SCENARIO: Age of Imperialism; 1895-1924, Deluxe Version

[Bogatyr]

Just don't do anything to Kerkyra! I'm originally from there, and I think this is the only Civ scenario I've played in which it appears!

 

[JTomoyasu]

Um, did anyone ever find a way to clean pollution from impassable mountains? If not then I might have to crack down on pop growth.

 

[Vuldacon]

JTomoyasu... No, there is no way to clean Impassable Terrain. Best to play understanding that Factor so if you can limit population, etc to pervent pollution... that is the way

 

[El Justo]

good news i started the first beta test the other night as the dutch. i ran a few turns in debug mode but it took a long time for the turns to progress (lots of moving units, anims etc). so i flipped debug off and it runs awesome turn times are real slick, very much like the previous versions. so this is really, really appealing, for me at least, especially since i added in those 20+ cities. got to about 1897 last night and will continue to move forward while taking notes for possible fixes. one area i have not hit yet though is the civp file, mostly for the barb units. that work will be exhausting and i don't want to spend time on it quite yet. perhaps later or i may even farm it out like before (some sections of the civp were written by Klyden and another dude). so we'll see. it's gameplay that i'm most concerned with for now.

 

[Ranger54]

That is good news! I was concerned about how much the additional cites would impact turn times as well. Your decision to concentrate on the game play at this point is the way to go, the civp can wait some.

 

[I_batman]

good news i started the first beta test the other night as the dutch. i ran a few turns in debug mode but it took a long time for the turns to progress (lots of moving units, anims etc). so i flipped debug off and it runs awesome turn times are real slick, very much like the previous versions. so this is really, really appealing, for me at least, especially since i added in those 20+ cities. got to about 1897 last night and will continue to move forward while taking notes for possible fixes. one area i have not hit yet though is the civp file, mostly for the barb units. that work will be exhausting and i don't want to spend time on it quite yet. perhaps later or i may even farm it out like before (some sections of the civp were written by Klyden and another dude). so we'll see. it's gameplay that i'm most concerned with for now.

Hey man. Just checking in after a long hiatus.

You back at modding?
Thought you had packed it in.

 

[Sasebo]

That's fine el Justo. I wanted to try a China game under the previous versions anyway.

Well I've gotten farther then my previous attempts at China. It feels like a backwards Civ, what with being behind the AI in tech and not being able to build much. Not even having judicial systems seems a bit unfair though. On the plus side that means you don't have a lot to build besides troops!

I had some intereting early wars. Snitched Guam from Spain when they left it ungaurded, and Portugal declared war on me when I refused to pay them tribute. I wasn't able to take macau at that point though, too strong. Went and crushed Tibet in a long, grueling campaign, and found out China has war weariness issues. Got one corps out of that and put an Imperial Rifleman in there, which might have been a mistake but he makes a nice artilery guard. Finally went after macau and got TWO corps out of that one, which formed two Boxer Armies. Germans demanded Tribute so I kicked them out of the Pacific, then the whole world seemed to blow up, or large parts of it.

There were a few other smal wars; France-Lowlands(they took most of the Congo), Spain-Portugal(sitzkrieg), and Germany/Austria -Scandanavia. Scandanavia lost two home cities and iceland to Germany, and narvik to Austria, and then things just went out of control; Austria had gotten a tech lead, and signed up half the world against Russia and later Spain. Russia is holding out so far, but I am beginning to see why other people have seen them get drubbed in a lot of games.

This naturally opened up opportunities for me, and I decided to have my showdown with Britain now while they are distracted with Russia and a couple smal nations. I took Shanghai, and and going for Hong Kong next.

I really need those generic destroyers and better artillery! The destroyers are almost here though, huzzah! I have almost 30 smal naval units now, and they are really decrepit but they do just enough.

 

[eddiewillers]

Yesterday I DLed the v.4, the latest available, and I am thrilled and can't revere and thank mighty El Justo enough. so, here thanks!

