Russia and the West: a Debate

Rather poor beginning for a debate. Every one of the viewpoints you list has the West at fault for the current relationship. Where is the Russian responsibility in the current breakdown?
This thread is about trying to understand the Russian viewpoint. Winner's opinions are very pro-EU; this is an attempt to start dialogue. Russia's responsibility can be found all over the Ukraine thread, among others.

I'm rather neutral and have posted from what I understand of the Russian side, sort of as a "devil's advocate", sort of because I don't think their grievances, some of which could be called legitimate, are understood at all in most Western media.
 
3) Russia is an "exceptional state" in the sense that its security needs are quantitatively and qualitatively different from anybody else's, based on its unique geostrategic and cultural position. For this reason, the West should give Russia a special preferential treatment, which includes (among other things) recognition of its "sphere of influence" which should be off limits to Western influence. This line of reasoning incorporates the rejection of Western "universalism" in all its forms; in simpler terms, Russia does not believe that when institutions like the EU say that they just want to expand economic co-operation and promote human rights, it is not just a cover for power-political expansionism. This fundamental misunderstanding (party due to Russia's projecting of its own modus operandi onto the Western way of approaching international relations) then leads to very deep suspiciousness in Russia concerning the Western motives.

It is hokum to assert that respecting Russia's wishes is "preferential treatment". Russia is the only major power in history, as far as I can tell, which has voluntarily dissolved its own Empire in return for certain guarantees: mainly that NATO would not expand to its former imperial domains. The red empire that extended from east Germany to the far east, suffocating under its yoke numerous European nations and capitals, was willingly and unilaterally dissolved by Russia: first by Gorbachev in Eastern Europe and then by Yeltsin in the USSR (after Gorbachev had tried to reform the USSR into a very loose confederacy). Many people have foolishly taken credit in the west for the fall of the USSR, trying to depict Russia as a "defeated power" and the collapse of the Red Empire as a western accomplishment, while in reality the main powers behind its dissolution were Yuri Andropov, Gorbachev and Yeltsin, not Reagan or Lech Walesa. Almost at any point, until the very final days, these reforms could have been reversed by Moscow and the tanks could have crushed the subject peoples, but time and time again it was Russia that refused to do so.

Basically, Russia gave away its immense empire: the empire it largely won in a heroic and defensive war.

Yet, in return for this unprecedented and benign action Russia has received only the most spiteful hatred and contempt. When it comes to forming their policy or views regarding Russia, Westerners mainly listen to Eastern Europeans, especially the Baltics, which are often viscerally russophobic and probably would have ethnically cleansed their local Russian populations if it weren't for the threat of foreign intervention. The politics in the Baltic countries are deeply poisoned by ethnic hatreds, yet their views on Russia are often taken as somehow deeply insightful.

And then there is this western obsession with Russian politics. We're always told that Putin crushed Russian democracy and that Russia was this happy liberal paradise of democracy under the rule of Yeltsin. Nevermind that he fired at the parliament building with tanks. Nevermind that numerous journalists disappeared under his reign as well. Nevermind that Yeltsin probably stole the 1996 elections. Nope its all Putin's fault.

Westerners seem to have this silly delusion that authoritarian rulers like Putin and Saddam are just isolated evils. Get rid of the bad guy and democracy and liberty will flourish! Of course they refuse to accept that such characters stem from a rotten political culture at large. Russia went from Czarist absolutism straight to Stalinism and only now has its first taste of so called liberal democracy. There is no tradition of civil society or democracy in Russia: so leaders like Putin are more or less inevitable and so we should try to work with him rather than mock him at every turn.
 
While far from perfect, the Russian political system has some positive attributes Western polities lack. Small-scale patronage on personal levels is still preferable over the pervasive lobbying culture that has corrupted the USA.
 
While far from perfect, the Russian political system has some positive attributes Western polities lack. Small-scale patronage on personal levels is still preferable over the pervasive lobbying culture that has corrupted the USA.

Is it as pervasive in other Western countries?
 
Is it as pervasive in other Western countries?

Maybe, though European countries may suffer indirectly through US influence.

For clarification, some lobbying is useful as a mean political petitioning. I don't want to see it eliminated entirely.
 
Westerners seem to have this silly delusion that authoritarian rulers like Putin and Saddam are just isolated evils. Get rid of the bad guy and democracy and liberty will flourish! Of course they refuse to accept that such characters stem from a rotten political culture at large. Russia went from Czarist absolutism straight to Stalinism[.]
That's a dubious claim, historically speaking. You're looking at a solid thirty or more years between the 1905 Revolution and the Great Purge, and while the intervening years weren't particularly democratic, it's hard to see how you can skip past them so casually. This is a period almost half the lifespan of the Soviet Union itself, and longer than the period between the fall of the Soviet Union and the present, but you're just side-stepping past it, announcing that Russia went "straight" from 1904 to 1939, with no hint that the intervening decades even occurred.

I understand the point you're making, that liberal democracy is about more than the simple absence of dictators. But it's not really any more sophisticated to reduce it to pure political culture, let alone political culture painted in such broad terms. Both views are basically ahistorical, and while the latter at least acknowledges the possibility of history in that it locates the Hand of Fate in culture rather than individuals, it doesn't seem to confront history as a concrete or ongoing process. Without some discussion of the shape and the changing shape of Russian society, economy and institutions, all it's ultimately doing is meeting the liberal interventionists appeal to a universal human nature with an appeal to a peculiarly Russian nature. Instead of "because: FREEDOM", it's "because: ЯЦSSIAИS".
 
Westerners seem to have this silly delusion that authoritarian rulers like Putin and Saddam are just isolated evils. Get rid of the bad guy and democracy and liberty will flourish!
Delusion and delusion... Democracy and liberalims certainly won't flourish if they're not even on the agenda.
 
Doing Business with Putin’s Russia: Why it’s Dangerous to Trade with People who don’t Believe in Trade

Author: Ed Dolan · May 19th, 2014 · ›


I spent the 1990s teaching economics at a business school in Moscow. Our students were graduates of FizTech, Mekh-Mat, MIFI—the whole alphabet soup of science and technology schools that had fed the Soviet military-industrial establishment. These young men and women had degrees in things like “laser weapons platform design” that weren’t in much demand in Boris Yeltsin’s new Russia. Now they wanted to become financial analysts, accountants, and business IT specialists.

