"Safety" vs. Freedom?

PrinceOfLeigh

Wigan, England
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
4,527
Location
Comander of the Armies of the North
Upon noticing a couple of “safety threads” on CFC I feel it has become necessary to vent my anger regarding the “safety first” attitude of modern day society.

In recent times there have been many policies authorised on the basis that they “increase safety”. Speed bumps and speed cameras now populate almost every square inch of England. Restaurants will not heat food for children (baby food) due to health and safety. There are now very few jobs in which you don’t need to fill out a health and safety form each time you decide to breathe. It seems that any policy will be accepted if the author simply suggests “safety” will be increased.

The result has been a creeping reduction in civil liberties.

One example is a duel carriageway near to where I live. It is the East Lancashire Road and runs from Liverpool to Manchester. It was a 70 mph straight road which was designed to transport people speedily throughout Lancashire. It carries literally hundreds of thousands of cars per day. Now, the speed limit has been dropped to 60 mph and roundabouts have been placed all along it. The result? The road has now become a car park for the majority of the day. The road was changed on the basis that 245 accidents had been had in four years! In four years millions of cars must have travelled along that road and yet as a result of 245 accidents everyone must now suffer.

Many trees in my local area have the lower limbs sawn off so that children will not climb them to reach conkers.

Health and Safety Legislation has reduced the ability of charitable organisations to provide services to others. Volunteers are no longer able to cook for others unless they have first taken a cookery course. Despite having cooked for their families for years.

Laws requiring the use of seatbelts in the front seat of cars or helmets to be worn on bicycles or motorcycles demonstrate how the State has taken the freedom of choice from it’s citizens. True, a helmet or seatbelt may save my life, but given that I am hurting no one other than myself if I don’t use them, I should have the right to choose.

Whilst the attack on civil liberties is admittedly not as pressing as the concerns regarding anti-terror legislation, the epidemic has become so profound that Prince Charles was provoked into getting off his arse and wrote to the Lord Chancellor about his concerns. Some of the examples in this post are lifted from that letter.

Admittedly, as I work in a personal injury law firm, I suppose I am part of the problem. Fear of lawsuits from children injured at school has meant that tackle rugby is no longer played in schools. But the answer to the increasing litigious nature of society is not more rules, it is less. The blame culture has ensured that anyone breaking the rules is punished or sued. If we remove those rules we can live in a freer society in which we accept we are at risk, but we are free to take risks should we choose to do so.

The question I ask is this:
Would you prefer to live in a free society with risk, or a risk-adverse society in which everyone must obey the rules?

In case you can’t tell I got done for driving without a seatbelt. £30 b*****d quid :mad:
 
Reasonable precautions for safety are fine with me. The "nanny police" that try to do everything under the sun to ensure that nobody is hurt, ever, drive me crazy. It wouldn't surprise me if someday we're all forced to drive solar powered nerf cars with 20 mph governors.

Life is dangerous from time to time, deal with it.
 
In general I find bureaucratic safety regulations odious. However, there are two legitimate functions served by limiting some freedoms in the name of safety:

I) The protection of the weak from the strong. The government has a mandate and a responsibility to prevent parties from either subjecting others to unreasonable risks they themselves need not face, or making calculations of risk that affect other people without giving them input. Waste disposal restrictions, food safety and labelling standards, drug laws, the laws of the road, etc. fall into this category. I hasten to add that it isn't very important to apply these to the average person-- this is about protecting average people from corporations and speeders and junkies. There's no need to interfere in the interactions of relative equals, so telling charity volunteers to go take a cookery class is stupid. And, of course, what protection is offered must be limited to real, significant risks and harms; it's not necessary to bend over backwards to give people excuses to sue.