I am playing Japan, it's 1900s, I have been focusing on building up my industrial base at home and the three electronics wonders, yielding more than 200 shields in Tokyo with not much micromanagement.

The point is that I haven't been shipping many flag units back except from Formosa. Now I've built a huge transport/convoy fleet in 2 turns and wanted to try it by cleaning up all those flags in Korea, and that's where I found the bug or intentional strategic feature:
I can return units from Hamhung only directly to the tile right North of Pusan. Not Busan itself but for some reason the tile right above it. It doesn't work for flags generated in Busan or Seoul, just Hamhung to the tile north of Busan. Maybe a vortex to Tokyo?

Sorry if this has come up before.

In any case, this is a fantastic game.

Regarding the South America question I've been reading I should refrain from further industrializing ABC and Uruguay: While at the turn of the century Argentina was very promising the fact remains that those were recently decolonized countries. The standard of living in Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, Montevideo and Rosario was industrialized to a central European level, but the "colonies" were other parts of those same countries (the provinces), so South America would have to be an entirely different scenario (which I should be happy to contribute, btw).
In the AoI context, the conflict in all of Latin America was between American and British, and to some extent Continental European economic interests as informal colonies. There's no way to represent that in the game unless enabling a way for SA countries to build and SELL flag units to industrialized nations, which is what happened in reality. Military interventions would be Venezuela (New Grenada) with the Lowlands because of foreign debt, and Mexico with the United States (interesting to note, Mexico backed by Germany and actual German troops on the Mexican border).

This is a great game. I don't know however whether to exploit this bug or not with my current Japan game or start another as another country.

Thanks El Justo!

 

[ChaosArbiter]

I am playing Japan, it's 1900s, I have been focusing on building up my industrial base at home and the three electronics wonders, yielding more than 200 shields in Tokyo with not much micromanagement.

The point is that I haven't been shipping many flag units back except from Formosa. Now I've built a huge transport/convoy fleet in 2 turns and wanted to try it by cleaning up all those flags in Korea, and that's where I found the bug or intentional strategic feature:
I can return units from Hamhung only directly to the tile right North of Pusan. Not Busan itself but for some reason the tile right above it. It doesn't work for flags generated in Busan or Seoul, just Hamhung to the tile north of Busan. Maybe a vortex to Tokyo?

Sorry if this has come up before.

By "Flag" you mean the Raw Material units (RMs)? They can only be sent to Victory Point Locations, which are in various locations, but the Capital city of the major powers always has one. The Japanese do have a (two?) VP Location(s) in Korea, so you don't have to ship them back to the mainland.



Heh, I started a new game a few days ago (Austria-Hungary), it's ... 1899, I think. Russia got both the Industrialization Wonders, and Germany got both the Wright Flyer and the Electron, somehow. Although I've gotten everything else, so it's not that big a deal. Been at peace with Europe, mostly, although I have a bit of a phony war with Japan ATM - they wanted 43 gold, I told them no, they declared. About 10 turns later they sent three Infantry to attack me, triggering the Alliance; I lost one Horse Artillery (player stupidity) and one A-H Cavalry killing them off.

Something similar happened with the US, as well - just without the "phony" part. They sent the better part of their Atlantic fleet after me, apparently - including the Maine. I had not built any new ships. I got several Veterans, but no Elites Later on, I rebuilt a little (as in, 3 Monarch BB-class ships), and they were all sunk by Indiana-Class BBs. Got the second Pre-Dread BB ships (Habsburg, I think ...) ... and Germany attacked the British. Four dead British Transports later (they had no military vessels in the Mediterranean), and I got my Elite Then the Americans came with at least 6 Indianas and sank two of my Battleships So I made peace with them (for 130-odd Gold - they'd originally wanted 100). The Germans don't appear to have lost any territory to the British, nor gained any.

Oh, and the French were beating up on the Lowlands in Africa.

 

[El Justo]

Hey man. Just checking in after a long hiatus.