The students were incredibly bright and had great quantitative skills, but there were ideas in our American-style MBA curriculum that many of them found hard to grasp. Not my subject, economics. None of them had ever had an econ course before, but they ate up equations and models like breakfast cereal. Instead, the hardest thing for some of them to grasp was the idea that business could be something other than a zero-sum game.

The zero-sum mentality

Our Russian students had been brought up in a system where the central question, at least in dealing with strangers, was the quintessentially Russian “кто-кого?” Who is going to get the best of whom? The question reflects a belief that every human interaction with outsiders necessarily has a winner and a loser. The idea that arms-length business dealings with people to whom you owe no prior duty of loyalty could have mutual benefits was new. Some students caught on, some did not.

Attempts at trade in which one party has a кто-кого mentality and the other is looking for mutual gains are fraught with risk. For the party with the zero-sum mindset, the risk is that of missing out on genuine opportunities for mutual gain. For the party looking for mutual gain, the risk is that the benefits promised in return may not materialize, for one of three reasons:

Fraud. You hand over your money for a bottle of Armenian brandy, but when you get home and open it, you find it is cheap vodka colored with tea.
Non-fulfillment. You deliver a manuscript to a publisher in return for promised royalties; the book is published and appears in every bookstore, but the royalties are never paid. Go to court? You’re joking, of course.
Hold-up. You enter into a contract that involves an investment in sunk costs on your part. After you have made the investment, your contract partner demands a renegotiation of terms, knowing that your commitment of sunk costs has weakened your bargaining position. (For example, you lease an office, and after you have redecorated it and advertised the address, the landlord demands an increase in the rent.)

When these risks are present, the only trades into which you, as an individual, can safely enter are ones that involve the simultaneous exchange of cash for goods or services whose quality you can verify on the spot. If you look at trade from a national rather than an individual perspective, the risks are even greater.

Traders vs. Guardians

Just who are the people with whom it is dangerous to trade? Certainly, I do not mean to put all Russians in that category, any more than I would say all Americans are reliable trading partners. Instead, I would point to a distinction that Jane Jacobs makes, in her book Systems of Survival, between two mindsets or “ethical syndromes” that she calls the guardian mentality and the commercial mentality.

The guardians, who get their name from Plato’s ideal rulers, include government leaders, soldiers, and police, although their way of thinking also extends to criminal gangs, hunter-gatherers, and some other groups. Of the fifteen virtues Jacobs lists as characteristic for guardians, five are especially relevant for our discussion: First, guardians value and receive respect for exerting prowess. Second, they consider it important to take vengeance, in some cases even when doing so is costly to them. Third, they admire skill in deceit as a means of achieving an end. Fourth, they treasure honor. Fifth, although they are willing to trade when necessary, they do not view trade as an especially virtuous activity. They are suspicious of trade, in part, because it easily leads to corruption, treachery, or other conflicts between group and personal interests.

Commercial types, or traders, have a different set of virtues. They value efficiency, novelty, industriousness, and thrift. They seek voluntary agreements as the preferred means of attaining an end. Accordingly, they place a high value on respect for contracts and on honesty. They are not completely unwilling to use force, but they tend to shun it as regrettable necessity and to use it only as a last resort.

Honor is a particularly tricky concept. As Jacobs uses the term, it appears to mean the respect and esteem earned by admirably fulfilling one’s moral obligations. The puzzle is why she lists it as a guardian virtue but not a commercial one. Yes, clearly, a guardian can earn respect and esteem by exhibiting courage, loyalty, prowess on the battlefield, and so on, but can’t a trader equally earn respect and esteem by building a successful enterprise through thrift and innovation, by keeping promises, and paying debts?

I think the key to the puzzle is that honor is elevated to a distinct, separate virtue among guardians because that moral system creates a more frequent tensions between moral obligation and self-interest. It is not in your immediate self-interest to be the brave soldier who rallies retreating comrades and leads them back for one last, long-shot attack, but it is honorable to do so. Also, guardian societies are hierarchical, so unless you stand at the very top, honorable conduct requires loyalty and obedience even when they go against your immediate self-interest.

In contrast, a society of traders operates under the principle of Adam Smith’s invisible hand or what Friedrich Hayek called spontaneous order. In such a society, the pursuit of self-interest by each member is supposed to be consistent with the interests of the community as a whole, provided everyone plays by the rules of the game, defined as respect for property rights and fulfillment of contracts. In such a society, you can earn the esteem of others through the pursuit of self-interest. In that sense, it is a virtue for traders to behave honorably, but honor is not a distinct, separate virtue.

Given their different value systems, guardians and traders approach negotiations with outsiders differently. Guardians take a wary approach, maintaining an expectation that any encounter is likely to produce a clear winner and a clear loser. Furthermore, they see any commercial agreement that is reached as an ongoing contest in which deceit is a legitimate weapon, not only in negotiating the agreement but also in carrying it out.

Traders, in contrast, approach negotiations more openly in the expectation of finding an agreement that will benefit both parties. Once they reach such an agreement, their default expectation is that it will be in the interest of both parties to honor it, and even if changing circumstances defeat that expectation, they expect the losing side to perform as promised.

Without a belief that voluntary agreements will lead to mutual benefits and that promise keeping is a virtue, the prospects for successful trading seem dim. It is not going too far to say that one who holds the opposite beliefs—the conviction that one side in any business relationship is bound to lose, combined with the view that deceit is a virtue and honesty is for chumps—does not believe in trade at all.

How do Jacobs’ categories apply to Russia? Quite possibly the guardian mindset is more prevalent there than among Americans, but the sociological distribution of value systems is beside the point. What is important is that the Russian government under Vladimir Putin is, in many respects, the very embodiment of Jacobs’ guardian mentality.

Putin and many of his closest associates came up through the KGB, an organization in which prowess, deceit, vengeance and honor are paramount virtues. Sometimes they are on display cartoonishly, as in pictures of Putin bare chested astride a horse or intently aiming a crossbow at a whale. A more chilling example from recent events is Putin’s after-the-fact acknowledgment—not just open, but openly boastful—of the deceptive use of unmarked Russian troops (“little green men”) in the takeover of Crimea.

Was Bastiat right to think that if goods cross frontiers, soldiers will not?

Applying Jacobs’ framework to international relations suggests that we take a cautious view of the old notion that trade is an instrument of peace. Frederic Bastiat supposedly said that if goods don’t cross frontiers, soldiers will. Although the quote appears to be spurious, the idea is consistent with his thought and that of many libertarians and classical liberals today. In a recent essay in The Freeman, Julian Adorney elaborates on the theory. Free trade creates international good will, he says. It humanizes the people that you trade with and gives nations a material incentive to avoid war. He quotes empirical research by Patrick McDonald to the effect that lower barriers to trade reduce the probability to conflict between nations.

