SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[-Asterix-]

whipping Settlers and Workers is advantageous. Settling cities earlier gets them up and running and contributing to our empire sooner.

Second that.

Not sure if our capital will be very food rich in any case, the food bonuses visible ain't that good. It will be a solid capital with ok food and hammers but I don't think it has enough potential for a "pure" Caste System -fueled GP farm. Of course, if we built GLib & Nat. Epic there, it might work for a late medieval domination game...

 

[The-Hawk]

Second that.

Me too. Also, as Htadus pointed out earlier, if we go for henge, we will want to run two scientists early. Most likely in capital.

Food is Good

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the test save, leif. I agree that testing beyond settler for a second city is not how we should spend our time at this point. I'll try to get that done for settling in place and post a save for comparison before retiring tonight.

 

[The-Hawk]

I am going down to DC to spend a day with one of my daughters tomorrow . However, I'll have quite a bit of time for testing on Sunday. I'll probably spend some time testing all three alternatives.

 

[The-Hawk]

Tried just a few tests. So far it looks like Henge is impossible. AI's have been finishing between turn 38 and 46. I can't even get stone hooked up that fast.

Only way we beat then is to build Henge in our capital almost from the start. I can't see us doing that.

I almost never build Henge, is it normally this hard? Not sure what is going on, maybe with teams they are researching very fast?

 

[leif erikson]

Of all the luck, Asoka is one of the AI civs and he had Stone in his initial 9-tiles.

I have removed it and checked that none of the other AI have stone in their initial BFC.

Apologies. Let's try again.

 

[Htadus]

Not sure if our capital will be very food rich in any case, the food bonuses visible ain't that good. It will be a solid capital with ok food and hammers but I don't think it has enough potential for a "pure" Caste System -fueled GP farm. Of course, if we built GLib & Nat. Epic there, it might work for a late medieval domination game...

The capital will not be that great on food WITH the sheep and only be worst without it and from what we know of the map at this moment I would say we have not found OUR GP farm. Even in cast system, most good capitals are cottage based at this level and the only reason the Deity players such as US and others make it a GP farm is that the tech trading is what keep the pace alive and the only way to get a crucial tech is via bulbing. Philo and Education being the most favored due to GS efficiency. The AI provide the needed cottaged cities after Currisars. This game is up your alley I think as in a war game. I am guessing this will have to be a domination.

BTW, what I meant earlier about the advantage of oasis will disapear refers to the fact that since the same commerce yield is available with the sheep but the two extra food will speed up the subsequent faster growth and expansion.

Thanks for the test save, leif. I agree that testing beyond settler for a second city is not how we should spend our time at this point. I'll try to get that done for settling in place and post a save for comparison before retiring tonight.

I whole sale disagree with the founding of the second city is the way to determine a long term game. The 2 extra food is going to be essential even more so when it is time to run 2 scientists in the capital since this will still allow us to work hammer tiles and continue grow. At size 7, the capital with sheep can have 2 scientists (-4 food to cancel the extra food from dry corn and cow), work sheep, cow, corn, reverside plains hill mine and riverside grass hill mine and still grow. So I can not see this as a decision to be based on just a simple fasterst tp the city 2 test. Also we will need a coastal city asap and the forested plains hill is the best option since it will allow that city to work the Oasis, crab and marble at size 3 to help get city 4 up and runing fast. Who knows may be there is a pig or wet corn in the other side. But that is another matter.

Tried just a few tests. So far it looks like Henge is impossible. AI's have been finishing between turn 38 and 46. I can't even get stone hooked up that fast.

Only way we beat then is to build Henge in our capital almost from the start. I can't see us doing that.

I almost never build Henge, is it normally this hard? Not sure what is going on, maybe with teams they are researching very fast?

The gold from a settled GP is not the worst case I guess. I got to go but will be back with a test or 2.

 

[The-Hawk]

Of all the luck, Asoka is one of the AI civs and he had Stone in his initial 9-tiles.

I have removed it and checked that none of the other AI have stone in their initial BFC.

Apologies. Let's try again.

I did not think to go into WB to see who was getting henge at first. I did look the last three times. Twice it was Qin (no stone, but Ind). The other - and earliest - was Asoka (turn 38).