II) To encourage safe behaviour. This makes the most sense with regard to the use of seatbelts and cyclists' helmets, for example. Forcing people to calculate purely internal risks in a certain way is beyond reasonable limits for legislation, I think, so campaigns to punish people who don't wear seatbelts are misguided. However, clearly it would be better for everyone if more people made use of these basic pieces of safety equipment. The government can bestow a normative status upon the use of seatbelts, say, by having a seatbelt law on the books, but by having a weak sanction and super-lenient enforcement of it. That way, nobody really gets bothered by the law, but society indicates that it is in favour of seatbelt use; and the opinions of society guide the opinions of individuals, so they will be more likely to use safety equipment than if no law were on the books. I think "You should really do this, but I won't make you" is a much more reasonable and useful attitude in this case than "Do this!" or "Whatever."

In general, as I say, I favour the preservation of freedom, and as much freedom as possible, unless there is a very good reason for restricting it.
 
Live free or die. :D

Please, come join us, the state with a legislature that just shot down a restaurant smoking ban, RealID, and continues to resist a helmet law. It isn't perfect, but it's better than most. :woohoo:
 
oh, go on then, I'll quote Ben Franklin:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
 
:clap: @ Taliesin

An excellent post on the alternative view to the OP. I had some of those counter-arguments in mind when I was drafting it. My degree disseration was actually regarding the law and it's inability to punish corporations who push profit over safety. I agree alot more with point I than II however.

:goodjob:
 
While I feel that anyone who drives a car w/o a seatbelt or rides a motorcycle w/o a helmet is an idiot, I also believe that the governments role should only be in educating people to use safety measures, not in forcing them to do so. Anyone riding a motorcycle w/o a helmet has a high probability of qualifiying for a Darwin Award and removing himself from the gene pool anyway... problem solved! :D

Laws should only be used to protect people from other people, not to 'protect you from yourself'. It's necessary, therefore, to prohibit people from driving at excessive speeds, because they may be risking other's lives by doing so... but if they're stupid enough not to wear a seatbelt in spite of having been thoroughly warned then... it's their problem!

Edit: Taliesin put it much better than I did, but I hadn't seen his post yet - I agree completely!
 
I work in a hospital with some of the most bizarrely anal health and safety laws imaginable, I find them laughable to be honest as do most people.

I climbed trees as a kid I climbed cliff faces I did all sorts of dangerous s**t, if I fell and brained myself I also didn't go crying to the council for a law suit pay out.

Retards who bring law suits against people for their own stupidity should know better, ah didums your stupid learn from it, if you do it again your a moron. If you brained yourself climbing Nelsons column, **** happens :lol: People are weak and selfish and foolish, I say let them die, Darwinism is the solution to this problem, law suits for petty reasons or because of stupidity should be illegal IMO people should get 40 days for wasting the courts time, that'll make people think twice. Reserve law suits for genuine misconducts by companies and people both public and private, not for a greedy little arse with a penchant for filing pointless law suits to exploit the system, or for people who are too stupid to use the common sense they were born with.

I have no sympathy for idiots and no sympathy for a system that encourages idiots to sue people.
 
Taliesin said:
II) To encourage safe behaviour. This makes the most sense with regard to the use of seatbelts and cyclists' helmets, for example. Forcing people to calculate purely internal risks in a certain way is beyond reasonable limits for legislation, I think, so campaigns to punish people who don't wear seatbelts are misguided. However, clearly it would be better for everyone if more people made use of these basic pieces of safety equipment. The government can bestow a normative status upon the use of seatbelts, say, by having a seatbelt law on the books, but by having a weak sanction and super-lenient enforcement of it. That way, nobody really gets bothered by the law, but society indicates that it is in favour of seatbelt use; and the opinions of society guide the opinions of individuals, so they will be more likely to use safety equipment than if no law were on the books. I think "You should really do this, but I won't make you" is a much more reasonable and useful attitude in this case than "Do this!" or "Whatever."