The belief in trade as an instrument of peace is institutionalized in the World Trade Organization. A WTO document lists promotion of peace as the first among ten benefits:

Crudely put, sales people are usually reluctant to fight their customers. In other words, if trade flows smoothly and both sides enjoy a healthy commercial relationship, political conflict is less likely. . . What’s more, smoothly-flowing trade also helps people all over the world become better off. People who are more prosperous and contented are also less likely to fight.

However, I think the notion that trade is necessarily conducive to peace requires an important qualification. It is valid, I think, only when the trade is between representatives of the commercial mindset on both sides. Things stand differently in the case of pseudo-commercial negotiations between traders on one side and guardians on the other, or between guardian types on both sides. As the recent Ukrainian conflict has brought home, trade agreements negotiated under those conditions are all too likely to exacerbate rather than to quell conflict. Consider three examples:

Ukrainian-Russian gas trade. For years, the gas trade between Ukraine and Russia has had guardian types at both ends. The two sides have repeatedly violated agreements and renegotiated them under duress. In these classic кто-кого dealings, the winners have been Putin’s Russia, which has gained powerful geopolitical leverage over its neighbor, and corrupt intermediaries on both sides. The losers have been ordinary Ukrainians who have awakened to see that their country has been sold down the river for the fool’s gold of (temporarily) cheap Russian gas.

Unfortunately, once Russia’s partner, former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, left the stage, Ukraine’s almost total dependency on Russian gas left it vulnerable to a classic hold-up. Gazprom, majority owned by the Russian state, announced a price increase. It justified the increase in part on the grounds that Russia was no longer bound to a previously agreed discount in lieu of rent for its Sevastopol naval base, which Russia had just swiped along with the rest of Crimea. On top of that, Gazprom has demanded immediate payment of arrears (inflated by some accounts) plus advance payment for future deliveries. To add insult to injury, Russia now claims ownership of some promising oil and gas properties offshore from Crimea–no compensation offered for those, needless to say.

EU-Russian gas trade. The gas trade between Russia and the EU is a variant on the same story, except that this time EU commercial interests, rather than a fellow guardian autocrat, were on the other end of the deal with Gazprom. European proponents of the deal sold it as offering access to a geographically convenient source of gas at a reasonable price. Some seem to have imagined that since the price was profitable to both sides, Russia would have an economic incentive to avoid conflict.

From the start, though, the deal had built-in asymmetries. On the Russian end, a single entity, Gazprom, controlled the shut-off valve, while multiple government and private buyers on the Western end lacked the unity of purpose they would need to credibly threaten a buyers’ boycott. Furthermore, Western Europeans, who had always looked at Russian gas primarily in commercial terms, were highly sensitive to the economic costs of any supply interruption. The Russian end, in contrast, stood ready, if push came to shove, to place guardian values (national honor, revenge for perceived affronts like the admission of the Baltic states to NATO) ahead of any economic costs.

Trade in strategic goods. Gas is not the only item of East-West trade. The West has contracted both to sell strategic goods to Russia (for example, French-built warships) and buy strategic goods from Russia (for example, rocket engines used to launch US military satellites). Although the trade looks symmetrical in commercial terms, it is asymmetrical in terms of politics and geostrategy. In the West, commercial interests, including the Lockheed-Boeing rocket consortium ULA and French shipbuilders such as DCN, are lobbying furiously to see the contracts through in order to realize hoped-for profits. Western governments are reluctant to override these commercial interests. Meanwhile, the Russian side has other priorities and is willing to selectively observe or cancel such contracts in pursuit of strategic ends, absorbing commercial losses when necessary.

In short, in each of these cases, East-West trade relations give the Western side an economic incentive to avoid conflict while simultaneously giving Russia a weapon to advance its geostrategic interests. The reason is simple: The Western parties believe in trade but the Russian side does not:

The West views trade agreements as mutually beneficial deals that provide an inherent incentive for peaceful resolution of disputes. The Russian leadership views them in zero-sum terms, to be fulfilled or unilaterally renounced according to a perceived balance of noneconomic factors.
The Western partners to these deals consider fulfillment of contracts to be the norm, even if changing circumstances make them unprofitable. The Russian side considers it normal to enter into contracts in the expectation that it can renounce or unilaterally revise them if circumstances change.
Without denying that self-interest plays a role on both sides, it is fair to say that in the West, the ethical framework behind the self-interest assumes shared values of honesty and promise keeping. On the Russian side, in a showdown, there is a significant chance that guardian values like prowess, skill in deceit, vengeance and honor will trump economic self-interest.

The bottom line

The bottom line is that trade is a reliable instrument of peace only when commercial considerations dominate on both sides. Asymmetrical trade that has a commercially motivated party on one side and a guardian party on the other risks becoming an instrument of conflict.

In practice, as Jacobs herself pointed out, all existing societies contain a mix of guardian and commercial elements. Bastiat’s belief that increased trade will reduce chances for interstate conflict may well be valid in cases where the trade in question strengthens the hand of the commercial elements within both countries. Unfortunately that has not, at least not yet, happened in Russia. Until it does, it would be wise for governments in the West to approach trade with Russia much more cautiously than they have done to date.

http://www.economonitor.com/dolanec...-trade-with-people-who-dont-believe-in-trade/
 
Honor and honesty do not always mean the same thing, but honor in the context of guardian mentality is not honesty. It would be the mutual respect that comes with equal treatment, even if that equal treatment involves deceit. Personally when it comes to labeling entities who do not play fair, using the term guardian is going way and above being nice.

But to be fair the imperialistic entities are not fully traders either. There are a lot of times the west has proven themselves more like guardians and not traders. The cold war being a good example of both playing the guardian role.
 
Question: Since the Cold War is over, why hasn't Russia been offered NATO membership? Why does NATO even exist today?
EDIT: I don't think Russia is no longer a super power, any nation capable of destroying the World several times over (through nuclear weapons) , is still a superpower in my book...
 
