Grifftavian
Emperor
No, they have not met. However, they both may have met someone else as we are no longer the worst enemy of either ****gawa.aj said:
SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ronnie1
Deity
Are you back C63?
Conquistador 63
Deity
Yes, but I thought Oz would play a few more turns by your request...which I support if Oz is willing and able to do it.
Not at my game PC right now, though, and still haven't had the time to open last save.
Not at my game PC right now, though, and still haven't had the time to open last save.
Ronnie1
Deity
I changed that post...possibly before Oz saw it based on your response that you would be back soon.
Calling OZ!!!
Do you want to figure a quick 4 turn PPP through the completion of the Oracle?
Calling OZ!!!
Do you want to figure a quick 4 turn PPP through the completion of the Oracle?
Sorry didn't see this, was thinking C63 was taking over. Not sure I have time to continue at the moment.
Ronnie1
Deity
No worries Oz
C63 is UP NOW
C63 is UP NOW
Just a few thoughts from work whilst I have a few spare moments.
Writing - libraries. Do we turn research off after writing whilst building libs.
Leading to tech path.
I favour math - construction and rid ourselves off "real" Toku asap then concentrate on keeping rest of AI happy and going towards culture. Aesth - Music - Lib line.
Religions?? We should have Hindu, Christ, Tao and Bud from Toku so no lack there and probably a good chance of Conf (or equivalent). Was thinking we should concentrate on cathederals with the resource but we have all 3 anyway.
Cities. From what we can see we shouldn't have any problems getting to the 9 needed. Where to settle next though? Clam/banana is a good site but no food till fishing/calendar/irrigation.
Writing - libraries. Do we turn research off after writing whilst building libs.
Leading to tech path.
I favour math - construction and rid ourselves off "real" Toku asap then concentrate on keeping rest of AI happy and going towards culture. Aesth - Music - Lib line.
Religions?? We should have Hindu, Christ, Tao and Bud from Toku so no lack there and probably a good chance of Conf (or equivalent). Was thinking we should concentrate on cathederals with the resource but we have all 3 anyway.
Cities. From what we can see we shouldn't have any problems getting to the 9 needed. Where to settle next though? Clam/banana is a good site but no food till fishing/calendar/irrigation.
As for cities, we will get 4 or so from Toko and who knows what on the other side of him, for culture we probably only want to found ourselves high food or high production cities.
Conquistador 63
Deity
I should be able to open the save and post a draft PPP in the next 48h.
Conquistador 63
Deity
Still don't have a PPP to present, and haven't opened the save, but I just re-read the last few pages of this thread and I wanted to discuss some ideas. Sleepless's post quoted below is a good starting point.
Additional comments:
It's been a while since I gave this game some thought, so please excuse me if I sound too critic/harsh below - just trying to help us.
I would have REXed more before commiting to the Pyramids. I assume the Rep civic is the driver behind this choice. Happiness doesn't look to be critic, given we have some happy metals around. Do we see ourselves hiring specialists so soon?
We also need to explore more of the map, the lay of the land is a big question mark for us. Exploring workboats would have helped a lot, but we can still amend this issue if we go Fishing after Writing. We also need granaries badly, our current cities don't have a particularly high food surplus.
By settling 1N of crabs we can work the seafood, unimproved banana and at least 3 grass hill mines. Sounds good enough for me.Just a few thoughts from work whilst I have a few spare moments. Same here
Writing - libraries. Do we turn research off after writing whilst building libs. I think we need at least fishing and pottery, then we can shut down research for a while
Leading to tech path.
I favour math - construction and rid ourselves off "real" Toku asap then concentrate on keeping rest of AI happy and going towards culture. Aesth - Music - Lib line. See above comment
Religions?? We should have Hindu, Christ, Tao and Bud from Toku so no lack there and probably a good chance of Conf (or equivalent). Was thinking we should concentrate on cathederals with the resource but we have all 3 anyway.
