Should I assume she doesn't like me and just move on?

That's fine.

But you should still ask her, rather than just "assuming", then you'll know for sure. And also get some experience in being rejected. And the next time will be even worse....

No, hang on. Take no notice of me.

Yeah, this; I'm worried he's going to take the wrong message away from this experience. Which is to say:

DO: use your words and ask a girl out if you like her.

DON'T: mope around ignoring a girl for 4 months and then give up when she starts giving you the cold shoulder.

DO: create a friendly flirty relationship with someone before making your move. I wouldn't say "dating your friends" is exactly the correct way to do it, but "dating your acquaintances" is.

DON'T: play a long game of establishing yourself as nothing more than a friend (or from the sounds of it in this case, an occasional acquaintance) for months on end without giving her ANY indication whatsoever that you were in any way interested in her.

DO: learn that rejection is going to happen. It's a part of life, and I know, it sucks. But really that suckiness comes from spending months on end building it up in your mind. By spending all this time wondering how she feels about you and not knowing you're building an anticipation up in your mind. You REALLY want this thing; you NEED it; you will be deeply hurt if it doesn't happen. This creates a vicious cycle: the more you build it up, the harder it is to work up the courage to ask her out, the less likely it is to happen in reality.

What's more the whole avoiding asking her out creates a further problem. The problem of "would this actually be a good fit for me?" I would say the biggest problem young guys make when they're just starting to get into dating is they never ask themselves this question. They fixate on the first girl who smiles demurely at them and pursue her to the ends of the Earth without really considering who she is as a person, whether they are in a right state of mind to even be in a relationship, or if they're at all compatible beyond physical attraction. So you pursue this girl. You get her. Great! You last for four months before realizing you guys have nothing in common: you love baseball and cartoons and Halo and she thinks sports are a stupid waste of time, cartoons are for kids and manbabies, and she's never held a controller in her life! Meanwhile she loves Catcher in the Rye, camping, and the Bachelor, and you find Salinger a pretentious buffoon, think sitting in a tent cold and miserable and without the modern amenities is an affront to all those forebears who had no choice but to do so, and find sappy reality TV shows a pointless waste of time.

Now I'm not saying make a side-by-side list collated from everything you can find out about her on facebook and try to make an logical, robotic decision about whether you are X% of a match which falls above some threshold of acceptable compatibility. I'm saying have some actual goddamn conversations with her. Find out what she's like, what her interests are and if she has anything in common with you. Hey, you know what's a REALLY good way to do that? Asking her if she'd like to go grab some coffee or a meal with you sometime in a 1-on-1 setting that allows you to really get a feel for each other and figure out if you work in any sort of a non-fantasyland.

That's what dating's all about, really. It's about interacting with someone you know on a really casual level and trying to get a sense for whether or not you'd work on a romantic level. The biggest error you can make is fixating on one person and convincing yourself that that person is the one and only person for you - that the first date is some dramatic first day of the rest of your lives together, that once you get over that first terrifying hurdle of *gasp* telling a girl how you feel everything else is ezpz.

It's not! You know nothing about this girl! This isn't some sick game of trick a girl into liking me by ticking boxes x, y, and z; this is a you trying to figure out if this girl is good for you. And if you find out she isn't (whether that be because she's not attracted to you and said no when you asked her out, or because on date #3 you found out about some horrible thing she does that's a terrible deal breaker) all the better for you! Now you can refocus your energies on finding someone that will work!

Man I don't know why my attempts at relationship advice always turn into these giant ramble-fests, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that asking girls out is hard because you're thinking of it as a big scary hurdle that you have to clear before you can get that thing you want (someone to do stuff with you and occasionally have sexytimes) rather than test #1 for you to see if you are compatible with this person. The main takeaway from any of this you should be making is to interact with the person, listen to what they say, get a feel for who they are, and ask yourself at every step of the way "would we work as a couple?". The worst thing you could do would you to listen to her and then try to mold and contort yourself mentally to try to fit the right shape you think the girl would want you to be (that is - don't tell yourself "Yeah I could be a vegetarian" when you were just telling your roommate that you would LITERALLY die without bacon). The important distinction to not here is that I'm talking about you on a personal level. I'm not talking about lying to her to get into her pants - obviously don't do that - no, I'm talking about not lying to yourself so you won't have to stop pursuing her. Convincing yourself you can make something work when it's obviously not going to work. Another example of doing this is convincing yourself that this one is perfect for you because she'll fix some perceived fault of yours. Like pursuing some social butterfly because you think you're too introverted and she'll get you out there talking to people. That's bs. It won't work. That's what people mean by "be yourself". Be honest with yourself.

