of those who found him repulsive also didn't expect he'd remain quite so much of a loose cannon in the then-unlikely event that he entered office.
Biden was the one who was able to finally unite enough of the populace against him to remove him from office, and while the final nail hasn't been delivered to Trump's political coffin yet, I see no reason not to continue to bet on the winning horse.
Would Sanders, Warren, or Buttigieg have defeated Trump had they won the primaries? We'll never know for sure. Would someone else defeat him in 2024? Maybe, maybe not. But Biden has a proven track record, and I would argue has done a pretty good job as President, too, even with having been dealt a pretty tough hand, notably the continuing effects of the pandemic, the challenge of inflation, and the war in Ukraine.
One could argue that he's even turned those tough cards into an advantage as it's given him a stage on which to live up to the moment or not, and so far I think it's hard to argue he hasn't succeeded. The U.S. emerged from the pandemic relatively quickly, inflation has been more moderate than in many countries and has been decreasing while the economy has continued to grow, and Biden has played a central role in rallying democracies and NATO behind Ukraine. The latter one in particular is one where it's very difficult to imagine the U.S. succeeding if Trump were still president. Add to that being able to pass both the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill (a policy Trump campaigned on but never delivered on, nor really attempted to deliver on) and the Inflation Reduction Act, and he has some significant legislative wins as well.
Is he old? Well, yeah. He's said so himself, at least when he was in Ireland a couple months ago. Would it be preferable if he were 10 years younger? Sure. But I am not so pessimistic as Kyriakos about the potential for octogenarians to remain healthy. Obviously not all are. But Queen Elizabeth II was widely said to be perfectly mentally sharp for her entire reign, and she was much older than Biden is now or will be in 2028. As far as I know, Pope Francis is another example of a leader who's considerably older than Biden but mentally sharp. I could go on, but the point is that it's a case-by-case situation.
And worst case, I expect Biden to continue to have a reasonable VP candidate, likely Harris. But not a Sarah Palin. Admittedly that was a concern in 2008, McCain was a good candidate, but the drop-off was so steep if he had run into a health issue. 90% chance things are fine and McCain serves 4-8 years, 10% chance of disaster. Harris has largely stayed out of the public spotlight as VP and I don't know that she'd be as good as Biden as Prez, notably on foreign policy where Biden has been able to flex his decades of experience, but with Biden we're talking 80% chance that things are fine and 20% chance that things are slightly worse. I can live with those odds. And if Trump does win the primaries again, I'd vote for a yellow dog before I voted for Trump.
Trumpism, however, is about a cult of personality, and those tend to die out after their founder exits the public view. Sometimes, if it's a dictatorship, their successor can remain in power. North Korea being a good example of a sustained cult of personality. But Stalinism did not continue after Stalin, even though he passed away peacefully and the Soviet Union continued to exist; quite soon it was in a period of de-Stalinization.
The "unfocused" aspect is a lot of what will end it. North Korea works because it's a family dictatorship and they've always been laser-focused on the Kim cult. Without Trump, his particular brand of politics will fade. He was able to tap into a particular part of the national psyche in a way that was enabled because of his personality. He has a certain charisma on being able to harp on why a large portion of the populace felt aggrieved in a way that can't easily be emulated. People connected emotionally, felt this was the man who could change things. It wasn't Ted Cruz's conservative bona fides that won the day, it wasn't Marco Rubio or John Kasich's policy arguments. It wasn't really Trump's often vague policy proposals. It was his ability to channel their motions and give them hope that things might really change, that he really could Make America Great Again.
Of course a large portion of the populace found him repulsive, and another large segment wasn't particularly enamored with him but figured he wouldn't be such a loose cannon once he was in office and would advance their political priorities. Many of those who found him repulsive also didn't expect he'd remain quite so much of a loose cannon in the then-unlikely event that he entered office.
Biden was the one who was able to finally unite enough of the populace against him to remove him from office, and while the final nail hasn't been delivered to Trump's political coffin yet, I see no reason not to continue to bet on the winning horse.
Would Sanders, Warren, or Buttigieg have defeated Trump had they won the primaries? We'll never know for sure. Would someone else defeat him in 2024? Maybe, maybe not. But Biden has a proven track record, and I would argue has done a pretty good job as President, too, even with having been dealt a pretty tough hand, notably the continuing effects of the pandemic, the challenge of inflation, and the war in Ukraine.
One could argue that he's even turned those tough cards into an advantage as it's given him a stage on which to live up to the moment or not, and so far I think it's hard to argue he hasn't succeeded. The U.S. emerged from the pandemic relatively quickly, inflation has been more moderate than in many countries and has been decreasing while the economy has continued to grow, and Biden has played a central role in rallying democracies and NATO behind Ukraine. The latter one in particular is one where it's very difficult to imagine the U.S. succeeding if Trump were still president. Add to that being able to pass both the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill (a policy Trump campaigned on but never delivered on, nor really attempted to deliver on) and the Inflation Reduction Act, and he has some significant legislative wins as well.
Is he old? Well, yeah. He's said so himself, at least when he was in Ireland a couple months ago. Would it be preferable if he were 10 years younger? Sure. But I am not so pessimistic as Kyriakos about the potential for octogenarians to remain healthy. Obviously not all are. But Queen Elizabeth II was widely said to be perfectly mentally sharp for her entire reign, and she was much older than Biden is now or will be in 2028. As far as I know, Pope Francis is another example of a leader who's considerably older than Biden but mentally sharp. I could go on, but the point is that it's a case-by-case situation.
And worst case, I expect Biden to continue to have a reasonable VP candidate, likely Harris. But not a Sarah Palin. Admittedly that was a concern in 2008, McCain was a good candidate, but the drop-off was so steep if he had run into a health issue. 90% chance things are fine and McCain serves 4-8 years, 10% chance of disaster. Harris has largely stayed out of the public spotlight as VP and I don't know that she'd be as good as Biden as Prez, notably on foreign policy where Biden has been able to flex his decades of experience, but with Biden we're talking 80% chance that things are fine and 20% chance that things are slightly worse. I can live with those odds. And if Trump does win the primaries again, I'd vote for a yellow dog before I voted for Trump.
Gori the Grey
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I don't think we're in that much of a disagreement (see the Elvis part of my quote) All I mean is that 1) there will be a significant number of potential Republican voters (his cultists) who will be positively disaffected with any candidate the party puts forth ("He's no Trump") and 2) various candidates will always be chasing after that group by trying to project something of what they think made Trump popular, and those candidates will a) fail to do so and b) prevent the party from forming any new ideological center to try to provide a new form of unity for the party. The Republican party will be disunified for at least twenty years going forward, because of the memory of Trump.
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