[BTS] Shadow Game: Monarch w/ Charlemagne

[coanda]

W of Vienna is fully fogbusted, not just mostly. Barbarians cannot spawn anywhere visible to a player, nor within a 5x5 box of a unit, so that warrior on the bay covers the sugar tile that is in fog. The warrior is also standing where you'll put a late city. Bananas, fish, sugar, and a lot of green tiles is solid long-term potential, but it'll be very slow to get developed.

I would advise taking out at least one of your neighbors. You've got horses and ivory, both of which are great for early wars, you've got the commerce tiles to cover maintenance, and them settling in your direction has made distances relatively short. Either horseback riding tech and horse archers, or construction tech and elepult; both should be very doable. Try to save some forests for that, and let your cities grow up in size before the relevant tech finishes so you can quickly do some whipping.

 

[Peteyboy]

Barbarians cannot spawn anywhere visible to a player, nor within a 5x5 box of a unit, so that warrior on the bay covers the sugar tile that is in fog

I didn't know that re the fog aspect. Does that also include shroud (I.E Unrevealed land?) In this case, it's a convenient 5x5 (roughly) square, as nothing can even move into the 5x5 square. But I'll certainly use that for future fogbusting (I always tried to ensure I could see the area (I.E probably used 1 or 2 more units than necessary.)

 

[MrBungler]

W of Vienna is fully fogbusted

Great info coanda, thx

I would advise taking out at least one of your neighbors

challenge accepted, will take me out of my builder comfort zone

I'll try to play some turns tonight

 

[coanda]

The single biggest piece of advice I'd make for a war (particularly an early one) is to commit to it and be fast. Prioritize the tech. Chop freely. Stack whip unhappiness. You want to very quickly put together a force that can smash some AI cities, and if your offensive momentum stalls out that's usually the time to look for a 10-turn or permanent peace deal. Newer players sometimes start out by slowly building a handful of units, half-heartedly raiding an enemy, and getting bogged down in a 30, 40, 50-turn war; you don't want that. You want a fast knockout blow, before they can whip a lot of extra units or research tech for better defenders, and it's okay if your own economy is temporarily crippled by the cost of preparing so quickly.

And yes, the fogbusting limit also includes shroud. Normal barb spawns can't be put on any tile that has any unit within x-2,y-2 to x+2,y+2 of the location. Although if you play with events enabled, I believe some of the custom barbarian spawn events don't respect that limit.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, if going HA attack you may not need more cities at this point. You have a couple of spots to settle nearby so maybe at least one of those spots can be plopped down now to get it going in time for some unit production. I'd think about getting a chariot out soonish to do some scouting (mainly your target) and barb protection. Maths is okay, but I'd get the HAs online asap.

 

[MrBungler]

Spoiler T77 :

• Plopped Nuremberg
• Aachen, Prague, and Vienna have granary + barracks, have been allowed to grow
• :edit: What about stables?
• road network built
• scouted Lincoln a bit, so much jungle
• Shaka is top of the heap, kind of want to cut him down
• chariot ready to scout shaka, worker to build road to shaka
• Archery + HR finished, 3 biggest cities all focused on HAs, Nuremberg will join shortly

 

[sampsa]

What about stables?

Stables for HA-rushes: my rule is 0-1. I'm not sure if you needed 3 barracks either with a non-AGG leader. Depends on the timing. What you need is some tougher guys for first few fights, the rest is taking out wounded opponents. 0xp HAs are pretty good units that level up faster, which is also handy for healing. Even chariots can take out wounded opponents, grab workers and so on.

Shaka is top of the heap, kind of want to cut him down

Remember that he has a spear UU. I mean I'm sure you can do it, but suffer more losses than if you take out some wuss like Lincoln.

 

[konata_LS]

HBR and Maths before T77 - the situation looks really good . OP has received excellent advice from some top players .

challenge accepted, will take me out of my builder comfort zone

Playing a peaceful builder game is certainly an option, but the option is probably not very doable in this game. If your neighbours were Hatshepsut and Lincoln, the peaceful expansion, settling the two islands, and chopping GLH would definitely be interesting and fun. Unfortunately your neighbour up north is not Hatshepsut; he's Shaka.

If I see correctly your second screenshot at #80, Shaka already had Copper or Iron (a Zulu Axeman standing on a gold mine in the north of Prague, marked by the orange circle):

Spoiler Does Shaka have Axe..? :

So, even if you want to play a peaceful builder game, AI Shaka with metal would probably keep attacking you. Though I understand stepping out of one's comfort zone may cause some stress or anxiety.

I mean I'm sure you can do it, but suffer more losses than if you take out some wuss like Lincoln.

Yes, attacking Lincoln would suffer less losses than attacking Shaka, but OP's screenshots shows that Shaka might be a better target. Lincoln's land has too much jungle, which means all the captured cities from Lincoln will need IW or even calendar to contribute to the economy. Not to mention the numerous worker turns to clean these jungle tiles. OTOH, Shaka is in the north of tropical area and has some nice flood plains + forests. If OP launches an attack against Shaka, the risk of getting dogpiled by Lincoln is very low; in the opposite situation however, when OP attacks Lincoln, the danger of getting dogpiled by Shaka is much higher.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

I’d go for Lincoln first on the basis that he’s as squishy as they come and then use the capture gold to get to construction to elephant/catapult Shaka and probably the rest of them if that’s the game you want to play. I don’t think there’s much risk of Shaka getting bribed on you if you attack Lincoln because I suspect he hates Lincoln too much to accept the bribe and it would also require one of them to have alphabet by the time you attack which is perhaps unlikely on monarch - not sure. He could start plotting but you can deal with that as and when. It should be straightforward to get out of a war with Lincoln to defend from Shaka - if necessary - because Lincoln is such a pussycat.