It is hokum to assert that respecting Russia's wishes is "preferential treatment". Russia is the only major power in history, as far as I can tell, which has voluntarily dissolved its own Empire in return for certain guarantees: mainly that NATO would not expand to its former imperial domains. The red empire that extended from east Germany to the far east, suffocating under its yoke numerous European nations and capitals, was willingly and unilaterally dissolved by Russia: first by Gorbachev in Eastern Europe and then by Yeltsin in the USSR (after Gorbachev had tried to reform the USSR into a very loose confederacy). Many people have foolishly taken credit in the west for the fall of the USSR, trying to depict Russia as a "defeated power" and the collapse of the Red Empire as a western accomplishment, while in reality the main powers behind its dissolution were Yuri Andropov, Gorbachev and Yeltsin, not Reagan or Lech Walesa. Almost at any point, until the very final days, these reforms could have been reversed by Moscow and the tanks could have crushed the subject peoples, but time and time again it was Russia that refused to do so.

Basically, Russia gave away its immense empire: the empire it largely won in a heroic and defensive war.

I can only imagine how offensive this statement must be to the peoples of the Eastern European nations the USSR subjugated. If this is the Russian mindset, then I am not encouraged.

Russia GAVE AWAY its empire? You did that because you were on the verge of economic collapse, and the subject peoples were rising up. Even then, you could still have suppressed them with brute force, I don't doubt that. That is what Russians are good at, after all. But that would have been only a temporary subjugation at the most, and the subject peoples would then bear even more enmity against Russia as a result, and Russia would quite rightly receive even more condemnation from the world. Taking the hardline approach in 1991 would only have gone badly for Russia in the long run.

Yet, in return for this unprecedented and benign action Russia has received only the most spiteful hatred and contempt. When it comes to forming their policy or views regarding Russia, Westerners mainly listen to Eastern Europeans, especially the Baltics, which are often viscerally russophobic and probably would have ethnically cleansed their local Russian populations if it weren't for the threat of foreign intervention. The politics in the Baltic countries are deeply poisoned by ethnic hatreds, yet their views on Russia are often taken as somehow deeply insightful.

Hmm, the collapse of the British Empire must have been an unprecedented and benign action on Britain's part too.

Ah, the Russian populations of the Baltic states, you mean the ones that were installed there during the period of Russification. And of course Russian treatment of the Baltics, not to mention other East European peoples, was always the best.
 
Rather poor beginning for a debate. Every one of the viewpoints you list has the West at fault for the current relationship. Where is the Russian responsibility in the current breakdown?

The three points I listed in the OP were simply common points which often come up in threads which concern Russia. They were meant to summarize the pro-Russian position.

There was a reason in ABM treaty and the reason is still valid. Tiny or not tiny are technical details which can be changed in a matter of months.

That is simply not true. Just as you can't scale a fireworks rocket into a Saturn 5 in "a matter of months", you can't scale up the existing anti-ballistic systems from limited protection against a low number of unsophisticated missile into a comprehensive "Star Wars"-like shield capable of stopping hundreds or thousands of warheads.

Russia of course knows that fact very well, considering that it actually has deployed a limited anti-ballistic shield itself.

What the Americans/Europeans want is some measure of protection against rogue states (the smaller ones, anyway) to limit their exposure to blackmail. NATO repeatedly offered Russia co-operation on such a project so that both Europe and european Russia be covered under the system. The reply was always "nyet, nyet, nyet" since it servers Russia just right to have Europe slightly threatened by the likes of Iran. You can't blame the Americans for going forward without Russian approval in those circumstances. (After all, it's a well-established Russian position that national security and interest trumps treaty obligations, as demonstrated recently in Ukraine. To the Americans' credit, the US actually did withdraw from the treaty instead of simply breaking it.)

It is hokum to assert that respecting Russia's wishes is "preferential treatment". Russia is the only major power in history, as far as I can tell, which has voluntarily dissolved its own Empire in return for certain guarantees: mainly that NATO would not expand to its former imperial domains.

Where are those guarantees? Give me links or references to the treaties signed with USSR/Russia where Western countries promise in all perpetuity to treat all of Central and Eastern Europe as Russia's "former imperial domain" into which they shall never expand their reach/influence.

The red empire that extended from east Germany to the far east, suffocating under its yoke numerous European nations and capitals, was willingly and unilaterally dissolved by Russia: first by Gorbachev in Eastern Europe and then by Yeltsin in the USSR (after Gorbachev had tried to reform the USSR into a very loose confederacy).

That is only half-true. It is to Gorbachev's credit that he didn't oppose pro-Democracy movements in central/eastern Europe with force when he could have. For that he has our eternal gratitude (unlike in Russia, Gorby is still quite popular here). In reality, however, the Soviet empire was crumbling due to its accumulated economic, political and social problems. It would have collapsed sooner or later; what Gorbachev and Yeltsin did was they pragmatically let this happen without too much bloodshed.

It is NOT as you are trying to portray it, i.e. that an empire at the height of its power voluntarily chose to cease to exist out of goodness of its heart, that's bollocks. The British Empire and the French Empire went out under similar circumstances - they were no longer maintainable, so they were loosened and eventually disassembled. But it wouldn't have happened if they had worked well and fine and there had been no problems.

Many people have foolishly taken credit in the west for the fall of the USSR, trying to depict Russia as a "defeated power" and the collapse of the Red Empire as a western accomplishment, while in reality the main powers behind its dissolution were Yuri Andropov, Gorbachev and Yeltsin, not Reagan or Lech Walesa. Almost at any point, until the very final days, these reforms could have been reversed by Moscow and the tanks could have crushed the subject peoples, but time and time again it was Russia that refused to do so.

Which is good. It's like a criminal who's been holding 15 people hostage for 40 days deciding he's had enough and making a deal with the police for the release of the hostages in exchange for a full pardon.

But he can hardly demand from the police the right to become the legal guardian of these 15 people for the rest of their natural lives.

Basically, Russia gave away its immense empire: the empire it largely won in a heroic and defensive war.

Oh? So defeating an aggressor gives your the moral right to enslave the countries you've released from the said aggressor during the course of the war?

You have very strange views concerning justice and the rights of nations, I might add.

Yet, in return for this unprecedented and benign action Russia has received only the most spiteful hatred and contempt. When it comes to forming their policy or views regarding Russia, Westerners mainly listen to Eastern Europeans, especially the Baltics, which are often viscerally russophobic and probably would have ethnically cleansed their local Russian populations if it weren't for the threat of foreign intervention. The politics in the Baltic countries are deeply poisoned by ethnic hatreds, yet their views on Russia are often taken as somehow deeply insightful.

See, such baseless accusations and aggressive emotive appeals are what I want to avoid in this thread. So either

a) you back those accusations up with EVIDENCE, or
b) you restrain yourself.