The question you should always be asking is "will she work for me?" and not "will I work for her?" Whether or not you work for her is for her to decide. So let her worry about that. You do you.
 
What is the point of courting if to start one you need the girl to like you from the beginning? Many girls are not even sure as what to wear in the morning...
:dubious:

Courting someone who doesn't like you isn't going to be very successful.

If a woman needs some wooing period of many weeks or months before she's "ready" to be physical the sex isn't going to be worth it anyway. And imagine what a marriage to such a woman will be like. This isn't the 1800's.
Maybe the women you know in RL are ready to be physical right away, but most aren't, or at least I hope they're not, since that shows a lack of critical thinking. Part of what a sensible woman (and teenage girl) should be thinking about are the potential consequences if whatever birth control method being used fails to work correctly.

Depends on where you're from, in a lot of places "dating" doesn't really happen and "hooking up" with members of the opposite sex from your friends circle is what is more common. This then leads to relationships and so on.

But yeah, I think here in North America trying to "date" your friends is going to be a challenging proposition for most..
In my case, it attracted a lot of "Hey, they've been friends all this time and now they're dating, are they gonna be a couple?" And next thing you know, two sets of friends and my mother are speculating about cohabitation/wedding plans. To this day we're still friends - have been since high school. I haven't seen him in nearly 20 years, but we've stayed in touch via email and Facebook. I wish him well, and if that includes being married with kids, that's great. Somebody once asked me if I'd be angry if he'd gotten married in the meantime, and why should I - we had no claims on each other, and one of my primary life rules is that I will absolutely NEVER intrude on another person's committed relationship. Seeing all the fallout from that with my parents' and other relatives' marriages/divorces taught me that lesson.

Arithmetic does not work with women. After first no you try art, not science. Start with shoes and end up with humor, poems, and guitar songs:
Then explain to me why some of the best dates I was ever on included a telescope, dark sky with no light pollution, and a meteor shower. Shoes were never part of it. Humor, poems, and music? Yeah, except the music was a dulcimer, instead of a guitar.

Part of the reason you should try to be at least friendly with a woman (if not actual friends) before asking her out is to find out what she's interested in.

Friendship between male and female is possible only if everything else is ALREADY impossible.:old:
:dubious: :dubious: :dubious:

If I didn't want to move on, why would I be even asking here if I should do that?:confused::confused::confused: I'm perfectly willing and ready to move on if there's really very little chance that she likes me based off the evidence I provided. I posted here to simply confirm that it is indeed the case that she most likely isn't interested, in which case I can stop fooling myself thinking that i have a chance with her and get on with my life.
There have been various relationship threads posted on this forum over the years (always by guys; I have never noticed any personal ones posted by women, except for the "Ask a Girl" thread and the OP for that one is no longer on this forum), and they tend to always go the same way. I fully expect at least one person here to dismiss my opinions about what women want, because I'm a woman, and what do I know about it? :rolleyes:

My advice still stands: Ask her out for coffee, have a friendly conversation, and just plain ask her where she stands on this. You like her, but you'd like to know if she likes you. If the answer is yes, proceed from there. If the answer is no, then move on. It's possible she might change her mind in a year or two, but in the meantime you have a life to live, and so does she.

Every good endeavor always starts with no. Nothing that is worth holding in your hand will ever fall in those hands. You just have to work it out.
Life is not like a Star Trek movie in which success always follows the equivalent of "The word is 'no.' I am therefore going anyway." Sometimes 'no' really is the final word.
 
Reading that post took longer than my average relationship lasts.

:goodjob:

Even that (reading) still requires some effort. Why should courting be excluded from the lives of the modern people is beyond me.

And the saddest part is that most pundits here who advocate that winning over the women is a form of narcissism are either STILL single or already divorced (or have been in the open marriage nonsense). The only valid advice OP can get is from relatively happily married people who actually had solid positive experience with an opposite sex.
 