Cities. From what we can see we shouldn't have any problems getting to the 9 needed. Where to settle next though? Clam/banana is a good site but no food till fishing/calendar/irrigation.
Additional comments:
It's been a while since I gave this game some thought, so please excuse me if I sound too critic/harsh below - just trying to help us.
I would have REXed more before commiting to the Pyramids. I assume the Rep civic is the driver behind this choice. Happiness doesn't look to be critic, given we have some happy metals around. Do we see ourselves hiring specialists so soon?
We also need to explore more of the map, the lay of the land is a big question mark for us. Exploring workboats would have helped a lot, but we can still amend this issue if we go Fishing after Writing. We also need granaries badly, our current cities don't have a particularly high food surplus.
Have in mind that doesn't mean they aren't plotting a war against us, just that they went from annoyed to cautious due to being at peace for N turns.
Since we're unfortunately locked on Hindu, let's try to maximize its benefits. Instead of build 30h crappy monuments in new cities, let's build 40h hindu missionaries and send them to whichever city still lacking the religion, from established cities. Religion gives the culture AND the OR/Pacifism/Theo benefit, whichever aplies at any given moment. We were lucky to have it spread to VJ, so I'd build missionaries there.
adrianj
Deity
Regarding the REX, perhaps I'm dwelling on it far too much, but let's not forget this game is "No City Razing". I'm in agreement that killing off Toku is the way to go, but I'm concerned that if we go ahead and settle every city we can we will end up with a large number of cities, which could hurt our efficiency if going for a cultural VC.
Just to restate my idea about the Cultural VC:
At no point would I suggest this is the best/fastest way to win this game. I'm working on the suspicion that the mapmaker has made the other conditions difficult enough that culture will at least be competitive. Yes, that is a huge assumption to make. Given that assumption, I figure we at least fully commit to the best cultural game we can play. If it turns out that culture was in fact a good idea for this map, then we have a real chance at a medal
. If not, then hopefully we all learn something about how to play a really great cultural game.
Global Strategy
To achieve the cultural VC, I'm thinking that our main drivers will be Great Artist bombs, of which we hope to produce many given that we are Philosophical. In a "usual" cultural game (at least for me) I would run a fairly balanced empire aiming to tech to Liberalism/Nationalism/Drama while building Cathedrals, and THEN turn off the slider and aim to produce the many great artists I want.
In this game, I'm thinking we could get going on the artists much much earlier. We are also Spiritual. We could really leverage this by switching back and forth between Caste System and Slavery as we swap between Culture/Science and Production modes. Right from the moment we learn CoL I think we should be running artists wherever we can. This is where the Pyramids come in: Most of our research could be coming from the artists.
Milestones
Expanding to 9+ cities
This is typical for a cultural game, where every three cities is worth a cathedral. But, if our empire is well committed to producing Great Artists we might find a large chunk of our culture comes from artist bombs, which are unaffected by cathedrals. If we had 6 cities for example, then one legendary city basically misses out - but it's possible to bomb 40000
using 10 GArtists. I'm hopeful we can get twice that number of GArtists.
Where the extra cities do come in useful is to produce the artists.
Immediate Concerns
That's sort of an outline, so these suggestions are based on playing a game as described above.
To answer C63s immediate questions. Mids are a key driver of our research, missing them would be quite a loss. Settling an extra city or two is not necessarily as important as a) securing Mids, and b) quickly killing Toku before he settles garbage cities.
Explore the map. Yes, certainly wise. Though, pretty much every AI we meet we can expect will dislike us. The longer we delay meeting them the later they will start planning a war against us. If we're lucky, it will give them more time to get angry at eachother.
Monuments vs Missionaries. I agree, missionaries are better value.
Tech path. Pottery for sure, since granaries+food+slavery gives such great production. Fishing... I suppose it's cheap at least and the banana/crabs city might as well be settled sooner rather than later. Workboats to explore... I'm not so excited about. Maths->Construction thereafter sounds good to me.