What you say goes against the bulk of evidence. Former Communist countries wished no conflict with Russia; what they wished was to be left alone to determine their own way in the world. Moscow not always was willing to acquiesce, hence troubles. However, until very very recently, the West at large and Western Europe in particular treated the complaints by the Baltic states (frequently the subject of Russian spying, cybernetic attacks, and military posturing at their borders) as little more than an annoyance. It wasn't until Russia invaded Ukraine they started listening.

And then there is this western obsession with Russian politics. We're always told that Putin crushed Russian democracy and that Russia was this happy liberal paradise of democracy under the rule of Yeltsin. Nevermind that he fired at the parliament building with tanks. Nevermind that numerous journalists disappeared under his reign as well. Nevermind that Yeltsin probably stole the 1996 elections. Nope its all Putin's fault.

I fear you're attacking a Strawman here. Yes, there is a tendency to view Yeltsin era through rose-tinted glasses, but that's only because he wasn't so overtly authoritarian. And in any case, when Putin came to power, he was seen in the West as a reformist, a guy the West could work with. Sure, he was a bit on the "macho authoritarian" side, but well, that's Russia.

The view changed when Putin started rolling back even those Yeltsin-era democratic reforms that actually could work; when media were subjected to Kremlin's control, when journalists critical of Putin started dying, when people started being arrested at the mere hint of public opposition to the regime, and so on and so forth. Off course, when Putin made opposing the West in the international sphere his main political agenda, then the real problems started.

Westerners seem to have this silly delusion that authoritarian rulers like Putin and Saddam are just isolated evils. Get rid of the bad guy and democracy and liberty will flourish! Of course they refuse to accept that such characters stem from a rotten political culture at large. Russia went from Czarist absolutism straight to Stalinism and only now has its first taste of so called liberal democracy. There is no tradition of civil society or democracy in Russia: so leaders like Putin are more or less inevitable and so we should try to work with him rather than mock him at every turn.

Which is exactly what was tried in Russia and what the West is doing with respect to China, Vietnam, and many other authoritarian countries. The current troubles are not a result of any Western "human rights crusade", but the result of Putin's active a deliberate confrontational policies aimed at provoking conflicts with the West, be it Europe or the United States or both.
 
I keep seeing Russians saying this. So why don't you do more to oppose him then? :rolleyes:

You can't support everything he does and then hide behind "but he isn't Russia!"

Russia, almost a century ago tried to take down their absolute ruler. It didn't end exactly well in the long run.

Also, perhaps even the Russians see a romantic revival in the face of Putin, a resurrected Alexander Nevsky, if you wish, protecting you from the evil Westerners and their weird obsession with teenager singers.

Then again, I'm not even Russian or well-met with the situation. Putin could've bought 150 million people to vote. Who knows.
 
Where are those guarantees? Give me links or references to the treaties signed with USSR/Russia where Western countries promise in all perpetuity to treat all of Central and Eastern Europe as Russia's "former imperial domain" into which they shall never expand their reach/influence.

The American representatives at the negotiations in Berlin stated, in official capacity and with sincere intent, that NATO would not expand eastwards: that the US would not accept new members east of Berlin.

This wasn't unknown either: the debate did go on during the Clinton days and people did remind the US about this: but such criticism was dismissed out of hand.

That is only half-true. It is to Gorbachev's credit that he didn't oppose pro-Democracy movements in central/eastern Europe with force when he could have. For that he has our eternal gratitude (unlike in Russia, Gorby is still quite popular here). In reality, however, the Soviet empire was crumbling due to its accumulated economic, political and social problems. It would have collapsed sooner or later; what Gorbachev and Yeltsin did was they pragmatically let this happen without too much bloodshed.

Nonsense. The Soviet Empire was a largely closed off economy: they had the resources to go on for another hundred years if they had re-prioritized their economic output toward civilian needs and restrained the military industrial complex that disrupted the economy in numerous ways (not just by soaking up funds, but also by literally stealing and confiscating resources from the civilian sector). They had enough tanks, soldiers and nuclear weapons to preserve their empire against all opposition, so they could have shredded the military budget and still kept a lean force to preserve the empire.

I'm not saying they would have flourished as an economy, but they would have endured and perhaps modestly prospered. The USSR could have very well pursued a policy of pure economic reform and crushed political opposition: none of that is impossible. It was Gorbachev's choice not to do it. It was Yeltsin choice to put the final nail in the coffin. Lech Walesa and all your vaunted dissidents never amounted to squat in this process.

It is NOT as you are trying to portray it, i.e. that an empire at the height of its power voluntarily chose to cease to exist out of goodness of its heart, that's bollocks.

But that's exactly what happened until the very final days. The Soviet empire was not the British empire. It was never driven by profit, mostly because the communists never knew how to measure it (except Stalin).

The British Empire and the French Empire went out under similar circumstances - they were no longer maintainable, so they were loosened and eventually disassembled. But it wouldn't have happened if they had worked well and fine and there had been no problems.

Which is good. It's like a criminal who's been holding 15 people hostage for 40 days deciding he's had enough and making a deal with the police for the release of the hostages in exchange for a full pardon.
But he can hardly demand from the police the right to become the legal guardian of these 15 people for the rest of their natural lives.

Reducing nations down to individuals belongs to Polandball, not to any meaningful conversation.

The eastern bloc was internationally recognized and legitimate. Yes it was a harsh and undemocratic entity, but I never disputed that: Russia's themselves came to recognize that fact eventually and unilaterally dissolved their empire... which is an unprecedented event. Not even the British did that.

The eastern Europeans are wholly ungrateful and do not understand how lucky they are. There is no reason why the red empire couldn't exist today. None whatsoever. North Korea still goes on, despite all the predictions it would collapse tomorrow.

If the Russian's were willing to let so much go in exchange for one small promise -- that the anti-russian coalition known as NATO would not embrace its former empire -- then yes I do consider this an instance of typical shameless backstabbing by the western leaders.

And its not just a question of right and wrong: the NATO expansion has most certainly vastly enhanced the anti-democratic movement in Russia. Putin and his kind are far stronger than ever before and all they have to point to is NATO and say, "there is our enemy. That's the coalition that aims to destroy us."

Oh? So defeating an aggressor gives your the moral right to enslave the countries you've released from the said aggressor during the course of the war?

