School not getting results? Fire everybody!

That's not what I've heard elsewhere. The "powers that be" in your region must be smarter than the usual.
Not in a place like Central Falls. I guess I should have rephrased myself as said "powers that be in high needs areas". Higher "value added" scores keep districts hitting the AYPs and out of trouble with government regulators.


Government policy, just like any private school policy, determines the salary of teachers. A private school in the same situation might decide that it is paying too much for teachers, and negotiate their wages downwards. They may even put up with strikes. Or they may not, and decide to settle for higher wages. The government goes through the exact same process in negotiations with its staff. Just because it's the government doing the wage negotiation doesn't mean it's not just as determined by supply and demand as anything else...
Totally agree. A public school administrator, a charter and a private school guy all face the exact same circumstances when hiring. They draw from basically the same labor pool (a private school has a slightly larger one), have basically the same regulations, etc. Who is actually signing the checks just doesn't matter that much. The supply and demand aren't radically changing.

The government never closes. My point is that wages in private firms are very firmly bound to market rules (because it affects the rate of profit of the company), while in the government they are not.

You said that the government faces pressure to increase the quality of the service, which is true. But the pressure is much more dilluted to cut costs. Financially, the publis schools are not competing with private schools. They don't compare their profit to the competition, they're not scared investors will find a more attractive destination for their money.

Could you people please give up your stubburness for a short while and just admit the obvious - that wage determination is different in the private and public sectors??
Like Dachs said, government schools close.

You are right in that the circumstances are slightly different because we are dealing with competing non-profit providers (the for-profit K12 market has been pretty much a failure right now) instead of profit-seeking firms...but they do compete! For investors (grant money...the Gates Foundation can make up nearly the entire budget for a charter school), for students (i.e, MONEY), for political capital, everything.

Every administrator is conscious of this fact. There are other firms (schools) offering a similar service in your area...and if you suck, you're going to lose your kids, and thus, your job.

American teaching isn't like a DMV government job...where you have a monopoly on an essential service.
 
Wild stab in the air here, your wife is a teacher at Cheyenne, Mohave, or Canyon Springs?

Nah, McMillan Elementary. Lots of apartments with a high transient population. She got a student added from Hawaii 2 months before the tests last year who couldn't even speak English and it was her fault that he failed the test.

I do not like how the system in place makes no allowance for schools where students filter in and out at a high rate. What you couldn't teach him English in 2 months? You fail.

She got a student mid year this year (who has since moved again) who lived with all his belongings (other than clothes) in his backpack. We gave him a new toothbrush and some books and he was so excited for the toothbrush because he had never owned his own.

Yet somehow its my wife who fails the students when she does all she can in a very limited system.
 
In this particular case 78k seems like an inflated wage, seeing as how it is much higher than the median income in the area.

Okay! As your goodwill ambassador from Rhode Island, I made a map for everybody! I had to draw in a couple of Massachusetts municipalities to get a better picture, yeah I know I suck at Paint.

This is Rhode Island and five Massachusetts towns color-coded by per capita income sourced from Wikipedia.

86169499.png


See those two red spots? The large one is North Providence, the small one is Central Falls. Central Falls has a per-capita income of $10,825, North Providence's is $13,489. See that green blob right north of them? That's Lincoln, with a per-capita income of $26,779.

Central Falls, that little red square, is 1.29 square miles. That's 3.34 square kilometers. That's freaking tiny, even by Rhode Island (1454 mi2 or 4002 km2) standards. This town is super tiny.

If you want to discuss the average income of the area, you simply can't leave out the surrounding towns, because that's where most of these teachers probably live, and that's where these teachers could also find jobs teaching students with a hell of a lot less problems than the Central Falls students. I don't care whether 78k is too much or not enough or whatever. The point is that these teachers teach in a nasty little black hole of poverty, and that very close by you can find places that aren't nearly as crappy.

EDIT: Kinda crossposted with Gilder. Also the disparity between private and public schools in this area, at least in my experience, is in the other direction, in that private school teachers generally make less than public school teachers. Presumably because it sucks way less to teach rich brats than hood rats.
 
Yes, but that is still a damn high salary when you compare it to the median. Mind you I am all for paying teachers well, but damn thats even when compared to the nearby area of higher income its ? times the median income. Thats excessive imo. And as an individual 3.55 times more than the household income in Central Falls.

median household - According to government data, the average salary for jobs in Central Falls, Rhode Island is $21,199, and the median income of households in Central Falls was $22,628.



EDIT for the same teacher to move to Vegas and make a comparable amount when factoring in the CoL would be 78k in Central Falls - 82k in Las Vegas. I mean damn.
 
My numbers were PER CAPITA income. You gotta get median numbers if you wanna compare median incomes.
 
Nah, McMillan Elementary. Lots of apartments with a high transient population. She got a student added from Hawaii 2 months before the tests last year who couldn't even speak English and it was her fault that he failed the test.

I do not like how the system in place makes no allowance for schools where students filter in and out at a high rate. What you couldn't teach him English in 2 months? You fail.