Just to restate my idea about the Cultural VC:
At no point would I suggest this is the best/fastest way to win this game. I'm working on the suspicion that the mapmaker has made the other conditions difficult enough that culture will at least be competitive. Yes, that is a huge assumption to make. Given that assumption, I figure we at least fully commit to the best cultural game we can play. If it turns out that culture was in fact a good idea for this map, then we have a real chance at a medal
. If not, then hopefully we all learn something about how to play a really great cultural game.Global Strategy
To achieve the cultural VC, I'm thinking that our main drivers will be Great Artist bombs, of which we hope to produce many given that we are Philosophical. In a "usual" cultural game (at least for me) I would run a fairly balanced empire aiming to tech to Liberalism/Nationalism/Drama while building Cathedrals, and THEN turn off the slider and aim to produce the many great artists I want.
In this game, I'm thinking we could get going on the artists much much earlier. We are also Spiritual. We could really leverage this by switching back and forth between Caste System and Slavery as we swap between Culture/Science and Production modes. Right from the moment we learn CoL I think we should be running artists wherever we can. This is where the Pyramids come in: Most of our research could be coming from the artists.
Milestones
- Apostolic Palace: This isn't about aiming for an AP victory. This is about denying it to the AI, who are allied as Buddhist against us, hence an AP defeat is a real possibility. The extra production for all our Hindu buildings is also a real bonus.
- Kill off Toku: Expect him to be a thorn in our side for the whole game if we don't remove him. Unfortunately, this requires a deviation in our tech path of at least Construction. I suggest we do it ASAP before he settles too many garbage cities that we are forced to keep.
- Expand to not much more than 9 cities. Even this I'm not entirely convinced about - see below.
- Tech to Music: Free GArtist. Also enables Sistine Chapel which is an excellent wonder. Aesthetics and Parthenon are also on the way, which would be a bonus.
- Tech to Philosophy: Enables Pacifism and hopefully land us an extra religion. Consider bulbing this with a GS.
- Tech to Civil Service: Bureaucracy is always nice. Our capital won't be the mega
city, but it will have great production. Consider bulbing this with a Great Prophet if we have extra from Oracle/AP city. - Tech to Education/Liberalism/Nationalism: Consider spending a GS to bulb part Education. Switch to Free Speech with Lib.
- Finish tech at Drama. Fully commit to culture game.
- All throughout: build the requisite temples/cathedrals.
Expanding to 9+ cities
This is typical for a cultural game, where every three cities is worth a cathedral. But, if our empire is well committed to producing Great Artists we might find a large chunk of our culture comes from artist bombs, which are unaffected by cathedrals. If we had 6 cities for example, then one legendary city basically misses out - but it's possible to bomb 40000
using 10 GArtists. I'm hopeful we can get twice that number of GArtists.Where the extra cities do come in useful is to produce the artists.
Immediate Concerns
That's sort of an outline, so these suggestions are based on playing a game as described above.
To answer C63s immediate questions. Mids are a key driver of our research, missing them would be quite a loss. Settling an extra city or two is not necessarily as important as a) securing Mids, and b) quickly killing Toku before he settles garbage cities.
Explore the map. Yes, certainly wise. Though, pretty much every AI we meet we can expect will dislike us. The longer we delay meeting them the later they will start planning a war against us. If we're lucky, it will give them more time to get angry at eachother.
Monuments vs Missionaries. I agree, missionaries are better value.
Tech path. Pottery for sure, since granaries+food+slavery gives such great production. Fishing... I suppose it's cheap at least and the banana/crabs city might as well be settled sooner rather than later. Workboats to explore... I'm not so excited about. Maths->Construction thereafter sounds good to me.
Have to agree with AJ on not rexing to much early. Witn no foreign trade routes atm we are relying on the gold/gems for money which works great for early techs but not so good later when our rep specs comes in.
Saying that another couple of cities certainly crab site and is there a feasible site up in the North by the wheat? (also helps block Hammy Toku).