I never said it was moral. Empires never are really. But unlike the British and the French, or any other empire in history, Russian's let their empire go willingly. That's the difference and its never talked about in the West. But Russia and Russians never receive any of the credit: instead they were treated like a defeated power from day one. Instead Russia is mocked relentlessly. The Sochi Olympics was a like a volcano of russophobic claptrap in Europe. Putin is evil. Everything is evil. This is like the Berlin 1936 olympics etc etc. Even in official capacities in the west, the russophobic spiel reached wholly unseen level. It's really tiresome.

What you say goes against the bulk of evidence. Former Communist countries wished no conflict with Russia; what they wished was to be left alone to determine their own way in the world. Moscow not always was willing to acquiesce, hence troubles. However, until very very recently, the West at large and Western Europe in particular treated the complaints by the Baltic states (frequently the subject of Russian spying, cybernetic attacks, and military posturing at their borders) as little more than an annoyance. It wasn't until Russia invaded Ukraine they started listening.

Nonsense. The eastern European countries have been pissing in Russia's eye from day one. It doesn't matter what the dispute with Russia is, Moscow's position on the matter is dismissed out of hand as the ramblings of some evil dark lord.

The Western countries definitely listened to Baltic countries and completely ignored the internal ethnic disputes within these countries: i.e. the visceral anti-russian ethnic tension that predominates their politics. It's not uncommon, as a Finn with several Estonian friends, to hear stuff like "russians should all be taken behind the Sauna and shot in the neck." Do you really want to listen to these people?

Western leaders should instead understand the reality that there is nothing we can learn from the eastern Europeans. And we shouldn't overestimate the strength of their democracies either, as we can see from the dismal situation in Hungary.

I fear you're attacking a Strawman here. Yes, there is a tendency to view Yeltsin era through rose-tinted glasses, but that's only because he wasn't so overtly authoritarian.


Well he did fire at the parliament building with tanks, many journalists died during his time as well (they're never talked about though because, well, Yeltsin was our guy) and he did steal the 1996 elections without a doubt.

And in any case, when Putin came to power, he was seen in the West as a reformist, a guy the West could work with. Sure, he was a bit on the "macho authoritarian" side, but well, that's Russia.

yes. He was an authoritarian ruler, but he did what the West told him to do. Ultimately, the west never cared about Russian democracy.


Which is exactly what was tried in Russia and what the West is doing with respect to China, Vietnam, and many other authoritarian countries. The current troubles are not a result of any Western "human rights crusade", but the result of Putin's active a deliberate confrontational policies aimed at provoking conflicts with the West, be it Europe or the United States or both.

No. The problem is NATO expansion. The problem is the complete and utter llack of even the most elementary respect for Russia's interests. Actually the US does a lot more to accommodate China's geopolitical goals when you think about it. The US does very little and ultimately doesn't even care about the human rights situation and the various subjugated nations in the PRC, whose human rights situation is actually far worse than Russia's.

The US made its promises and then broke them all. And now they're oh-so terribly shocked when Putin goes against them and with overwhelming Russian public support.
 
I can't really call North Korea "functioning". But I, as an ungrateful mongrel, can't say much. We went away from the "red empire", where all was functioning, lines nonexisting, and certainly no starvation, or electricity regimes or...
 
I can't really call North Korea "functioning". But I, as an ungrateful mongrel, can't say much. We went away from the "red empire", where all was functioning, lines nonexisting, and certainly no starvation, or electricity regimes or...

Yet North Korea exists and there is virtually nothing we can do to undo it. And North Korea is much weaker then the USSR.

The USSR and its empire could have easily endured for a century more. There is no reason to presume it wouldn't. The Red army, even in a weakened state, could have easily crushed any uprising within the combloc countries. And the USSR itself might have even modestly prospered with a reduced military-industrial complex (which taxed the economy immensely, probably more then any other Soviet policy). The oil/grain problem could have been resolved with de-collectivization of the agriculture, thus freeing USSR of the need to buy grain from abroad. I never said that the Red Empire could have actually flourished or become somehow legitimated due to successful economic policy. That's of course extremely far fetched.

Clinging on to this delusion that the USSR was brought down by singing Estonians or Polish organized labor is baffling and ridiculous. It distorts our view of the historical realities and continues to poison Europe-Russia relations.

certainly no starvation

Actually there wasn't much starvation at all. The lines in the stores were definitely daunting but USSR in the 1980s wasn't like North Korea in 1992.
 
The American representatives at the negotiations in Berlin stated, in official capacity and with sincere intent, that NATO would not expand eastwards: that the US would not accept new members east of Berlin.

Prove it - give me some relevant sources.

Of course, if there was a promise given to the USSR - which collapsed - under wholly different circumstances (i.e. when the USSR still existed and the West was unsure whether the Cold War would continue, after the reshuffle in central Europe, or not), it is HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE whether such promises, not given in writing and not consulted with the central European (and probably neither the western European) countries have any basis whatsoever.

Nonsense. The Soviet Empire was a largely closed off economy:(snip)

Nonsense is what you're writing; you haven't lived in the East Bloc, you have zero idea of what you're talking about. Since around 1985, there was rapidly growing public discontent with living standards, chronic shortages of basic consumer goods, and other hardships. These were partially a result of the runaway military spending which the USSR couldn't afford - not in levels necessary to keep pace with the West. In the 1980s about 15-20% of the Soviet GDP went into the military, which was unsustainable. The USSR periodically suffered shortages of basic foodstuffs and depended, ironically enough, on Western supplies of grain.

North Korea today exists in its impoverished hellholish state because it is subsidized by China - just enough to barely survive. Nobody was there to subsidize the USSR. It could have, conceivable, gone down the Chinese route - i.e. liberalise the economy, reduce military spending but maintain an authoritarian regime. But without reform, it would have collapsed economically under the weight of its obsolete industry, inefficient agriculture and suffocating military expenses.

It was Gorbachev's choice not to do it

No, it was the inability of the Soviet régime to reform in the same way the Chinese system did. It was too fossilised, too inflexible to soak up Deng Xiaoping-style market reforms. Once Gorby started fiddling with the basics, the whole structure started collapsing.

It was even worse in the Warsaw Pact countries, where their respective Communist régimes had ZERO legitimacy in the eyes of the people - they were (rightfully) seen as Moscow's puppets, unworthy of representing them. Once the leash was loosened, the regimes were dead in the water. If in 1989 the Soviets changed their mind and tried to intervene militarily, they'd probably have caused a general uprising in East Germany, Poland, Hungary and most likely even Czechoslovakia, and then there would have been regular war, because people there were fully and totally fed up.

With its own economy crumbling, it is very doubtful the Soviets could have kept their empire EVEN IF THEY CHOSE TO. Gorbachev and his people knew that and chose, thank the Gods, to avoid this conflagration.