She got a student mid year this year (who has since moved again) who lived with all his belongings (other than clothes) in his backpack. We gave him a new toothbrush and some books and he was so excited for the toothbrush because he had never owned his own.

Yet somehow its my wife who fails the students when she does all she can in a very limited system.

Oh I see what you mean, not just straight up a bad area though.

I used to work at the Joe's crab shack around the corner there :D
 
No its not a bad area, if you move away from her school's zone. That Zone is so much worse than the surrounding area.

Haven't been to the Crab Shack in ages. :)
 
Per capita income is basically total income divided by total people. Now, only about 50% of the population will actually be employed at any one time. The other 50% are either too old, too young, or too busy caring for the old or the young to be looking for jobs. And then there's the 5%-10% or so that are actively looking for a job but can't find one. Now, the current recession obviously skews things - US unemployment is 10%, up from 3-4% pre-recession levels. Therefore, I'm going to estimate based on my prior knowledge about the US economy, to try to present a fairer view of teacher salaries compared to the average. 50% total employment rate is my rule of thumb in estimates like these; it's probably more like 40% now, given the number of unemployed, and the number of people who have simply stopped looking for jobs, but I'll continue using 50% in fairness. I'm also going to use rounder numbers, partly because it's easier to calculate, and partly because it's ridiculous to give these numbers to such a high degree of accuracy...

So, Total income / Total population in that nice green neighbour is around $25k. But the number of employed people is much less than the total population -- half, in fact. So Total income / Total number of people who actually have jobs is more like $50k. If the average teacher is around $75k, that means that an employed teacher is earning about 50% more than your Average Joe Worker. Personally, I can't say that they don't deserve that premium, for having to work in such a poor neighbourhood.

Now, to put it into a global context, that doesn't seem particularly high -- the average classroom teacher salary in the UK in 2006 is around £32k (or £34k if you include head teachers, special skills teachers, etc) -- that works out at just over $65k in 2006 exchange rates, and just over $70k with inflation at an average 3% RPI (RPI over that period was actually more like 4-5%, but I've used 3% as a low estimate). Nowadays, of course, the exchange rate between the USD and GBP has crashed, so £32k is more like $50k... So it is very difficult to compare pre-crisis and post-crisis salary levels. But average salary for employed people in the UK is £26k. And that's in 2009 pounds; adjust for inflation and that's £24k in 2006 pounds. So employed teachers in the UK earn about 33% more than the average employed worker in the UK. The employed teachers in that deeply deprived region of Rhode Island earned about 50% more than the average employed worker in the neighbouring region. Again, I can't say that the extra 17% isn't deserved, for having to work in much more difficult conditions.


--
On a more general note, the problem we're facing is that different measures of income and wealth are more useful in different situations. For example, Per Capita income is useful measure of the productivity of a region -- that is, how much stuff is a region producing, per person in that region? There are other productivity measures that focus on worker productivity, rather than regional productivity, too, which may be more instructive, depending on what you're looking at. And, as explained above, it falls short of being useful when determining whether someone is overpaid or underpaid.

Median household income is a good measure of how deprived an area is. But, again, what about people who are wealthy (i.e. they have a lot of stuff), but aren't earning much? For example, my parents have been working all their lives, and are now retired in a nice, big 4 bed house with 42" plasma TV, Satellite with all the channels, giant fridge freezer, well equipped kitchen, etc etc. They have a lot of stuff, but they live off a relatively small pension -- they are wealthy, even though they don't have a particularly large income.

So what if you wanted to compare your salary with the "average"? Well, in that case, you have to contol some of the variables. Above, I have controlled for employed vs non-employed -- it's fairly useless to include 3 year old toddlers in your comparison! So we remove them. Integral, being the most awesome chap that he is, has included a much more comprehensive (but unfortunately, much less calculable) list of control variables: "regress wage vs poverty (% of students on free & reduced price lunch), ESL %, and other controls; see what the conditional mean wage is, compare to the Central Falls wage, and make your inference."

Personally, I think the estimates I've used above are a decent enough compromise between accuracy and tractability to make a judgement. It's just a matter of how much effort you want to put into it ;)
 
Why are teachers being blamed for what the students do? They only have them for an hour a day, the rest is up to them. Crucifying the teachers because the students aren't motivated and the parents want to blame everyone but themselves isn't fair.

Although that union is insane.
 
Why are teachers being blamed for what the students do? They only have them for an hour a day, the rest is up to them. Crucifying the teachers because the students aren't motivated and the parents want to blame everyone but themselves isn't fair.

Although that union is insane.

That's the thing. Teachers matter, but they are far from the only variable in the equation. Administrators, voters, parents, and the students themselves all have at least as much effect as the teachers do.
 
Given the poor performance, shouldn't the superintendant have resigned in order for the school district to replace him with a more competent leader?
 