 

[Cactus Pete]

SIP with a two-worker start works well -- see save below: able to get a settler out in 2600s (as AH came in, so would have option to move him to take advantage of either horses or copper, instead of stone, especially if one were near the sheep) by teching Mining, BW (chopped 4 forests), and then AH. (BTW, would revolt to Slavery this turn.)

I've a full day tomorrow but will check back in sometime Sunday afternoon.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=298445&stc=1&d=1313211228

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm headedout of town this weekend.I won't have access to the game until Sunday night.

 

[Htadus]

I did a test settling west. Learning AH while building a worker.

Following spoiler contain the text:

Spoiler :

Turn Settle west
0: Start Worker and AH
5: Culture expand:Using Sheep
7: Buddhi Founded elsewhere
8: Hindu Founded elsewhere
13: AH in, start Mining
15: Worker>War, To Lamb
16: Start pasture
19: Pasture done and using
20: Minig in start BW
21: Size 2. TW in and start
22: Start corn farm/cow
25: Size 3, Using corn, pastured cow and oasis.
26: War>Settler,
27: War>War
31: Corn done
32: BW in >TW
35: Settler>Worker
37: Revolt
38: Found NY
39 SH built elsewhere

No chops, no whipping yet, size 3 capital, one worker, one warrior and one settler(2600 BC) completed. NY founded(2480) on the forested plains hill where the new warrior has secured for a few turns and now working on a wb. Two pastures, farm and a mine is done but will need to connect the cities via two roads. Once the 2nd worker is done. I let capitalvgrow to 4 building a warrior and chop settler number 2 and then start on the Myds. Once the wheel is in I teched to Masonry and myst.

That darn stonehenge is being built at a typical pace for a normal emperor game. So do we want it? if so we need to build it early and I think it is a bad idea, since it will give us two GP's too early.

I am not sure if we can get the oracle without heading to it before writing. Anyways, that is not going to happen in my turnset but should be discussed now.

BTW I have been trying to get my screen shots to look better but not going as well as I hoped. If i can get my old commputer to work, I will use that since it create good screen shots.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds good, Htadus. Will be able to look at your save late tonight and compare and comment further. Why did you keep building warriors instead of an archer?

 

[Htadus]

Sounds good, Htadus. Will be able to look at your save late tonight and compare and comment further. Why did you keep building warriors instead of an archer?

Since we already have revolted to slavery, we can whip a pop if the need is there. How ever we are going to need several MP's so I figure that warriors should do a fine job during expansion and if the need pop up then we build a several archers. I think we will get that need at about city 4. But I guess foggers should be archers since they last a long time. Honestly i am not very familier with the use of archers since I almost always never have that tech well untill getting it through trades. So I am going to listen to the team in that regards.

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm trying a little different approach. My thoughts:

- Assuming we will be needing archers, so I am trying to make sure all settlers have an archer escort.
- Not trying for Henge at all. Therefore, very early settler is not critical.
- Since early settler is not needed, trying to let the capital grow out a bit.

So, basically went worker, start archer, switch to worker at pop 3, finish archer 1, archer 2, start archer 3, the finally switch to settler at pop 5. My first settler is slower than CP's or Htadus' games. However, at turn 46:

- Capital at pop 5, working 5 improved tiles for 11 hammers and 6 surplus foods. 17 production for settlers and workers.
- 3 chops used.
- Almost finished Pottery.
- Three archers built, so should be able to handle any unpleasant surprises.
- One settler ready to settle. 2nd settler probably in 2-3 turns (chop underway).
- In two turns, I can start a granary and then start whipping settlers and workers.

Details:



Turn 46 save:

View attachment Hawk test 1W.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

Not sure I understand the great need for archers to accompany earliest settlers. Is it not the case that both barbs and the AI will not cross cultural borders until 2000BC?

Concur that we don't have the same pressure to produce an early settler if we don't go for SH, but having the second settler built as soon as possible after we have teched both AH and BW deserves some priority. Thinking that we would not have been given Archery if either copper or horses were in the fat cross, so settling a city near one may be critical if we're going to be able to steal workers, delay the development of the nearest AI(s), and settle fairly far to the west to prevent others from taking desirable sites.