Reducing nations down to individuals belongs to Polandball, not to any meaningful conversation.

I am sorry, but when you started your massive stereotyping of central/eastern European countries, I felt the need to respond with a similar-level analogy.

The eastern bloc was internationally recognized and legitimate. Yes it was a harsh and undemocratic entity, but I never disputed that: Russia's themselves came to recognize that fact eventually and unilaterally dissolved their empire... which is an unprecedented event. Not even the British did that.

Again, no. The Soviets did not give up power because they chose to out of the goodness of their hearts; they gave it up (sort of) because there was no other way - it was either cling to power at all costs and spark a terrible bloodshed likely culminating in a civil war (which could end with the regime officials being shot by the revolutionaries), or throw in the towel and go down in history as more-or-less sensible people, as reformers. Gorbachev chose the second option.

The eastern Europeans are wholly ungrateful and do not understand how lucky they are.

Right :rolleyes:

If the Russian's were willing to let so much go in exchange for one small promise -- that the anti-russian coalition known as NATO would not embrace its former empire -- then yes I do consider this an instance of typical shameless backstabbing by the western leaders.

Your whole argument is based on a claim you KEEP FAILING TO SUBSTANTIATE. Without evidence, and pretty damn serious one at that, it's just your fairy tale you keep droning on about like a broken record.

And its not just a question of right and wrong: the NATO expansion has most certainly vastly enhanced the anti-democratic movement in Russia. Putin and his kind are far stronger than ever before and all they have to point to is NATO and say, "there is our enemy. That's the coalition that aims to destroy us."

How is this Russian paranoia concerning NATO the fault of the West? Besides expanding, how did NATO actually threaten Russia? Mind you - it until now ACTIVELY AVOIDED placing any permanent bases/large numbers of troops in the new member states - specifically to avoid provoking Russia. Yet the Russians still maintain that NATO is the enemy.

It is surreal.

Nonsense. The eastern European countries have been pissing in Russia's eye from day one. It doesn't matter what the dispute with Russia is, Moscow's position on the matter is dismissed out of hand as the ramblings of some evil dark lord.

More insults, more unsubstantiated claims, more nonsense. If this is how you want to "discuss" here, then I am not interested.

The Western countries definitely listened to Baltic countries and completely ignored the internal ethnic disputes within these countries: i.e. the visceral anti-russian ethnic tension that predominates their politics. It's not uncommon, as a Finn with several Estonian friends, to hear stuff like "russians should all be taken behind the Sauna and shot in the neck." Do you really want to listen to these people?

You are friends with strange people, I guess. I'll leave this to Yeekim to answer if he shows up; he should be able to shoot you down better than me.

Western leaders should instead understand the reality that there is nothing we can learn from the eastern Europeans. And we shouldn't overestimate the strength of their democracies either, as we can see from the dismal situation in Hungary.

Yes, ignoring their unique perspective, experience with Soviet/Russian imperialism, and economic transformation is certainly a good way to increase knowledge :p

No. The problem is NATO expansion. The problem is the complete and utter llack of even the most elementary respect for Russia's interests.

In what way? List the major issues in which you think the West is unduly and illegitimately infringing on Russia's interests.

As per argument No.3 of the Opening Post, I do not consider "the right for empire" as anything legitimate the West should feel obliged to respect, at the expense of those who are subject to these imperial tastes.

Actually the US does a lot more to accommodate China's geopolitical goals when you think about it. The US does very little and ultimately doesn't even care about the human rights situation and the various subjugated nations in the PRC, whose human rights situation is actually far worse than Russia's.

I'd say the West (in Asia it is probably better to speak about the US) constrains China far more than it constrains Russia. The reason there is not so much overt conflict with China is that China is not trying to undermine the international system which it needs to prosper. It may change in the future, or not. So far China isn't invading neighbouring countries and annexing their land (if you don't count a few uninhabited rocks, which are disputed).

The US made its promises and then broke them all. And now they're oh-so terribly shocked when Putin goes against them and with overwhelming Russian public support.

For the ZILLIONTH time - prove your claim concerning the Western guarantees, or drop the argument.
 
Prove it - give me some relevant sources.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...est-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

Western archives agree with my assessment.

In other words, during some of the most pivotal negotiations of our century, the US made a sincere and official promise -- and it broke that promise. If the Russians had done something like that, we would never hear the end of it.

Of course, if there was a promise given to the USSR - which collapsed

Russia is the legal successor state to the USSR. Any promise made to Moscow in the 1980s is a promise that stands in the 2000s -- especially since Russia kept its end of the promise and far more, vastly more than it promised. Russia freed the entirety of its European holdings and more.

Nonsense is what you're writing; you haven't lived in the East Bloc, you have zero idea of what you're talking about.

Actually, we know more now then those people who lived in the East Bloc and were kept dark of many things --- which we today know.

Since around 1985, there was rapidly growing public discontent with living standards, chronic shortages of basic consumer goods, and other hardships. These were partially a result of the runaway military spending which the USSR couldn't afford - not in levels necessary to keep pace with the West. In the 1980s about 15-20% of the Soviet GDP went into the military, which was unsustainable. The USSR periodically suffered shortages of basic foodstuffs and depended, ironically enough, on Western supplies of grain.

Indeed. And Russia could have reduced military spending and reformed its agriculture, resolving the main problems of its empire. It didn't need to dissolve its entire empire ... and certainly that made no economic sense to Moscow. In other words, the imperial draw-down was a voluntary, well-meaning and almost entirely, until the very end, a unilateral decision.

The Eastern European countries always looked up to Moscow and to Gorbachev for approval of their reforms. If Gorbachev had said no and send in the tanks instead, that would have been the end of it.

North Korea today exists in its impoverished hellholish state because it is subsidized by China - just enough to barely survive. Nobody was there to subsidize the USSR.

Actually, yes there was: the vast wealth of USSR itself, which had previously subsidized North Korea and other Leninist states. Ultimately, agricultural reforms and military cuts were all that Gorbachev needed to do if he was simply content with a USSR that would survive to the next century.

How do I know this is true? Because a lot of smart people though that this is what would happen. The CIA predicted that the USSR would in fact endure. There was no apparent reason why it would collapse: they after all had immense wealth, some 30 percent of the earths natural resources and small populations. The CIA is given a lot of bad rep for this nowadays, but they were basically right, except they failed to factor in Gorbachev's idealism and the desires of the Russian people themselves to seek for a new way.