I’d also add that from a learning perspective, attacking Lincoln makes more sense. You wouldn’t try to horse archer rush Shaka with metal on higher levels unless the other options were even more desperate. Lincoln on the other hand can be quite inviting even on deity.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, the worry of getting bribed on is not very real, nor a disaster even if it happens. I'd start from Lincoln and if it goes swiftly, move to the next target. Lincoln has 3 cities and while it's true one of his cities is jungled, the capital never is.

 

[MrBungler]

thanks sampsa and Mr_Trotsky, I'm sold on Lincoln first. I'll scout his other cities and start making battle plans

Does Shaka have Axe..?

Yes and he's been parading it all over me for a dozen turns

 

[MrBungler]

What about promotions for HAs? How should I be buffing my veterans?

 

[coanda]

Horse Archers want combat promos. Numidian Cavalry might want Flanking - I've seen people pushing numbers back and forth there and am unsure which is truly better. But generic HAs, who don't get to skip flanking I and move straight to flanking II, definitely combat.

 

[sampsa]

Also, try to get a sentry chariot to gain better visibility. Flanking1-sentry promos.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

And perhaps one combat 1 shock guy to fight any spears.

It’s also instructive to see generally why you don’t need more than one, namely that, often, if you select the shock guy, you’re offered the archer and get zero vale from the promotion.

A more general point is to avoid promoting until you need to - ie you’re about to attack or be attacked. That way you give yourself the best chance of having the most appropriately promoted unit.

 

[MrBungler]

Spoiler T81 :

• 8 HAs: 5 on Lincoln's border, 3 a turn or more away
• 4 cities still building HAs; @Mr_Trotsky I see the reason in building a shock troop, but unfortunately, no metal
• New York currently defended by an archer and a scout
• Philadelphia, spearman and archer
• Washington, archer + axeman in the field
• 4th city unseen, probably NE of Washington

 

[Peteyboy]

@Mr_Trotsky I see the reason in building a shock troop, but unfortunately, no metal

I think he is referring to the promotion - Whilst as you say you don't have access to Axemen - HA with Shock promotion will do a half decent job.

Sometimes with pure HAs I'd go for the capital, with how you're setup and the 3 coming - I'd be keen to start the war straight-away and squash NY, with a bit of luck 3 HA attacks should win (if unlucky 4, if lucky 2) - You always have chariot should an axeman come close or to finish a weak unit off. Then roll on to the capital (But might get out 2 more units whipping before you arrive....)

However, a few turns back, I probably would have planned / setup slightly differently going 3NW of Washington with most the HAs (Perhaps still time to do this.) that way upon DOW you'll be 1 square away from capital, and only time for 1 whip - Should be a comfortable capture. Then move onto cities with lower pops i.e less whipping (and possibly disconnected from copper.)

Given NY is such a poor city at this stage it carries little value, plus with low food growth, won't grow quickly for whipping, and you can capture a little later. Sometimes it can be frustrating with a 6 pop capital where 2-3 spears get popped and your attack falls flat.

Re Promotions, I think only Numidian do I go mass flanking (let's be honest they don't have much else going for them if not, albeit 50% W/D chance is very handy.)

 

[danjuno]

I'm interested to see what that Barb city has, once you're done stomping Lincoln.

 

[MrBungler]

referring to the promotion

ah that makes sense

going 3NW of Washington

also makes sense, I'll change focus to hit Washington first

interested to see what that Barb city

me too

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

I don’t think I’d target Washington first and certainly not unless you’re going to reload and go back a few turns to do it. As I understand it, you can hit NY now with only an archer and a scout defending it. You can then potentially hit Washington three turns later - annoyingly the river, forest and jungle slow you down a lot - presumably with some of the three HAs that aren’t yet in range.

However, to hit Washington from where your stack is now, you’d have to move three turns to get in position (3NW of Washington) and then, once you declare, you need two turns to hit Washington and three if you want to avoid attacking across the river. Attacking from where you are means hitting Washington on probably the same turn - having already taken New York - and with much easier access for your reinforcements and no river to cross. The only advantage you really have with going for Washington first is that Lincoln has less time to build units in Washington. But, given you can’t attack the turn you declare, that’s a risk anyway.

I’m not sure if it’ll play out this way - partly because I don’t understand how the culture fixes after city captures - but by attacking New York it may be possible to get to Washington via the forest 1S of the marble without delaying the attack. The advantage with this is that it threatens Philadelphia too which often causes the AI to panic and start shuffling units allowing you to attack them in the open.

If you go back a few turns so you start stacking 3NW of Washington, I find it easier to see how it could be attractive. You don’t delay the attack by as much - although you still have further to travel when stacking - and you can get his capital and metal early on. I’d still prefer to go via NY though because, if things go badly with the RNG, it’s much easier to reinforce. I wouldn’t be too worried about a few metal units - one or two more won’t make much difference. You’ll take Washington early in the war either way.