[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[Hesha]

Aqueduct in stone city, noooooo!

Well, if you know another way to build HG... let me know!

 

[lymond]

Yep, hesh is trying for HG...only reason for that aquaduct.

Hesh - one thing to be careful of when you switch to caste is that some cities may switch to an artist automatically. Governors like to do that if the city has not popped that first border. So make sure you change that immediately.

We only want the artists running in Pi right now for a border pop as there is a specific reason for that...but the other cities do not need an artist or border pop, and we don't want to infect the gene pool.

 

[krikav]

Hmm.. yes HG might be nice here with so many cities.

Play a non-IND civ next time, and reroll if you find stone/marble.
This game is getting completely skewed into a wonder hoarding championship.

 

[Hesha]

I rolled Ramesses, wasn't my choice! I've already rolled the next start (pretty good first city position, I think) but I didn't want to start another shadow game, so I'll wait. I meain, it looks like I might be dominiating in this game soon-ish, if that happens I'll probably quit and restart, because it's hard to learn when you're in too advantageous a situation.

The next game will be whatever comes after Monarch, let's see if I can handle that. The next one after that is Immortal, but I might need to practice a little on the lower difficulty fist.

How hard is Deity? I mean, do you guys win every Deity game you start no matter the starting position?

 

[Zavior]

How hard is Deity? I mean, do you guys win every Deity game you start no matter the starting position?

Just watch Lain.

 

[krikav]

I do not win every deity game I start, far from it.
At best, I achieve what I think is a winning position in about half of them.
But winning a "won" position is far from easy.

Also, I have a tendency to from time to time try to force my will upon the map.
The most recent game of the month I was in a clearly winning position if I would have gone for diplo or culture, but I stubbornly wanted to see blood, and trying to force that when the map didn't call for it led to my demise.
Still learning... after all these years.

 

[lymond]

eh...let's not get ahead of ourselves

yeah, Deity is a whole other animal

plenty to learn here and this map is a bit unusual for most starts I'd suggest. While plenty decent cities there's really not a lot of food and the cap was a low food start. How you would approach this with more food would be different - more whipping for sure

yep, and I'd focus less on wonders while learn usually. But GLH was a given here..no harm in that..as was mids.

 

[Fippy]

While i sometimes looked dominant in deity botm or similar, i will happily admit that i lost tons of deity games (especially to barb archers ~~).
Everybody loses on deity sometimes, unless they are good liars.

 

[Hesha]

There are no real esports based on Civ4, are there? I mean like with AOE2 or something like that?

 

[krikav]

No, closest thing is HoF and/or BOTM.
Don't feel like there is much competition either btw... feels more like a cooperative venture.

 

[Hesha]

So it's really more prevalent to play the same map in SP than to play competitively or team-competitively in MP? I played Civ4 in MP in 2009/2010 (or thereabouts) and I really enjoyed it. The reason I picked it up again now, is because my little brother has been bugging me to play something with him in MP (He's 23), so I wanted to practice some here and learn from you guys, so I have something to teach him and all.

 

[Hesha]

Okay, I'm back home and ready to play some more. Just to make sure I didn't overlook this @lymond : You didn't respond to my trade with Mansa for CoL... do you think it was worth the tech + 115g and getting Justinian as my "worst enemy"?

 

[lymond]

Oh..I think I kinda glossed over that since the trade was done. Generally, I would probably not trade away that much gold for a tech, maybe a little. However, you then impact your own ability to tech. Not overly worried on the malus with Justy right now..that will wear off. I would gift Justy Writing now. Otherwise, my recommended plan was outlined yesterday.

 

[lymond]

On another note, you probably jump off when going by to play turns, so you may forget some advice. You can play in window mode which allows easy access to read the forum while playing the game. This can be changed in the config file. Search for "full screen". Change it to "ask" and you will be prompted. Just note that the best way to navigate in window mode is clicking on the mini-map - little awkward at first but you grow accustomed to it fast. (you can also click>hold>drag on the mini map)

 

[Hesha]

Oh..I think I kinda glossed over that since the trade was done. Generally, I would probably not trade away that much gold for a tech, maybe a little. However, you then impact your own ability to tech. Not overly worried on the malus with Justy right now..that will wear off. I would gift Justy Writing now. Otherwise, my recommended plan was outlined yesterday.

Okay, so you are as ambiguous on that trade as I am? You are correct of course, because of the trade, I have to keep saving up until I can research again. At the same time, trading away a tech doesn't hurt me per se and researching CoL myself would cost me 3 turns plus more than 115 gold, so... you think the trade was better than not trading? And I was thinking to gift Writing to Justy as well!

I'll reply to your suggestions from yesterday in my next post!

 

[Hesha]

On another note, you probably jump off when going by to play turns, so you may forget some advice. You can play in window mode which allows easy access to read the forum while playing the game. This can be changed in the config file. Search for "full screen". Change it to "ask" and you will be prompted. Just note that the best way to navigate in window mode is clicking on the mini-map - little awkward at first but you grow accustomed to it fast. (you can also click>hold>drag on the mini map)

Don't think I can do this. I know that playing anything in windowed mode litterally sucks the will to live out of me...

 

[lymond]

Don't think I can do this. I know that playing anything in windowed mode litterally sucks the will to live out of me...

well, we don't want that to happen. It's not as bad as you think though..it still fills almost your whole desktop. And it is setup to be optional. It prompts you on startup, so you can choose full screen when you want. But for reading advice while playing it can be very convenient. Conversely, with me looking at your saves while responding.

Ok..I'll be less ambiguous and say that I would not have made that trade. But it ain't gonna kill you here either.

 

[Hesha]

well, we don't want that to happen. It's not as bad as you think though..it still fills almost your whole desktop.