Gorby wanted a democratic and voluntary socialist state that allowed for secession (although he was more willing to let go of eastern Europe and more possessive of the SSRs). In the end, even Gorby's radicalism proved too little and Russians gathere d around Yeltsin (when he was still popular) and they let go of all the SSRs as well.


It could have, conceivable, gone down the Chinese route - i.e. liberalise the economy, reduce military spending but maintain an authoritarian regime. But without reform, it would have collapsed economically under the weight of its obsolete industry, inefficient agriculture and suffocating military expenses.

Even liberalization of the economy would have been unnecessary: I'm talking about regime survival and not of economy prosperity. The red empire only needed to implement military cuts and agricultural de-collectivization. Those two steps, perpetually delayed during Khrushchev and Bhreznev days, were easily within Gorby's abilities to implement.

No, it was the inability of the Soviet régime to reform in the same way the Chinese system did. It was too fossilised, too inflexible to soak up Deng Xiaoping-style market reforms. Once Gorby started fiddling with the basics, the whole structure started collapsing.

No. Gorbachev reforms were hardly basic and diametrically opposed to Deng Ziaopings style. He created whole new democratic institutions, encouraged nationalism within the SSRs by appointing new soviet satraps that liberalized the culture and reversed russification, he permitted a radically free media and so on and so forth. The Chinese never did so much, and in fact pretty much crushed revolutionary violence during the Tiananmen revolt. I would argue that press freedom is significantly worse in today's China than it was in Gorby's USSR. And Gorby's USSR was vastly more democratic than today's China for sure.

It was even worse in the Warsaw Pact countries, where their respective Communist régimes had ZERO legitimacy in the eyes of the people - they were (rightfully) seen as Moscow's puppets, unworthy of representing them. Once the leash was loosened, the regimes were dead in the water. If in 1989 the Soviets changed their mind and tried to intervene militarily, they'd probably have caused a general uprising in East Germany, Poland, Hungary and most likely even Czechoslovakia, and then there would have been regular war, because people there were fully and totally fed up.

Total nonsense. That's just not the way human nature works. There is simply no reason to presume that a Soviet crack down on Poland would have provoked a general uprising in the combloc countries (especially within the context of a much harsher gorby-free USSR). On the contrary it would have probably put to an end to all of the revolutionary fervor and the red satraps in Europe would have been vindicated and encouraged to savagely crack down on their own domestic opposition. The opposition would have been discouraged by the knowledge that even if they managed to unseat the local satraps, the Red army and its vassals would come down on them with more tanks than god, and one would help them because of the nuclear umbrella.

With its own economy crumbling,

It was definitely stagnating, but not really crumbling until Gorbachev started to shred the planned links within the economy. The Brezhnev economy was austere, undynamic and harsh, (except for the privileged class) but it wasn't going anywhere without a huge shock.

Again, no. The Soviets did not give up power because they chose to out of the goodness of their hearts;

Well actually, call me naive, but I think they did. Not all Soviets, certainly not the Stalinist like Erich Honecker who abhorred Gorbachev, but certainly the reform movement was very strong in the KGB whose agents routinely traveled abroad and saw democracy and markets deliver genuine prosperity. It was the Soviets in Moscow who realized that they should let eastern Europe go and reform the system utterly. They eventually turned against Gorbachev when he proved unable to hold on to the USSR's "holy territory", but their effort was half-hearted at best.

Your whole argument is based on a claim you KEEP FAILING TO SUBSTANTIATE. Without evidence, and pretty damn serious one at that, it's just your fairy tale you keep droning on about like a broken record.

No. All I'm saying is based on well known facts. They're all there in the economic records and in biographies and on wikipedia articles. I'm just stating the facts with a narrative that makes sense.

How is this Russian paranoia concerning NATO the fault of the West? Besides expanding, how did NATO actually threaten Russia?

NATO is an anti-russian coalition with no other purpose: it usually comes with various economic programs meant to isolate Russia. Its perfectly reasonable for Russia to try to keep it beyond its borders. If NATO expands to Ukraine, where large Russian industry and ethnic population exists, it will be the average Russian who stands to lose the most. If NATO or in general, western power spreads to central Asia, and the Caspian pipeline is realized along with further NATO infrastructure in the region, it will be the Russians who suffer the economic penalties.

You are friends with strange people, I guess. I'll leave this to Yeekim to answer if he shows up; he should be able to shoot you down better than me.

Strange? Hardly. More like the typical conversation in any Estonian comment section if the subject concerns the local Russians or Russians in general. Estonia has high poverty? Russians. Estonia has a rampant HIV/AIDS epidemic. Blame the Russians. Crime? Blame Russians. Russians? take them behind the Sauna and shoot them in the neck. I can't read Latvian or Lithuanian, but I can't imagine their conversation being any better. So, do we really want to listen to people like this for advice concerning Russia?

Yes, ignoring their unique perspective, experience with Soviet/Russian imperialism, and economic transformation is certainly a good way to increase knowledge :p

Which lends to an incredible level and depth of bias and hatred toward the Russians, which has only helped to strengthen the western caricature of Russia that always poisons west-Russia relations. Just look at Sochi and the orgy of anti-russian mockery and ridicule leading up to it in the media. The western policy makers get their news from just such sources, not from say the hundreds of Finnish business people who tell a different narrative of Russia. Estonians and other eastern Europeans are listened to instead because their visceral hatred helps to confirm Anglo-American stereotypes, because their views legitimate the prevailing power and policy, not because they have anything productive to add to the conversation.
In what way? List the major issues in which you think the West is unduly and illegitimately infringing on Russia's interests.

NATO expansion eastwards is the worst, but there are many smaller slights that were still painful. The US through the IMF gave numerous recommendations and promises to Russia, which it utterly failed to uphold, including broad economic assistance in return for shock therapy, much like they had done in Poland. That didn't happen. Instead, when Russia was undergoing its worst recession during the 1990s, the United States formed an aluminium cartel to keep out Russian aluminum and in similar vain, stopped the importation of Russian uranium, both would have been major sources of revenue for the weak Russian economy.

As per argument No.3 of the Opening Post, I do not consider "the right for empire" as anything legitimate the West should feel obliged to respect, at the expense of those who are subject to these imperial tastes.

Denying the sincere promises made to Russia is dishonest and self-serving. Denying the past reality of the Empire is like denying gravity. Denying that Russia has strong, legitimate interests in Ukraine is also like denying gravity. You can do it, but its not healthy.
 
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