What do you know about talking to women, you've been married for what, twenty years?

And I assume he wants to have sex with her otherwise this thread would not be here. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with a woman. If you make yourself seem nonthreatening & like a non-sexual being a woman will respond in kind.

If a woman needs some wooing period of many weeks or months before she's "ready" to be physical the sex isn't going to be worth it anyway. And imagine what a marriage to such a woman will be like. This isn't the 1800's.
I actually know quite a lot about talking to women and how relationships work. I also know quite a lot about motivations and how they play into how we behave. Your motivations are pretty clear, but you need to keep in mind that not everyone else has the same motivation and goal as you. Your way of thinking may work quite well when you are focused on quickly you can get laid again. If that is our Opening poster's goal, then he should take your advice. I'm guessing that he is thinking differently than you about this girl, so your advice would be bad for him.

*****

One thing to keep in mind is that there are always two stories in a relationship and strong relationships can be built when the story lines come into sync. When a horny guys goes into a bar, he is looking for a horny gal and he is not usually looking for a girl who is looking for a father to her 3 kids. Courting is all about seeing if two story lines can be woven together. That process begins with "conversations". One of my son's girlfriends began their first conversation when she sent him this song:


Link to video.
 
Maybe the women you know in RL are ready to be physical right away, but most aren't, or at least I hope they're not, since that shows a lack of critical thinking.
In less than a month does not equal 'right away'.

If a girl doesn't sleep with me the first night, no biggie, I'd say 4-5 dates without any physicality is pretty odd though & I would be forced to assume she has some sexual issues if that happened (unless she's a virgin).

I know there's a meme 'He'll respect you more if you make him wait' but this has no basis in reality. If a woman sleeps with a man & he leaves her she blames the fact that she had sex, when it reality its probably the fact that the sex was lousy because she's using it as some sort of reward for the man instead of actually letting herself enjoy it.

Your motivations are pretty clear...
I think you're projecting what you think my goals are onto me.

Your way of thinking may work quite well when you are focused on quickly you can get laid again.
That's not my goal. If I just wanted easy sex I could pursue particularly venues &/or women who I've gotten sex from in the past. Sex in & of itself without much connection gets old quite quickly.

If that is our Opening poster's goal, then he should take your advice. I'm guessing that he is thinking differently than you about this girl, so your advice would be bad for him.
It sounds like he should stop thinking of her altogether, he's just making himself frustrated.

Courting is all about seeing if two story lines can be woven together. That process begins with "conversations". One of my son's girlfriends began their first conversation when she sent him this song:


Link to video.
She wants him to walk 500 miles for her?

I actually really liked that song back in the day, its one of the few CD's I actually bought back in the early 90's.
 
Courting is all about seeing if two story lines can be woven together. That process begins with "conversations". One of my son's girlfriends began their first conversation when she sent him this song:


Link to video.
So how did it turn out - are they still together?

Interesting to see the original musicians. I've only ever seen the Doctor Who version:


Link to video.


I know there's a meme 'He'll respect you more if you make him wait' but this has no basis in reality. If a woman sleeps with a man & he leaves her she blames the fact that she had sex, when it reality its probably the fact that the sex was lousy because she's using it as some sort of reward for the man instead of actually letting herself enjoy it.
So it's absolutely an urban legend that if a girl or woman is willing to jump right into bed on the first or second date, the guys gossip about her and she's labeled as "easy" and her reputation suffers with both male and female peers? :huh:


She wants him to walk 500 miles for her?

I actually really liked that song back in the day, its one of the few CD's I actually bought back in the early 90's.
Isn't he just saying he'd be willing to do that? Kinda like climbing the highest mountain, swimming the widest ocean, etc.?

It's the modern equivalent of the quests the knights were always blathering about in their courtly love poems, back in the Middle Ages. Nobody really expects the guy to do that.
 
So it's absolutely an urban legend that if a girl or woman is willing to jump right into bed on the first or second date, the guys gossip about her and she's labeled as "easy" and her reputation suffers with both male and female peers? :huh:
Of course people will judge but basing your life on what busy bodies will think is no way to live. Like salt n Pepa said it's none of they're business. Judging a woman for having sex is pretty old fashioned and hopefully will slowly but surely go out of popular fashion.
 