Per capita income is basically total income divided by total people. Now, only about 50% of the population will actually be employed at any one time. The other 50% are either too old, too young, or too busy caring for the old or the young to be looking for jobs. And then there's the 5%-10% or so that are actively looking for a job but can't find one. Now, the current recession obviously skews things - US unemployment is 10%, up from 3-4% pre-recession levels. Therefore, I'm going to estimate based on my prior knowledge about the US economy, to try to present a fairer view of teacher salaries compared to the average. 50% total employment rate is my rule of thumb in estimates like these; it's probably more like 40% now, given the number of unemployed, and the number of people who have simply stopped looking for jobs, but I'll continue using 50% in fairness. I'm also going to use rounder numbers, partly because it's easier to calculate, and partly because it's ridiculous to give these numbers to such a high degree of accuracy...

So, Total income / Total population in that nice green neighbour is around $25k. But the number of employed people is much less than the total population -- half, in fact. So Total income / Total number of people who actually have jobs is more like $50k. If the average teacher is around $75k, that means that an employed teacher is earning about 50% more than your Average Joe Worker. Personally, I can't say that they don't deserve that premium, for having to work in such a poor neighbourhood.

Now, to put it into a global context, that doesn't seem particularly high -- the average classroom teacher salary in the UK in 2006 is around £32k (or £34k if you include head teachers, special skills teachers, etc) -- that works out at just over $65k in 2006 exchange rates, and just over $70k with inflation at an average 3% RPI (RPI over that period was actually more like 4-5%, but I've used 3% as a low estimate). Nowadays, of course, the exchange rate between the USD and GBP has crashed, so £32k is more like $50k... So it is very difficult to compare pre-crisis and post-crisis salary levels. But average salary for employed people in the UK is £26k. And that's in 2009 pounds; adjust for inflation and that's £24k in 2006 pounds. So employed teachers in the UK earn about 33% more than the average employed worker in the UK. The employed teachers in that deeply deprived region of Rhode Island earned about 50% more than the average employed worker in the neighbouring region. Again, I can't say that the extra 17% isn't deserved, for having to work in much more difficult conditions.


--
On a more general note, the problem we're facing is that different measures of income and wealth are more useful in different situations. For example, Per Capita income is useful measure of the productivity of a region -- that is, how much stuff is a region producing, per person in that region? There are other productivity measures that focus on worker productivity, rather than regional productivity, too, which may be more instructive, depending on what you're looking at. And, as explained above, it falls short of being useful when determining whether someone is overpaid or underpaid.

Median household income is a good measure of how deprived an area is. But, again, what about people who are wealthy (i.e. they have a lot of stuff), but aren't earning much? For example, my parents have been working all their lives, and are now retired in a nice, big 4 bed house with 42" plasma TV, Satellite with all the channels, giant fridge freezer, well equipped kitchen, etc etc. They have a lot of stuff, but they live off a relatively small pension -- they are wealthy, even though they don't have a particularly large income.

So what if you wanted to compare your salary with the "average"? Well, in that case, you have to contol some of the variables. Above, I have controlled for employed vs non-employed -- it's fairly useless to include 3 year old toddlers in your comparison! So we remove them. Integral, being the most awesome chap that he is, has included a much more comprehensive (but unfortunately, much less calculable) list of control variables: "regress wage vs poverty (% of students on free & reduced price lunch), ESL %, and other controls; see what the conditional mean wage is, compare to the Central Falls wage, and make your inference."

Personally, I think the estimates I've used above are a decent enough compromise between accuracy and tractability to make a judgement. It's just a matter of how much effort you want to put into it ;)

What I was trying to show was not that some numbers mean exactly blah blah blah, but just trying to put some kind of meaningful indicator on what I've got a sense of from living here. Central Falls is really poor, but really tiny. The teachers probably don't live there, and you don't have to go far to find areas where $78k is unremarkable.
 
What I was trying to show was not that some numbers mean exactly blah blah blah, but just trying to put some kind of meaningful indicator on what I've got a sense of from living here. Central Falls is really poor, but really tiny. The teachers probably don't live there, and you don't have to go far to find areas where $78k is unremarkable.

There is the wider measure to consider: That ares is within the wider measure of the Boston combined statistical area. So the measure for the wages there are not "what should teachers be paid", but rather "what does it take to hire and retain people with masters degrees in the Boston region". Which isn't going to be as cheap as some people want it to be.

Combined statistical area

A wider functional metropolitan area based on commuting patterns is also defined by the Census Bureau as the Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH Combined Statistical Area. This area consists of the metropolitan areas of Manchester, Worcester, and Providence, in addition to Greater Boston. The total population (as of 2005) for the extended region is 7,427,336. The following areas, along with the above MSA, are included in the Combined Statistical Area:

* Worcester, MA Metropolitan Statistical Area (783,262)
o Worcester County, Massachusetts
* Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA Metropolitan Statistical Area (1,622,520)
o Bristol County, Massachusetts
o Bristol County, Rhode Island
o Kent County, Rhode Island
o Newport County, Rhode Island
o Providence County, Rhode Island
o Washington County, Rhode Island
* Concord, NH Micropolitan Statistical Area (146,681)
o Merrimack County, New Hampshire
* Laconia, NH Micropolitan Statistical Area (61,547)
o Belknap County, New Hampshire
* Manchester-Nashua, NH Metropolitan Statistical Area (401,291)
o Hillsborough County, New Hampshire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Boston
 
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