Htadus's approach comes close to this. Weakness is the delay in building workers. 3rd settler before 2nd worker is probably not optimal. While the second city can work the oasis, a third city will very likely need some tiles improved to be very useful.

Settling in place has significant advantages, but probably will only turn out to be optimal if there is a good city site adjacent to the sheep, and, while that's not unlikely, it's probably too big a chance to take. So I have no problem with moving the settler 1W and pausing to consider what we see across the river before refining our early game plan.

 

[The-Hawk]

Not sure I understand the great need for archers to accompany earliest settlers. Is it not the case that both barbs and the AI will not cross cultural borders until 2000BC?

Not sure I do either .

Warriors vs. archers doesn't affect the testing much... I was mostly building units while growing population. If I built warriors instead, simply would have gotten more out sooner. Obviously better this way, unless there is a major barb animal problem. Agree they can't enter our cities, but a bear can kill a warrior escorting a settler.

 

[Htadus]

Not sure I do either .

Warriors vs. archers doesn't affect the testing much... I was mostly building units while growing population. If I built warriors instead, simply would have gotten more out sooner. Obviously better this way, unless there is a major barb animal problem. Agree they can't enter our cities, but a bear can kill a warrior escorting a settler.

I usually like to set up the warriors to go to the tile and wait for the settler if the fog busting can guarentee safety. But for claiming far off cities, I can see that a archer would be preferable.

BTW, did anyone even considered settling on the forested PH? I do not think there is any more food near by but wonder what might be near by. I do not think we can offord to loose a turn either. Just throwing out odd ball ideas as I promised to leif .

 

[DJMGator13]

The 1N option gives us atleast +13fpt (+3 from corn, +3 sheep, +1 oasis, +6 three iGrasslands) with 3 tiles still in the fog.

1W will give the same +13fpt (+3from corn, +3 sheep, +1 cow, +6 from three iGrasslands) with 3 tiles still in the fog.

SIP looks to only give +9fpt (+3from corn, +1 cow, +1 oasis, +4 from two iGrasslands)

We have fishing so the lakes are usable already. Both locations (1N & 1W) keep the 3 hills, but the cows will add extra hammers when improved that the 1N won't have access to.

A little Fog gazing reveals some kind of plain tile and 2 forested grassland tiles in the fog to the north. While west of the lake is showing plain forest, grassland and another plain forest by the cows. I'm not seeing the greyish/silverish streaks show on the plain hills so I think those are just regular forest plain tiles.

I think 1W may have more initial hammer potential but depending on the fresh water 1N may have more potential fpt under the fog.

Edit2: SH wouldn't be a high priority as our only visible lux is spices and Calendar obsloetes SH

Edit1: Leif - put me low on the roster - I'll be limited to mostly weekend time for playing/testing over the next few weeks as it is our final year-end push at work.

 

[Htadus]

@Gator,
In BTS, SH is active until Astro, which we may need soon anyways.

 

[-Asterix-]

Hmm... Those SH dates around t40 sound very early to me. I guess they require some industrious AI with Myst at start or somebody with direct access to stone. Around t50+ would be when I'd expect SH to go.

As charismatic, we will want those monuments even if we would want Astro asap. +1 happiness is nothing to sneeze at. Building SH would help early cities skip it as the first build/whip/chop but I think it should be built either with stone or not at all. We need Masonry to get the stone even if we settle on it, right?

One possible scenario to try SH if somebody has time to test:

- settle 1W, 1N or in place, whichever gets best results (oasis would be good here)
- starting builds: worker -> possibly warrior or two while growing to best size to build settler -> settler
- worker improves 1-2 tiles (at least corn) from capital while waiting for BW, then moves out to pre-chop 2-3 forests around stone
- settle on stone, start SH and chop once stone is online
- techs: Mining -> BW -> Myst -> Masonry (AH asap if there's room for it, I guess there isn't)

This would delay early REX but get later cities bigger sooner.

Another possibility would be to get Myst asap, put one hammer to SH in capital and build it later in second city.

But anyway, monuments aren't that bad thing to whip (overflow) so maybe we shouldn't prioritize SH too much? What do you guys think?