Should a person be proud of their ethnicity?

[metalhead]

I take nothing for granted, but I'm not going to take part in the pointless exercise of engaging with someone who is lecturing me about my own country from a place of total, and seemingly willful, ignorance.

Every sentence of your long post was founded on a faulty premise, due to that ignorance. I'm not going to pick through them and then have to deal with ridiculous stubborn replies about how you know better based solely on the view of our country you have from your parents' basement. No thanks.

 

[Akka]

I take nothing for granted, but I'm not going to engage in the absolutely insane exercise of being lectured about my own country from someone who has never even been here.

You don't even realize the irony of what you're saying ?
You don't notice that's exactly what you've been doing ? "you should do that, Europe is like that" ? When has this "insane exercice of lecturing people about their own country" has EVER stopped you ?

It seems if some provincialist American who thinks the whole world works like at home give lessons to others and tell them they should take example on the success story of the US, it's okay, but if others dare to do the opposite (based on actual statistics), then it's an outrage ?
Man, open your eyes.

(oh, and actually, I went twice to the USA. I'm just not dumb enough to believe that having spent a few weeks in a country makes me an expert about it. Statistics, however, tell a pretty significant tale)

 

[Kyriakos]

^Then again, Akka, it isn't as if UK/France (not sure, but maybe even Germany, though i doubt it somewhat) are as "non racist" as Hungary or baltic/Slovakia/Slovenia or Finland mayhem. Some Eu countries are very obviously racist, and there is no two ways about it.

 

[Lexicus]

^Then again, Akka, it isn't as if UK/France (not sure, but maybe even Germany, though i doubt it somewhat) are as "non racist" as Hungary or baltic/Slovakia/Slovenia or Finland mayhem. Some Eu countries are very obviously racist, and there is no two ways about it.

France is among the most racist. The supposedly liberal President claimed that African women reproduce too much and that Africa has a "civilization" problem. If Donald Trump had said this you'd be able to hear the screeching of liberals all the way over there in Europe, but they line up to cape for Macron.

 

[Akka]

^Then again, Akka, it isn't as if UK/France (not sure, but maybe even Germany, though i doubt it somewhat) are as "non racist" as Hungary or baltic/Slovakia/Slovenia or Finland mayhem. Some Eu countries are very obviously racist, and there is no two ways about it.

Obviously. Every country in the world has racism (even *GASP* non-white countries).
Eastern Europe is heavily racist - though Eastern Europe also has a lot of catch-up to do after spending 50 years under the USSR yoke, so I cut them some slack - which is the reason why I use WESTERN Europe as comparison.
Even Western Europe has racism in it obviously - but when someone from the country who has the biggest racial tensions in the Western world starts to give lecture about immigration and judge how other cultures deserve to die and how we should mimick them as if they were better, yeah there is some heavy need to call them on their BS.

 

[Kyriakos]

France is among the most racist. The supposedly liberal President claimed that African women reproduce too much and that Africa has a "civilization" problem. If Donald Trump had said this you'd be able to hear the screeching of liberals all the way over there in Europe, but they line up to cape for Macron.

Wow.
Well, i never supported Macron. I wanted Melenchon, the leftist, to win. Another missed opportunity for change for the better.

 

[Lexicus]

I wanted Melenchon, the leftist, to win

You and me both

 

[Akka]

I take nothing for granted, but I'm not going to take part in the pointless exercise of engaging with someone who is lecturing me about my own country from a place of total, and seemingly willful, ignorance.

This sentence has just become even more ironic that it was before

 

[civver_764]

France is among the most racist. The supposedly liberal President claimed that African women reproduce too much and that Africa has a "civilization" problem.

Those are true statements. You don't think people should be allowed to point these things out?

 

[Borachio]

What? That France is a racist country?

I suppose it might be. But it seemed quite a nice place when I went there.

Not a lot of anti-English sentiment in evidence as far as I could see.

Despite them having very good reason for it.

 

[Akka]

Not a lot of anti-English sentiment in evidence as far as I could see.

Amusingly, England is historically and culturally our oldest and worst foe
Amiable France-UK relations are a very, very recent thing, and pretty contrary to most what happened in the near-millenium before.

I nearly feel ashamed at the lack of nationalist rudeness toward a member of the Perfide Albion. Traditions are being lost

 

[Lexicus]

I nearly feel ashamed at the lack of nationalist rudeness toward a member of the Perfide Albion. Traditions are being lost

This is urgent. call Macron's office and demand that he throw a slighting reference to the "nation of shopkeepers" in his next speech!

