Should it be harder for Asians to get into good schools?

[Murky]

If we're going for social equality, acting at the college entrance level is way too late. All our children (regardless of social class) deserve to have the same educational opportunities as everyone else starting at an early age. We need to expand programs for the youngest students. This means more funding and more openings for programs like Head Start. We also need to make sure that the kids are getting good nutrition both in and out of school because a tired/malnourished child makes a poor student.

 

[aelf]

What? No, the athlete example was just an analogy to demonstrate my belief that poor kids should receive help that would make it easier for them win an honest competition, rather than just be declared to have won.

Also, "no one left behind" policies are idiotic. If we want to help low-income kids - a noble and necessary pursuit - they need to be competing against other low-income kids - and the winners be given a stipend, transfer to top-grade school or whatever we can think of. The losers... well, there are still lousy jobs robots aren't doing.

Not a bad idea. It seemed like you were suggesting that the school system be 100% 'meritocratic' and not take into account socio-economic background.

Well, what do you suggest? I am doubtful that without such value system, free university places for them are going to be of much benefit to anyone. Sadly.

I don't think university places are "free" in affirmative action anyway. There's still a standard that the students must achieve. It's just significantly lower.

If we're going for social equality, acting at the college entrance level is way too late. All our children (regardless of social class) deserve to have the same educational opportunities as everyone else starting at an early age. We need to expand programs for the youngest students. This means more funding and more openings for programs like Head Start. We also need to make sure that the kids are getting good nutrition both in and out of school because a tired/malnourished child makes a poor student.

Of course. But even with the best programmes many students from less privileged backgrounds would still struggle to keep up with the best of those who have the resources at their disposal.

 

[civ_king]

So in your society poor people who don't have as much resources to throw at achieving academic excellence must either be more academically gifted than their privileged counterparts or be good athletes? How about those who grew up in home environments that don't impart to them the kind of value system necessary to succeed in school?

And this is why people are intentionally gimping Asians, because there is a cultural drive for academic excellence,

 

[JollyRoger]

If Asians are culturally driven for success, then getting into a slightly less ideal school shouldn't be a setback in the big scheme of things.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, their cultures tend to support the "hard work and practice will lead to success" idea, which doesn't work very well in leading to high levels of success that depend more on whom you know that what you know or on coming up with truly original ideas. (They are by no means incapable of these things, but an overly regimented culture does tend to discourage them.) The kind of pressure put on them would tend to make rejection from the best schools more painful, perhaps enough to increase the already high suicide rate.

 

[civ_king]

Well, their cultures tend to support the "hard work and practice will lead to success" idea, which doesn't work very well in leading to high levels of success that depend more on whom you know that what you know or on coming up with truly original ideas. (They are by no means incapable of these things, but an overly regimented culture does tend to discourage them.) The kind of pressure put on them would tend to make rejection from the best schools more painful, perhaps enough to increase the already high suicide rate.

That doesn't apply to South Asians, if I need a contact I'll dial into the aunty network. Indian culture is not regimented, it's highly syncretic and creative.

 

[JollyRoger]

Still, if your numbers are in the ballpark to get into Berkeley and you don't make the cut, you are very likely still going to get into a very good California school. If that pushes one to suicide, then there is something very wrong.

 

[madviking]

Still, if your numbers are in the ballpark to get into Berkeley and you don't make the cut, you are very likely still going to get into a very good California school. If that pushes one to suicide, then there is something very wrong.

Yea, one of the things opponents of AA kinda neglect is that there are A LOT A LOT A LOT of colleges. Even if *I* didn't get into UVa, there was always VPISU. Even though I would be less than thrilled to be there, at least I got into a decent place somewhere.

 

[JollyRoger]

And what is the fun of getting into an elite school if all the coeds are Asian gals studying too hard to have the full college experience?

 

[madviking]

And what is the fun of getting into an elite school if all the coeds are Asian gals studying too hard to have the full college experience?

I know right? They're totally ruining the cawlej atmosphere.

 

[JollyRoger]

My point is that diversity is part of the college experience. If you come from a background of all work and no play, it might be beneficial for you to see that you can still be successful while working a little less and playing a little more.

 

[amadeus]

Yea, one of the things opponents of AA kinda neglect is that there are A LOT A LOT A LOT of colleges.

So you don't need discrimination in acceptance, then.

 

[JollyRoger]

So you don't need discrimination in acceptance, then.

