Scandinavia SUCKS

[Algeroth]

This thread reminds me about how I learned yesterday that - so tvtropes says - there's apparently a genre called Scandinavian/Nordic Noir, which basically does the same thing as film noir did for America, except with Scandinavia.

Good for you to discover it only now, bookstores here are swarmed by it for at least five years.

 

[Tee Kay]

They don't ban it because banning stuff doesn't work. Everyone remember the Prohibition?

What he said. Actually, no need to go that far into the past. Just the War on Drugs.

It sure isn't the fairest solution, but it's the most practical solution. People have a bit more incentives to stop killing themselves, governments gets a cash injection for the next few decades to build highways and stuff, and crime rates don't spike because the country is suddenly overrun with smugglers and gangsters. In civilised countries with universal healthcare, there's the added bonus of free help for addicts who want to quit smoking.

 

[jackelgull]

I stand by my position. I don't care what issues the govt has if they ban it. Build more prisons for the criminals that smuggle.

Those criminals are just fulfilling a demand that is there in society. It is impossible to eliminate alcohol from the American experience it is so ingrained in there. As long as the demand is there suppressing the criminals won't work because profiteers will find a way to profit and they might bribe cops and use funds to move into more atrocious activities. It would require more money than the government can afford to spend. Taxing the stuff makes money, supplies demand in moderation and allies the public against the criminal element because the public no longer needs the criminals to provide a demand. This is why the war on drugs is largely failing. The power of the market is nigh on invincible. Taxation while not the perfect solution for limiting the use of substances that hurt other people as well as yourself nevertheless offers a compromise between individual freedom and the public good.

 

[Arwon]

But it's really not that simple because the government knows a cash cow when it sees it. See, they don't really want everyone to quit. They want to push down the usage, but keep a core group puffing away that are willing to pay the ridiculous taxes.

You saw the packaging they make cigarette packets carry here, yeah?

 

[bhsup]

Yeah. So?

 

[Arwon]

Doesn't really smack of a devotion to revenue raising. Besides which, the quantity of revenue would be pretty trivial for a national government which collects income and sales tax. A few billion is a rounding error.

 

[Kyriakos]

Doesn't really smack of a devotion to revenue raising. Besides which, the quantity of revenue would be pretty trivial for a national government which collects income and sales tax.

Well, a pack of cigarettes can cost easily as much as any trivial food stuff one buys on the same day. And if one smokes two packets... the tax is very considerable.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Unless, of course, like some friendly folks whose names shall remain unnamed, but are generally all over the country, you buy a carton of cigarettes for a price that is far, far lesser than you'd get them at conventional stores.

But then again, contraband doesn't fund pensions, as a fairly misguided program aiming to make people stop smuggling says!

 

[Kyriakos]

^Surely you don't mean not-legal cigarettes? We both know there is no such trade in our region

 

[Farm Boy]

What he said. Actually, no need to go that far into the past. Just the War on Drugs.

It sure isn't the fairest solution, but it's the most practical solution. People have a bit more incentives to stop killing themselves, governments gets a cash injection for the next few decades to build highways and stuff, and crime rates don't spike because the country is suddenly overrun with smugglers and gangsters. In civilised countries with universal healthcare, there's the added bonus of free help for addicts who want to quit smoking.

Oh, I don't know that I called you a fanatic. I called you a prohibitionist. Which you are being, despite your insistence that merely sin taxing a product out of reach isn't a form of prohibition.

Taxing the crap out of smokes isn't actually an incentive to quit, btw, it's a punishment for continuing. And what's the rationale? To encourage/force a solution which is people living more like you think they should for their own good. Which, if you don't want to be lumped in with the religious right on telling people how they need to live because of this moral code that you have, well, maybe you shouldn't use their exact same logic and arguments. Don't take it for a tremendous insult, it isn't much of one really. Leftists seem like they're often just as busy as the bible bangers when it comes to being cocksure that the government is a fantastic tool to force people to act more like "we think they should" during their personal time.

 

[gay_Aleks]

^Surely you don't mean not-legal cigarettes? We both know there is no such trade in our region

Why, you mean that your cousin that has a brother in the Netherlands who gets really cheap cigarettes from a guy named Chad doesn't exist?

 

[cybrxkhan]

Good for you to discover it only now, bookstores here are swarmed by it for at least five years.

I've always been vaguely aware of it, but I never knew it actually had a name and had a legit term. Interesting to see it as the Scandinavia counterpart to traditional American noir.

 

[Kyriakos]

Why, you mean that your cousin that has a brother in the Netherlands who gets really cheap cigarettes from a guy named Chad doesn't exist?

Those aren't to be sold, though. They are a gift from the lowlands. Doesn't mean anything that the packets are stored for protection inside lego sets.

(yeah, i know lego are based in Denmark, but the NL seems to be mostly known for cannabis (and Svartepete/spelling of it), and it would not work with that ).

 

[gay_Aleks]

Nah. People here don't care about weed/cannabis. They prefer normal cigarettes. I was really using the Netherlands as an example and totally not as a pretext to have a shot at one poster inhabiting that country.

 

[Angst]

If it is so bad that it deserves a sin tax slapped on it, just ban it outright. Either tax it like everything else or ban it. It's that simple. But it's really not that simple because the government knows a cash cow when it sees it. See, they don't really want everyone to quit. They want to push down the usage, but keep a core group puffing away that are willing to pay the ridiculous taxes. God Bless Missouri and its citizens that have repeatedly shot down attempts to raise the cigarette sin tax. I love you guys!

Fwiw the tax money from unhealthy foodstuffs is used for social services as well as programs that informs people about unhealthy foodstuffs or incentivises people to buy otherwise. The politics of the cash cow sounds bad on paper, but it's not like the money is used to buy golden palaces for our glorious benevolent leader. It's returned in the form of services. I mean, it's more making the best of a bad situation than anything else. Works much better than outright banning the stuff.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Doesn't really smack of a devotion to revenue raising. Besides which, the quantity of revenue would be pretty trivial for a national government which collects income and sales tax. A few billion is a rounding error.

In Germany a few years ago our minister of health openly stated that they only raised cigarette taxes in small steps because otherwise there would be a hole in their budget.

Sin taxes are IMO a very comfortable way to close budget gaps. And in accumulation I think they can be one important source. Keep in mind that often a national budget will be strained on all borders and so even relatively small amounts (a few billion here and there) can be important.

But of course, that is not the ONLY reason EVERY TIME. EVERYWHERE. But it is one. And people who smoke rightfully feel like cows to be milked IMO, because from their perspective, that is exactly what is happening, everywhere.

I stand by my position. I don't care what issues the govt has if they ban it.

Say what... Did you just outright state that you don't care for the reasons others have and insist on your reasons being the only good reasons? But I appreciate your honesty

 

[bhsup]

That is pretty much exactly what I did, yes, and I stand by that.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Okay... but standing by it doesn't make it better. Arguably just worse

 

[bhsup]

Look, I don't care how much it benefits the government as that does not in any way make sin taxes legitimate. Just because it helps fund stuff doesn't mean it is right. Poll taxes funded stuff too...

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I think it is also about saving people's life / improving them by encouraging them to quit smoking and/or never start.
And what are you doing?! I thought you stand by it.