Of course people will judge but basing your life on what busy bodies will think is no way to live. Like salt n Pepa said it's none of they're business. Judging a woman for having sex is pretty old fashioned and hopefully will slowly but surely go out of popular fashion.

As, hopefully, so dies the expectation that a woman must spread 'em to be interesting enough to court, should she prefer to refrain from mating until in a longer term relationship. Eh?
 
So how did it turn out - are they still together?

Interesting to see the original musicians. I've only ever seen the Doctor Who version:
IIRC that was about 10 years ago and they were together for three. They are still friends. ATM my son has a fabulous girlfriend he should marry tomorrow, but it is not my place....
 
She wants him to walk 500 miles for her?

I actually really liked that song back in the day, its one of the few CD's I actually bought back in the early 90's.
You have to reverse the genders obviously. It is a courting song that says "I like you a lot. Take notice and lets have a conversation."
 
If I didn't want to move on, why would I be even asking here if I should do that?:confused::confused::confused: I'm perfectly willing and ready to move on if there's really very little chance that she likes me based off the evidence I provided. I posted here to simply confirm that it is indeed the case that she most likely isn't interested, in which case I can stop fooling myself thinking that i have a chance with her and get on with my life.


Make a pass at her.

She will shoot you down.

But make the pass at her because it is what you need to do to grow as a person. As you say, you can't have this hanging over your head so making the pass and getting shot down will allow you to do that.

Additionally, making the pass is good practice. You've been carrying a torch for her for months, maybe a whole year. That's not a good way to handle interpersonal relationships. You will eventually need to take the initiative in some social situation in the future so practice now with someone you already know a bit.

Make the pass. Get shot down. Go out and get drunk with your buddies. The next morning, as you fight through your hang over, grab your balls.

They just dropped.

Then consider seeing a therapist.
 
Make a pass at her.

She will shoot you down.

But make the pass at her because it is what you need to do to grow as a person. As you say, you can't have this hanging over your head so making the pass and getting shot down will allow you to do that.

Additionally, making the pass is good practice. You've been carrying a torch for her for months, maybe a whole year. That's not a good way to handle interpersonal relationships. You will eventually need to take the initiative in some social situation in the future so practice now with someone you already know a bit.

Make the pass. Get shot down. Go out and get drunk with your buddies. The next morning, as you fight through your hang over, grab your balls.

They just dropped.

Then consider seeing a therapist.

:lol:

+1

It's hard to overstate how much of growing into yourself as a comfortable adult actually revolves around bucking up and doing things that you're relatively certain are going to be significantly unpleasant in order to produce a result that is only possibly desirable.
 
You have to reverse the genders obviously. It is a courting song that says "I like you a lot. Take notice and lets have a conversation."

My courting song would go a bit more like:

But I would walk a kilometer
And I would walk maybe a block more
Just to be the man who walked not quite a mile
To casually arrive at your door
When I'm working yes I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's working hard for me
And when the money comes in for the work I'll do
I'll pass some pennies on to you although I realize you are an independent woman
When I come home yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who comes back home to you
And if I grow old well I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's growing old with you or who knows, maybe it will be you but it's cool if it's not, s&%$! happens
 
Reading that post took longer than my average relationship lasts.

:D

I read a fair amount of it and there is some really good stuff there but finally I just said to myself...

DO stop reading this.

DON'T keep reading it.

Then I read your post and had a laugh. :goodjob:
 
So it's absolutely an urban legend that if a girl or woman is willing to jump right into bed on the first or second date, the guys gossip about her and she's labeled as "easy" and her reputation suffers with both male and female peers?

No, there are tons of guys out there like that. The problem with a lot of these conversations is that everyone has differing opinions and motives for why they feel the way they do. There are still retrograde asshats who think men and women are so different that women shouldnt be sexually liberated like men because "thats just how men are". Naturalistic fallacies are perhaps the most infuriating generalizations in conversations about relationships.


If someone wanted to have sex with me the first date, I'd think they're just like me and wanna share the joy of physical intimacy with someone else. But if not then thats fine too.