You back at modding?
Thought you had packed it in.

hey! look who it is good to see you're alive old buddy. still at it although at a fraction of the pace i used to work at. too bad about your habs. and we love roy halladay. a pure beast

 

[ChaosArbiter]

wat is this i dont even Why do I keep losing my navy Great Britain, stop building battleships! You're losing Canada to the Americans, stop killing my dudes and let me commerce raid and bombard Malta in peace! You're not supposed to be competent!

 

[Nimitz96]

There's no way to represent that in the game unless enabling a way for SA countries to build and SELL flag units to industrialized nations, which is what happened in reality.

wouldnt the AI Automatically "capture" them

 

[creamcheese]

Hey El Justo! Since it sounds like you are getting close to a new release, I remembered a few oddities and things that might warrant fixing/improvement:

-The German 10.5cm howitzer98 (howitzers I) (my favorite artillery) does not upgrade to the more advanced 10.5cm Howitzer but instead to a different caliber gun. Seems like it would make more sense the other way around. Is there some reason for this I am not thinking of?

-Artillery in general seems to be under powered. It is cheaper than land units and has low ROF. Maybe increasing cost 50% and firepower 50% (or 100%) would make me need less than 30-40 artillery to red line a European city , it seems a bit silly to have massive stacks of artillery and maybe 10 infantry on the attack, when in reality artillery is more expensive and rarer than troops. The AI never attacks with it anyway, so this is just a clutter reducing improvement, and a smaller number of more powerful units makes for faster turns as well (moving and firing 40 arty is a pain).

-Cavalry and armoured cars always seemed not really worth building, maybe some kind of improvements? If I (Germans as example) have a 10/10/2 infantry unit and a 12/6/3 cavalry with 2 less hp and much higher cost the Infantry is much better, being able to move with my good artillery, and having good defense. 3 move and blitz is nice, but the HP loss makes them not worth the cost (also, cannot go in Corps units). With a higher defense and maybe 1 more hp I might use them as they were intended, as scouts and to harass lone units, but as it is I never bother. Armoured cars have radar, but again are weak and not worth it, and do not even have the nice attack value that cav has.

-Naval aircraft are really bad, and carriers are too slow. Move 6 would be nice, I know naval airpower was only in its' infancy, but the carriers should at least be able to keep up with the fleet! The naval planes should be weaker and such, but the lack of hitpoints makes them not weak, but worthless, against the late game land based fighters.

-The lack of Amphibious units hurt not just the human, who can compensate, but the AI as well. 1 Marine every 20 turns (only after getting an Elite naval unit!) is a very small amount. The two tile islands make up for this somewhat, but then you get the situation where one AI lands troops, doesn't take the city, and leaves the troops of that spot! Then they make peace with the civ they landed on, sign an ROP and are too stupid to pick the troops up again . Now you are back to requiring marines and dont have any to spare. Perhaps a late game marine unit buildable anywhere and fairly weak?

Sorry for the long post, and I really do love this mod more than anything , just some constructive criticism.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

-Artillery in general seems to be under powered. It is cheaper than land units and has low ROF. Maybe increasing cost 50% and firepower 50% (or 100%) would make me need less than 30-40 artillery to red line a European city , it seems a bit silly to have massive stacks of artillery and maybe 10 infantry on the attack, when in reality artillery is more expensive and rarer than troops. The AI never attacks with it anyway, so this is just a clutter reducing improvement, and a smaller number of more powerful units makes for faster turns as well (moving and firing 40 arty is a pain).

I find Artillery to be quite effective, particularly if you get any 12+ Bombard with 3 RoF. True it takes a while to pound through city defenders, but that's due to the huge defense and large number of defenders. But any units out in the open get mashed horribly with second-gen guns, and ships only last long if they have more HP.

-Cavalry and armoured cars always seemed not really worth building, maybe some kind of improvements? If I (Germans as example) have a 10/10/2 infantry unit and a 12/6/3 cavalry with 2 less hp and much higher cost the Infantry is much better, being able to move with my good artillery, and having good defense. 3 move and blitz is nice, but the HP loss makes them not worth the cost (also, cannot go in Corps units). With a higher defense and maybe 1 more hp I might use them as they were intended, as scouts and to harass lone units, but as it is I never bother. Armoured cars have radar, but again are weak and not worth it, and do not even have the nice attack value that cav has.