Correct, there is no need to discriminate based purely on GPA or test scores. The univeristy may want a diverse student body and can achieve that while safely knowing that the high SAT types that get left out will still get into another school that is equivalent or near-equivalent.

 

[Murky]

Correct, there is no need to discriminate based purely on GPA or test scores. The univeristy may want a diverse student body and can achieve that while safely knowing that the high SAT types that get left out will still get into another school that is equivalent or near-equivalent.

If the other schools are equivalent or near-equivalent why can't those with lower scores go there instead of forcing a top school to take less qualified candidates?

 

[JollyRoger]

If the other schools are equivalent or near-equivalent why can't those with lower scores go there instead of forcing a top school to take less qualified candidates?

I'm glad you brought up force as it is the top schools that are choosing the diversity path. Why force them to operate on pure GPA/test score merit, especially if there is not really any harm done to the marginal merit cases that end up at an equivalent or near-equivalent school?

 

[luiz]

I'm glad you brought up force as it is the top schools that are choosing the diversity path. Why force them to operate on pure GPA/test score merit, especially if there is not really any harm done to the marginal merit cases that end up at an equivalent or near-equivalent school?

That's actually entirely fine as long as they don't receive any public money. If private enitities want to be racist that's their (stupid) choice, but the government should be strictly color-blind and not endorse in anyway racist organizations, like universities that discriminate students based on their skin color.

Also, just to keep the habit of asking a question that supporters of racist AA always refuse to answer: how do we determine who is non-white and non-asian enough? Do we measure skulls? Noses? Run DNA tests? Use the "Third Reich Pocketbook for determining Races?". I once dated a girl who was half japanese, a quarter white and a quarter amerindian. Is she an oppressed minority in need of AA or a white-asian racial overlord that must be discriminated against?

 

[cybrxkhan]

Another problem with the model minority stereotype, I think, is that it's hard sometimes to distinguish between those Asians who are of average intelligence but study like crazy and do things just to look good on the college resume, and those Asians who are genuinely passionate and/or are pretty intelligent. On paper they might look pretty similar. So then a lot of the Asians who have much better potential - who aren't like conditioned semi-robots - get left out simply because they have the bad luck of looking like another silly studies-all-the-time-and-does-nothing-else Asian.


Ironically, though, from my experience a lot of Asian parents actually aren't that rough on their kids, even when it comes to grades - sure, they might expect As, but they probably aren't going to berate their kids about getting one B (actually I don't think any of the Asians I knew ever had to worry about their parents freaking over a B) and at worst just amiably encourage them to do better. Where I went to school, a lot of the Asian kids forced the high expectations on themselves, and it was they themselves and not their parents who were the angry and disappointed ones when they got 2 Bs on a report card; and a lot of them forced themselves to go into the hard sciences and engineering when some of them probably could have done a lot better elsewhere.

So ultimately I think for us Asians an important thing is sort of changing the stereotypes of the model minority, since I feel like we've sort of taken it and made it our own... in a bad way.

Also, just to keep the habit of asking a question that supporters of racist AA always refuse to answer: how do we determine who is non-white and non-asian enough? Do we measure skulls? Noses? Run DNA tests? Use the "Third Reich Pocketbook for determining Races?". I once dated a girl who was half japanese, a quarter white and a quarter amerindian. Is she an oppressed minority in need of AA or a white-asian racial overlord that must be discriminated against?

Actually there was an article somewhere a while back about how many part-Asian kids are listing their race as anything but Asian, in order to increase their chances of getting into better schools. It's sad.

 

[JollyRoger]

As a fairly obvious white male (though my huge penis size might throw the color blind measurers off track), I got affirmative action. I even got into law school ahead whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, etc. with higher undergraduate GPAs than me. I have no problem with race being a factor among several. I am interested in this nose measuring business though - which American universities have resorted to this that you know of? Do you consider it a flaw that they have not?

 

[aelf]

And what is the fun of getting into an elite school if all the coeds are Asian gals studying too hard to have the full college experience?

Nah, that doesn't mean they aren't a lot of fun if you get down to it.

 

[amadeus]

Correct, there is no need to discriminate based purely on GPA or test scores. The univeristy may want a diverse student body and can achieve that while safely knowing that the high SAT types that get left out will still get into another school that is equivalent or near-equivalent.

In the case of a fully privatized university, there's no harm in doing that because it's private property. Public schools, however, are supposed to be collectively owned and thus non-discriminatory in trivial factors such as race or sex.