Tech path if we do settle crab early def need fish. Also must admit I don't prioritise granaries enough so early pottery as well sounds good.
Edit: We don't necessarily need Civil Service as we can go through Theo - paper - edu. Not saying we shouldn't but..
Saying that another couple of cities certainly crab site and is there a feasible site up in the North by the wheat? (also helps block Hammy Toku).
Tech path if we do settle crab early def need fish. Also must admit I don't prioritise granaries enough so early pottery as well sounds good.
Edit: We don't necessarily need Civil Service as we can go through Theo - paper - edu. Not saying we shouldn't but..
Conquistador 63
Deity
Draft PPP: Part 1: until completion of Writing/Oracle hopefully
RESEARCH
finish Writing (1t @0%, 3t @100%)
Fishing/Pottery (for Part2)
CITY BUILDS
Delhi
Switch to hindu missionary for Bombay (3t build)
Continue with Pyramids
Bombay
finish Oracle
finish monument
start AP
Vijay
Fast Worker, whipped next turn
hindu missionary for #4
city4
Fast Worker
FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN
1 finish mine, farm FP for faster growth in Delhi
2 road to VJ, pasture pigs
3 chop for Oracle
4 when ready, pasture pigs, then help with Delhi development (mines/farm)
UNIT MOVES
Exploring warrior: cross fingers and try to survive from barb warrior, then fogbust for city5 (wheat)
Axe: back to Bombay for insurance?
THE OTHER STUFF
With all this wonderwhoring where to build next settlers?
REASONS TO PAUSE
Oracle or Mids built IAFAL
Meeting a new AI Civ
Pesky Barbarian encrochment
Anything unusual happens
RESEARCH
finish Writing (1t @0%, 3t @100%)
Fishing/Pottery (for Part2)
CITY BUILDS
Delhi
Switch to hindu missionary for Bombay (3t build)
Continue with Pyramids
Bombay
finish Oracle
finish monument
start AP
Vijay
Fast Worker, whipped next turn
hindu missionary for #4
city4
Fast Worker
FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN
1 finish mine, farm FP for faster growth in Delhi
2 road to VJ, pasture pigs
3 chop for Oracle
4 when ready, pasture pigs, then help with Delhi development (mines/farm)
UNIT MOVES
Exploring warrior: cross fingers and try to survive from barb warrior, then fogbust for city5 (wheat)
Axe: back to Bombay for insurance?
THE OTHER STUFF
With all this wonderwhoring where to build next settlers?
REASONS TO PAUSE
Oracle or Mids built IAFAL
Meeting a new AI Civ
Pesky Barbarian encrochment
Anything unusual happens
Grifftavian
Emperor
^^ PPP looks good to me.
But if we're going to take out Toku soon, we might be better off building a Barracks in Vijay and start building an Army. Toku already has 4 cities, and as we can't raze any cities in this game, if we could take out Toku now, that would give us 8 cities (ours + Toku's). I imagine that Toku may build another city or two by the time we have a large enough Army to start an attack. If we want to limit our empire size to 9 or 10 cities for a cultural victory, then assimilating Toku's cities could put us there without building another Settler of our own.
OTOH, we have at least two more good city sites we could found ourselves; the NW Wheat City, which would also serve as a block for Hammygawa, and the Banana/Crab city SW of Delhi. That would get us to six cities, which is the minimum we need to start toward a Cultural Victory. I'm pretty sure we could found cities #5 & #6 quicker than we could build an Army and capture 4+ Japanese cities. That may be a way to achieve an earlier Cultural Victory and possibly grab some a spot on the awards podium.
Anyway, that's how I see it. What does everyone else think?