Don't use Cavalry against fortified positions? I don't recall very many successful cavalry charges in WWI, after all .... The Blitz is much more useful if you're on the defensive (IE, taking out units in your territory) - and I find you using the German Cavalry quite funny, as they have the second-best cavalry in the game, after the Russian Mounted Infantry. Personally, I find cavalry quite useful for dealing with non-fortified units, and in the ultra-early game (before MG defenders are common) they are still quite useful attacking cities. As for Armoured Cars - they're recon vehicles, if you want armour to attack with you build Tanks.

-Naval aircraft are really bad, and carriers are too slow. Move 6 would be nice, I know naval airpower was only in its' infancy, but the carriers should at least be able to keep up with the fleet! The naval planes should be weaker and such, but the lack of hitpoints makes them not weak, but worthless, against the late game land based fighters.

Two issues, somewhat related. First off, you should *not* be using Naval aircraft against Land-based aircraft, you should be using them against Naval units. IIRC, the HP values for aircraft are based on the Squadron size - since land-based squadrons could be bigger, they have more HP. For Carrier speed - the HMS Hermes had a speed of 25 Knots, the Argus 20.75. The St. Vincent (an older ship) had a speed of 21 Knots, the Revenge Class the same. The Argus is the only ship with a Movement of 5. Note that the Hermes was a converted Cruiser, and that Seaplane Tenders were usually something along the lines of the Ark Royal - which had a speed of *11* Knots.

 

[creamcheese]

I find Artillery to be quite effective, particularly if you get any 12+ Bombard with 3 RoF. True it takes a while to pound through city defenders, but that's due to the huge defense and large number of defenders. But any units out in the open get mashed horribly with second-gen guns, and ships only last long if they have more HP.


Don't use Cavalry against fortified positions? I don't recall very many successful cavalry charges in WWI, after all .... The Blitz is much more useful if you're on the defensive (IE, taking out units in your territory) - and I find you using the German Cavalry quite funny, as they have the second-best cavalry in the game, after the Russian Mounted Infantry. Personally, I find cavalry quite useful for dealing with non-fortified units, and in the ultra-early game (before MG defenders are common) they are still quite useful attacking cities. As for Armoured Cars - they're recon vehicles, if you want armour to attack with you build Tanks.


Two issues, somewhat related. First off, you should *not* be using Naval aircraft against Land-based aircraft, you should be using them against Naval units. IIRC, the HP values for aircraft are based on the Squadron size - since land-based squadrons could be bigger, they have more HP. For Carrier speed - the HMS Hermes had a speed of 25 Knots, the Argus 20.75. The St. Vincent (an older ship) had a speed of 21 Knots, the Revenge Class the same. The Argus is the only ship with a Movement of 5. Note that the Hermes was a converted Cruiser, and that Seaplane Tenders were usually something along the lines of the Ark Royal - which had a speed of *11* Knots.

-Artillery: I am not saying that they don't get more effective and that they cannot be used at all, just that it would be nice to have smaller stacks. More cost + more effectiveness with the same overall benefit. It's just a management issue.

-Cavalry: I never build them let alone attack cities with them. It's not that they don't have their uses, just they for what they do they are too expensive. Sure, using blitz to pick off three units I just redlined is excellent for defense, but they cost too much to be worth building for the purpose.

-Carriers: Historical realities are not really what I am concerned about, gameplay is. This is really only a side issue anyway, seeing as they are very late game units. Also, using your carriers to protect your fleet as you approach an enemies shores is pretty much what they are for, the Oceans in AoI are too small to disregard the impact of land based airpower. Well it may be based on squadron size, it doesn't work all that well as a game mechanic, you could get away with it if the stats of the planes were the same; the naval versions would still be weaker (as they should be) but not useless.