 

[Borachio]

I have just one word for you, Mr @Akka: Agincourt.

And Waterloo.

I have just two words for you: Agincourt and Waterloo. And...

.

 

[Akka]

I have just one word for you, Mr @Akka: Agincourt.

And Waterloo.

I have just two words for you: Agincourt and Waterloo. And...

Castillon ?
Notwithstanding that England's Kings at the time were yet more French than English (what with them speaking French, having most of their wealth in France and actually trying to get the kingdom of France for themselves), the fact is, we won in the end
(and yeah, Waterloo, but you had to take the whole rest of Europe plus Russian winter to win, so really it doesn't count)

(and this conversation is amusingly fitting with the title of the thread )

 

[warpus]

I'm confused.

Did I choose to be born what I am?

And if I didn't why would I be proud of it?

It doesn't make any sense to be proud of your ethnicity.

But it does make sense to be proud of the accomplishments of your ancestors and the society they were a part of. This goes the other way too, I think it also makes sense to be ashamed of their crimes. Whether you like it or not, you will forever be associated with them, even if they are long dead.

 

[Akka]

At the risk of being a broken record, it's simply tribalism. We're biologically wired to feel part of a group and takes both pride and shame from this group.
You don't need to look farther than close family - most people are proud of what their father or mother did (if it was glorious) or ashamed (if it was despicable) despite having no choice nor influence on what happened before their birth.

Every single frigging social construct in the world is based on this, for good or ill. Esprit de corps, corporate mentality, nationalism, sport teams, identity politics, family, internet forums, gaming communities, hobby club, whatever.
Of course there is, as always, a large amount of personal and groups variations, but unless someone has vested interest into putting his head in the sand about it, it's just massively obvious.
We are social animals, and the definition of social is being part of a group.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It doesn't make any sense to be proud of your ethnicity.

But it does make sense to be proud of the accomplishments of your ancestors and the society they were a part of. This goes the other way too, I think it also makes sense to be ashamed of their crimes. Whether you like it or not, you will forever be associated with them, even if they are long dead.

I have no problem acknowledging the shameful parts of Canada's history. But asking me to feel personal shame is going too far. I'm not the one who made those decisions, or took the reprehensible actions. I wasn't even born (or at least I was very young and therefore could do nothing about it) when most of it happened. So why should I feel ashamed?

 

[Lexicus]

So why should I feel ashamed?

If you feel proud of anything your ancestors have done, there's your answer.

 

[warpus]

I didn't say "personal shame" though. I feel no personal shame just because my Polish ancestors did some bad things. But I do think that it reflects bad on Polish culture as a whole, and so there is an element of shame there that's important (IMO) in moving in a better direction going forward.

Do I feel any shame when it comes to the bad things the Canadian government has done in the past? A bit perhaps, since I am now a Canadian citizen, and their past actions reflect badly on all of us. But it is a sort of residual shame, a bit of a reminder that we can do better. I'm an immigrant here so these dynamics are a bit different, when you compare them to for instance things that affected my ancestors directly.

 

[metalhead]

You don't even realize the irony of what you're saying ?
You don't notice that's exactly what you've been doing ? "you should do that, Europe is like that" ? When has this "insane exercice of lecturing people about their own country" has EVER stopped you ?

It seems if some provincialist American who thinks the whole world works like at home give lessons to others and tell them they should take example on the success story of the US, it's okay, but if others dare to do the opposite (based on actual statistics), then it's an outrage ?
Man, open your eyes.

(oh, and actually, I went twice to the USA. I'm just not dumb enough to believe that having spent a few weeks in a country makes me an expert about it. Statistics, however, tell a pretty significant tale)

Sigh. You really are a simple creature. I'm merely taking your own view of your country, as you're talking about it. I offer no opinions; you're the one so worried about your "culture," and how a few million Muslims are going to destroy it forever, or whatever silly fear you have. That's not me talking, that's you talking. I've talked to Germans who feel the same way about Germany. Needless to say, it's an opinion that at least appears to be shared across Western Europe, though I'm not sure how widely.

Statistics about police killings aren't even that relevant to the issue, and you want to use them as the only word on the subject. That's stupid. No really, that's about as idiotically simplistic an argument as I've ever seen. There are hundreds of examples of immigrant communities - many even nonwhite! - being successfuly integrated into our society. But you wouldn't know anything about that, and you wouldn't care to listen to it if someone tried to tell you about it. I have no doubt there are examples in European countries as well, but I wouldn't know it the way you and others talk about "protecting our culture."