Maybe the women you know in RL are ready to be physical right away, but most aren't, or at least I hope they're not, since that shows a lack of critical thinking. Part of what a sensible woman (and teenage girl) should be thinking about are the potential consequences if whatever birth control method being used fails to work correctly.

And if they weigh that and still want to be physical right away are they lacking in critical thinking ability? As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time ruminating on my own metacognition, there are times where you do the risk assessment and still think "Ya know what, I'm DTF tonight"
 
My courting song would go a bit more like:

But I would walk a kilometer
And I would walk maybe a block more
Just to be the man who walked not quite a mile
To casually arrive at your door
When I'm working yes I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's working hard for me
And when the money comes in for the work I'll do
I'll pass some pennies on to you although I realize you are an independent woman
When I come home yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who comes back home to you
And if I grow old well I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's growing old with you or who knows, maybe it will be you but it's cool if it's not, s&%$! happens

:lol: You're still single right? Now we know why, ;)

Spoiler :
Now if you applied that catchy writing ability to actually looking for a great girl, you might get lucky...
 
My courting song would go a bit more like:

But I would walk a kilometer
And I would walk maybe a block more
Just to be the man who walked not quite a mile
To casually arrive at your door
When I'm working yes I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's working hard for me
And when the money comes in for the work I'll do
I'll pass some pennies on to you although I realize you are an independent woman
When I come home yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who comes back home to you
And if I grow old well I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's growing old with you or who knows, maybe it will be you but it's cool if it's not, s&%$! happens
:lol:

But come to think of it, isn't a kilometre and maybe one extra block a little modest for somebody who just climbed a bunch of mountains in Norway and literally jumped into a river? :p

And if they weigh that and still want to be physical right away are they lacking in critical thinking ability? As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time ruminating on my own metacognition, there are times where you do the risk assessment and still think "Ya know what, I'm DTF tonight"
The critical thinking to which I'm referring goes like this: "If the birth control method we're using should happen to fail, is this a man who can be counted on to take responsibility for his share of supporting the resulting baby," or if the woman doesn't want to have/raise a baby, "is this a man who would support my decision to abort or put the baby up for adoption"?

If the answer is "yes," then fine. If the answer is "no," then it's not a good idea. Usually this sort of character trait isn't something that can be discerned so early in a relationship.
 
<delete>
 
It's been too long without significant activity on your end... next.

Make a pass at her.

She will shoot you down.

But make the pass at her because it is what you need to do to grow as a person. As you say, you can't have this hanging over your head so making the pass and getting shot down will allow you to do that.

Additionally, making the pass is good practice. You've been carrying a torch for her for months, maybe a whole year. That's not a good way to handle interpersonal relationships. You will eventually need to take the initiative in some social situation in the future so practice now with someone you already know a bit.

Make the pass. Get shot down. Go out and get drunk with your buddies. The next morning, as you fight through your hang over, grab your balls.

They just dropped.

Then consider seeing a therapist.

Most of this is good advice, but again, try the next person, not this one.

Yeah, ask her out, and if she says no, that means it ain't going to happen. If she gives you an iffy answer, you can try again. Continually getting "no" for an answer and trying to fight to change that "no" into a "yes" only works in movies, and usually only in movies in which the protagonist is good looking. In real life it's usually going to lead to problems.

re: "the one"

See Mark Corrigan from Peep Show. He'd obsess over every girl he had the slightest attraction to as being "the one".. even before they even talked. That's the issue. Ignore this "the one" nonsense.

Putting the woman on the pedestal is just going to lead to disaster later, Tigranes.

He can't move on, and doesn't want to.
That's the problem.

I won't argue that point, but (especially in this situation) I would say that it is more a matter of being less needy, and you offering more value instead. It sounds like you are needing her to like you back. How would that make her feel? Instead you need to offer her someone she can talk to, someone she can walk to her car with at night, chivalry, support for getting through your classes--and do all that unconditionally. Now you make yourself more attractive, and not just to her. More importantly, you make YOU a better man. And that, in the end, will serve you better than she ever will, no matter how awesome she is.
No, just no.
Reread Perfection's post; it is on the mark.
Not so much on the mark but in a good direction.

As for more in-depth advice, I would just re-read everything Owen has said here. Top notch stuff, that.
Not really. It's quite wrong, although not flat wrong like tetley's post is.
 
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