Ok..I'll be less ambiguous and say that I would not have made that trade. But it ain't gonna kill you here either.

Okay, let's say I go back a save and don't do that trade. Then Music is off the table and I do CoL and then CS? And then hope to sweet baby Jesus that I will still be first to music?

 

[lymond]

Well, your chance is better now that you actually haven't traded Aesths. Please do note my advice from yesterday, although the one main diff is you won't be switching to caste yet.

I would still whip Library in Helio now. Might as well do so at lower pop point as growth will be faster. Just keep focus on max food there for a while.

(i edit the post above with more thoughts on window mode)

really surprised you have not been infected with religion yet. maybe as you met Mansa later than in my test...ha ..i sent the wb the other way.

 

[Hesha]

But actually I do like a well timed forge whip in Memphis for Colossus..you can get good OF into it and that OF is then boosted by the forge itself. Tricky thing is timing a 2 pop forge whip with IND due to the bonus. Seems you did that ok.

Glad you liked that

If I recall, you may have earlier teched CoL and received the religion. Not a big deal though. But yes CoL will provide caste system which you can switch into for a spell if whipping is not needed in short term (great benefit of Spiritual trait). krikav mentioned PH first as it is a predecessor tech that gives a small bonus. I think we talked about that before.

Yes, you are correct, I think. According to my estimate, I would have been first to CoL had I researched it at the time. Does that matter? Should I really try to get Tao, Christianity or Islam now?

Keep eye on tech trade comparisons - even getting a little gold for something someone is close to finishing is nice. Surprised Justy does not have Writing. You could gift it to him now for fair trade bonus, or wait next turn to see if you get some gold.

Let's see what the options are, if I don't do the trade that makes him hate my guts.

YEP...JC is very close on Maths. Check that in the dialogue so you see what I mean, then just trade it for his 20g.

I don't think I see what you mean. When I try to trade him maths for Hunting, he still offers me money on top of hunting... should he ask for money, if he was really close himself?

1) Civil Service is an important tech as it will enable Bureaucracy for Thebes. Bonus to commerce and hammers in cap. Thebes doesn't have cottages though, but it does have the extra trade routes, and the extra hammers are nice. Most times you will setup a good Bureau cap. The extra hammers will help with TGL.

---CS allows for chain irrigation too

2) Music is nice for the free Great Artist which you can use for an early Golden Age which has some great benefits that we can discuss soon.

Hmm... If I don't trade for CoL and have to tech it myself, I think CoL plus CS might make it quite unlikely to get that GA, what do you think? Okay, already saw your other response. So CoL->CS->Music it is then?

You should start seeing Mansa's tech next turn. (check espionage screen to see why)

Ah yes, because I can see his research from 75 EPs on, I have 74 and generate 4 every turn.

Pi can work coastal tile and still grow in 2 turns

Okay!

I'd actually have Memphis put those hammers into Chitzen Itza. Maoi is fine too but you have time on that, and itza is a great wonder, so another AI like mansa may build it sooner than later.

See, my reasoning was that Chitzen Itza will be available for a while, but I will probably start the Moai in Horse town relatively soon - i.e. Moai will become unavailable for failgolding sooner than Chitzen Itza... think my judgement was off?

Elie takes 2F forest from Giza since Giza has its own 2F1H tile. Make sure you micro these things to work best tiles, even unimproved tiles.

Will do!

There is a dark spot near the iron in the center that is a danger for a barb spot...you can move warrior 1SW out of Helio to bust ..just leave him there for now until we get that covered.

Yeah... I had a worker covering it with his 5x5 until last turn (I think), then forgot to replace him when he moved.

You can cancel cow with JC and trade it for corn. keep an eye on him getting gpt and then you can trade clam for gpt

I thought I had already done that! Will do it now anyways...

Ivory requires more than 1 resource to get as it is higher value...I'm more than fine right now trading a cow and a fish or sheep for it

He wants Cow and Horse, let's see if he will accept Cow and Something else.

Worker mining the PH near Thebes is a waste

Okay! Sorry... wanted to give Thebes another worthwile tile but I guess a farm would have been better (but I don't think I can make those without CS, right?)

edit: actually I don't see a need to whip in next five turns..so do this

Whip Lib in Helio now...then switch to caste.

Run an artist in Pi for border pop.

Move Worker from Thebes PH to forest.1NE of rice...this can be chopped when border pops and then serve as chain irrigation source for the rice with a farm after CS

edit: we have options on new settlers now. Helio can start a new one after Lib whip. I want Memphis to grow some but it can build one. Gize maybe could chop one after wheat is improved. (wheat will be even stronger automatically after CS)

Will whip as discussed, but not switch to Caste. The rest doesn't work without caste, but I can still prechop that forest.

You know..It's just dawning on me that I feel we are a bit low on workers...and that is my fault. We've done really well here in managing them so far, but the ratio of workers to cities is quite bad.

I think I like taking those hammers in Memphis for a new worker. So I would build worker this turn, then Itza next turn to grow to 4, then finish worker..don't whip it.

Oh, okay. No settler in memphis then, a worker instead, okay! And then failgold in between and after that.

We can look to get more workers later, but I like getting another one so the others can focus on the Western Cities, but we have a guy near home to work stuff. Still not sure on cottages or farms for Thebes. I'm thinking farms after CS since we can chain irrigate from the tile 1E of Thebes to the grass tiles.

cottages would be okay, but a heck of a long time to develop at this point for Thebes and Ram is not fine.

I'm thinking farms as well.

I might start a worker in Elie actually as well and use that chop for it next turn. I'd just really like to get more workers here. There is stuff to do.

Won't this jeopardise getting the GH before the AI does?