Vijay might be a good spot for a Settler build once it gets its Pig Pasture online.C63 said:
But if we're going to take out Toku soon, we might be better off building a Barracks in Vijay and start building an Army. Toku already has 4 cities, and as we can't raze any cities in this game, if we could take out Toku now, that would give us 8 cities (ours + Toku's). I imagine that Toku may build another city or two by the time we have a large enough Army to start an attack. If we want to limit our empire size to 9 or 10 cities for a cultural victory, then assimilating Toku's cities could put us there without building another Settler of our own.
OTOH, we have at least two more good city sites we could found ourselves; the NW Wheat City, which would also serve as a block for Hammygawa, and the Banana/Crab city SW of Delhi. That would get us to six cities, which is the minimum we need to start toward a Cultural Victory. I'm pretty sure we could found cities #5 & #6 quicker than we could build an Army and capture 4+ Japanese cities. That may be a way to achieve an earlier Cultural Victory and possibly grab some a spot on the awards podium.
Anyway, that's how I see it. What does everyone else think?
Ronnie1
Deity
1 forest at Bombay (where the worker is standing now) is already prechopped.
Also, we had talked about whipping the Monument the turn before we reach Writing and letting the overflow finish the Oracle, and save the forest for the AP. I have not tested if 1 way is better than the other, or if keeping the pop higher might be a better way to go.
PPP looks good to me!
Also, we had talked about whipping the Monument the turn before we reach Writing and letting the overflow finish the Oracle, and save the forest for the AP. I have not tested if 1 way is better than the other, or if keeping the pop higher might be a better way to go.
PPP looks good to me!
adrianj
Deity
Yes, I think we should be clear on what we are doing with this forest/whipping. If we can save the forest to whip later (when city has OR bonus) that would be great. But don't slow down the Oracle build by even one turn later than we learn Writing - I'm paranoid enough about the AI building it before us!
I agree. Would be great to see the next three/four turns played out to see if we have Oracle.
Is it at all possible to rig our empire to higher
that we can shave a turn off learning writing?
Ronnie1
Deity
I don't think so, but I will investigate it later today.
Conquistador 63
Deity
I'm away from the game but with such a small empire and the city screenies Ron posted a while ago it is easy to conclude that only possible tile-swapping for more commerce would be the deer forest in Delhi and a grass forest in VJ for a couple non-forest-riverside-grass (2). Not enough to gain a turn of research.
About hammers for Oracle, not sure how many hammers invested, but if the 1 chop isn't enough to complete it in 4t, I can whip monument for overflow, otherwise I will just complete it afterwards. Since a chop(20h) equals roughly 3t of production in Bombay (7hpt), I think we'll be ok w/o whip.
If I get a green light from the team I could be able to play these 4turns in some 5h from this post.
). Not enough to gain a turn of research.About hammers for Oracle, not sure how many hammers invested, but if the 1 chop isn't enough to complete it in 4t, I can whip monument for overflow, otherwise I will just complete it afterwards. Since a chop(20h) equals roughly 3t of production in Bombay (7hpt), I think we'll be ok w/o whip.
If I get a green light from the team I could be able to play these 4turns in some 5h from this post.
Grifftavian
Emperor
Just checked, we have 54 
invested in The Oracle build (150 required). We're generating 14 per turn on the build (7 base + 100% bonus for access to Marble). Game shows 7 turns to complete The Oracle, 12 turns until growth to size 4 in Bombay.
@C63: you have a green light from me. Good Luck!
invested in The Oracle build (150 required). We're generating 14 per turn on the build (7 base + 100% bonus for access to Marble). Game shows 7 turns to complete The Oracle, 12 turns until growth to size 4 in Bombay.@C63: you have a green light from me. Good Luck!
Conquistador 63
Deity
Thanks for the info,Griff!
So it will complete in 4t:
hammers to go: 150h-54h=96h;
4t of normal production: (4t*14h/t)=56h;
1 forest: 20*2(marble): +40h -> job done!
So it will complete in 4t:
hammers to go: 150h-54h=96h;
4t of normal production: (4t*14h/t)=56h;
1 forest: 20*2(marble): +40h -> job done!