 

[Sasebo]

You are comparing the German Infantry/Cavalry situation, which is not ideal since German Infantry are right at the top of the food chain. Compare that with say China, where the inferior light cavalry is a much better deal then their starting rifleman, even with one less HP. Most nations fall somewhere between these extremes, and you only really need a relative handful (1 or 2 dozen, tops) of cavalry to do what they are good for; wiping out redlined units.

Speaking of the Cavalry though, I do recall thinking that the 775 shield cost for the Russian Cossacks has to be a mistake somehow, is there a reason why they are so much more expensive El Justo?

BTW, that China game just gets more interesting, I've never seen A-H lead the world around by the nose like this before. They got to whatever tech allows military alliances first, and have been cheerfully signing up everyone and their mother against Russia, Scandanavia, and now Spain. They even managed to take a Spanish Colony in NW Africa, which is a new one in my experience. The Boers took Rio Mundi after being signed up to the Cause, and Central America has taken a Phillipine city as well. Russia has only lost one city so far, to France when they made their initial attacks. I took Hong Kong and all their other cities in SE Asia off of Britain and then made peace. The war weariness was getting pretty bad. I can't break the right of passage agreements I have with Siam and France, so my options at this point are to go after Russia, Japan, or maybe Spain? Central America? Have to think about the next move, I would prefer something that won't be heavily corrupted because I can't build judicial systems.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

-Artillery: I am not saying that they don't get more effective and that they cannot be used at all, just that it would be nice to have smaller stacks. More cost + more effectiveness with the same overall benefit. It's just a management issue.

:shrug: I don't think there are too many ... different strokes, I guess.

-Cavalry: I never build them let alone attack cities with them. It's not that they don't have their uses, just they for what they do they are too expensive. Sure, using blitz to pick off three units I just redlined is excellent for defense, but they cost too much to be worth building for the purpose.

Agreeing with Sasebo here (also why I brought up the Germans earlier):
Germany has 10/10/2 (6) Infantry and 12/6/3 (4) Cavalry for 270 and 450.
Austria-Hungary has a 8/8 and a 6/9 (5 for both) for 360 and a 10/6 (4) for 450. Note that A-H does not get a Colonial Cavalry unit.
Italy has an 8/7 (5) for 360 and a 10/6 (4) for 540.
China has a 5/7 and a 7/5 (4) for 400 and a 10/6 (3) for 450.
Russia has a 7/8 (5) for 340 and a 11/6 (3) for 775 (this is the only one that's really overpriced, and otherwise the AI spams them like mad).
Japan has a 9/9 (5) for 360 and a 11/6 (4) for 450.
The Ottomans have a 7/7 (4) for 360 and a 11/6 (3) for 540.

If you're playing as the Germans, British, French, or Americans, cavalry is probably not going to be worth it comparatively, since their Infantry are so bloody cheap and powerful. Other civs, not so much.

-Carriers: Historical realities are not really what I am concerned about, gameplay is. This is really only a side issue anyway, seeing as they are very late game units. Also, using your carriers to protect your fleet as you approach an enemies shores is pretty much what they are for, the Oceans in AoI are too small to disregard the impact of land based airpower.

I'll admit I've never gotten to the last age when naval aviation opens up, but the only times I could see that really happening would be invading either the Americas or Europe/Asia (as the US), and there are ways around it either way. Not to mention that you're only going to be in range of enemy aircraft for a couple turns, anyway - unless you're talking about other nations' naval aircraft, in which case my point that you should be using CLV Fighters to attack other CLV Planes stands.

Edit:

I can't break the right of passage agreements I have with Siam and France, so my options at this point are to go after Russia, Japan, or maybe Spain? Central America? Have to think about the next move, I would prefer something that won't be heavily corrupted because I can't build judicial systems.

If it's not going to be too long, I'd say wait out the RoP with France and then take their colonies - that would also give you time to rearm and build some more units. If you'd prefer not to wait, going after some of the nearby Spanish colonies is probably your easiest target, but going after Japan would probably help you the most (if done successfully) - you do want Victory Point locations, after all. I would hit Manchuria and their non-mainland islands (Taipei and the Ryukyus), as there will probably be ... a lot ... of troops on the mainland.