In principle I agree with you, but I couldn't disagree more with the bolded part. First, you're detracting from the whole of the law. Every time someone drives by a police car doing more than the posted speed limit, the respect paid to all law drops a bit - after all, who's to know which law gets enforced 100% and which law gets enforced 20%? Second, you're leaving the tort law machine to do it's dirty work suing for everything under the sun, because hey, what they did was illegal, and that it almost never gets enforced isn't actually admissible. Third, you're allowing the law to be applied arbitrarily - the law that one cop or DA understands should only be enforced in extreme cases, another cop or DA feels is up there with premeditated murder and enforces 100% of the time (see anti-sodomy, blue laws, "marital aid" sales and other "moral precedent" laws). Fourth, legislators that feel that a law will be enforced very leniently might vote for legislation that they'd otherwise vote against. I would say that less laws are generally better, and giving legislators a reason to be more likely to vote for more laws is a bad thing.
 
Safety laws aren't directed towards safety, but towards money. Don't be mistaken that the state cares too much about each one's safety - they do care of avoiding payment of the cost associated with the (possible) injury. From the state's point of view, if they enforce a safer policy they save money - it's very simple.
 
atreas said:
Safety laws aren't directed towards safety, but towards money. Don't be mistaken that the state cares too much about each one's safety - they do care of avoiding payment of the cost associated with the (possible) injury. From the state's point of view, if they enforce a safer policy they save money - it's very simple.

Pray tell, how does not having a seatbelt law cost the state money?

Other than in being able to write tickets for noncompliance, that is?
 
You make good points, IglooDude. I do think it's useful and permissible to somehow encourage people to use safety equipment, but as you point out, there are too many practical problems with using laws to do this that I hadn't considered. I guess information campaigns, especially in schools, might be the best method.

I think there should be laws to enforce the use of seatbelts and helmets and such for minors, or at least under-14s, because this falls under the category of significant power imbalance. Children are subjected to real risks without giving effective consent by parents who don't make them wear seatbelts, so they should be protected. (As an added bonus, this seems to create normativity without imposing any unreasonable restrictions on adults. Woohoo! :smug: )
 
For people who state that "anyone who doesn't wear a seatbelt is an idiot" let me just paint you a pciture before we go playing with absolutes.

First of all, this post is based upon my own experience. It is correct to say that the PC involved was a pedantic son of a b***** but at the end of the day he is applying the letter of the law and therefore it is the law which is wrong not him.

I had stopped for petrol on my way to work. The petrol Station is litterally 100 yards from the enterence to work. After filling up I, shock horror, didn't put my seatbelt on for the remaining 100 yard journey. The road wasn't busy and is not a motorway. Within the 100 yards I was pulled and dished with a fine.

The point is that I used my discretion of whether or not it was a good idea to wear my seatbelt. Evaluating the risks, I thought it not worth it and, except the fine, I was right for I am still here today to tell the tale.

Would I wear a seatbelt whilst travelling in fog on an icy motorway? Yes. Should I have that discretion and not the State? Yes.

EDIT: Having said the above, I also agree with Taliesin that in some cases "safety" should be mandatory (i.e. minors)
 
Taliesin said:
You make good points, IglooDude. I do think it's useful and permissible to somehow encourage people to use safety equipment, but as you point out, there are too many practical problems with using laws to do this that I hadn't considered. I guess information campaigns, especially in schools, might be the best method.
You have to becareful of the government propaganda machine. Think about sex education under Bush and Clinton.

Less laws and just presenting information is the least of all evils, but it has its own problems too.

PrinceOfLeigh said:
Would you prefer to live in a free society with risk, or a risk-adverse society in which everyone must obey the rules?
Um, false dichotomy?
 
PrinceOfLeigh said:
Would I wear a seatbelt whilst travelling in fog on an icy motorway? Yes. ShouldI have that discretion and not the State? Yes.
Like I said, you should be blaming people who don't do those things for needing the law that screwed you out of £30.
 
IglooDude said:
Pray tell, how does not having a seatbelt law cost the state money?

Other than in being able to write tickets for noncompliance, that is?
I wonder if it costs the insurance lobby money?
 
Back
Top Bottom