 

[El Justo]

wow, you guys have been busy thanks for the remarks. i'll try and address the main points.

i could look into the 10.5cm arty thing. makes sense, no doubt. don't have the lineage in front of me atm but the logic behind it not upgrading like that is probably the every other generation thing that we use for most upgrade chains.

oh, i certainly don't want to boost the arty numbers any. this is all well balanced imo despite the human player needing stacks of them to bust down a city. unreasonable? perhaps, at least from an historical pov. however, the gameplay is ok imho and i don't want to delve into changing key pieces of the gameplay. it's the old adage if it ain't broke.... the only option i would consider (which i really don't want to tbh) would be to ramp up the costs for the arty pieces, to sort of make it even more difficult to take cities. keep in mind that siege warfare ruled the day back then (with two relatively evenly matched opponents). so needing lots of guns and the proverbial 3:1 ratio for attacking is very accurate and had been our guide.

cav and armored cars are ok too. sure they're lacking in some areas but cavalry charges were on the way out at this point. recon, raiding, mop up duties were basically their mo at this point. shock troops they were not. armored cars were really unreliable, or combustion engines were really unreliable at this stage. and this is reflected in the stats. so like Chaos Arbiter pointed out, it's historical realities. and Sasebo's remarks about the german infantry analogy with it being at the top is valid. put the crappy infantry units in there and see how valuable some cav units may be. it's two-fold there were no corps of cavalry at this time. so this is why they're not allowed in army units.

re carriers and naval aircraft - they were really crappy too. and this is reflected. think of it in these terms - there were no true ocean going carriers until the 30s. so this is the reason why they're so slow. i'll even say that i was originally hesitant to even put carriers into the game during the last revisions. but i went with them just to add another wrinkle. now, in sea and coast tiles, these units could be helpful. but in now way were these ships part of the fleet, or able to keep up with them. they were lucky to do 10, 12, 15 knots, way under avg fleet speeds. the converted hulls did better. but for the most part, naval aviation at the beginning was based on seaplane tenders, not fleet ships.

i gave thought over the years to opening up amphib capabilities to more units but decided against it mainly b/c it would render naval infantry/marine units useless. amphib landings can be dicey in AoI, no doubt. but true amphibious landings did not occur until ww2 (for the most part). so ths is reflected in the stats and the lack of capability (for infantry units, that is). remember that many naval infantry and army infantry would load onto row boats and paddle to shore the USMC rowed ashore in the philippine war. no LSTs or anything and minimal support fire (usually cruisers or gun boats). so considering this, i think the amphib details are accurate. for a ww2 era, much different.

thanks for the thoughtful remarks!

 

[ChaosArbiter]

i could look into the 10.5cm arty thing. makes sense, no doubt. don't have the lineage in front of me atm but the logic behind it not upgrading like that is probably the every other generation thing that we use for most upgrade chains.

Just off the top of my head, the current German Howitzer chain goes Light Field Howitzer 10.5cm (98) -> 12cm Krupp -> 15cm Krupp. Also, The Great War allows the construction of the 10.5cm (09) Howitzer.

 

[Bengal Tiger]

Regarding artillery pieces, I personally think it makes a bit more sense to up the cost and the power, just so you don't have to move around a stack of 50 cheap artilleries if you could boost the power and the price to make 20 strong artilleries do the same job.

Cavalry seems to do its job well, in my opinion. I use it in the first half of the game, mainly in Africa, where I obliterate the redlined units from my artillery barrage, while infantry is good in close quarters, like Europe.

Maybe the spawn time for naval infantry could be reduced to 10 or even 5, to encourage the AI to use them more.

On a completely unrelated note, if I were to delete all the spam city wonders, would it affect the game, now that there is a no-raze patch? I decided to start a new game as the lowlands as a kind of final farewell. Anyway, I had forgotten you need to spend 5-10 minutes clicking through the
x is building x wonder. I just want to know if I can get rid of them to make future new games start sooner.