Should it be harder for Asians to get into good schools?

[madviking]

The problem of affirmative action is that it never adresses why university's demographics match that of society at large.

A university is as much social as much as it is academic. It would make sense to try to achieve a sensible demographic balance for the social aspect.

Why should it?
University population should reflect the academic capacity of the people attending it, this may lead to a different share of "races" than in the wider community outide academic world.
We should not artificially force a specific demographic onto a meritocratic institution.

I went to a magnet school for high school where the school was effectively half white, half Asian. Yes, that demographic split represents the "academic capability" of the applicants, but surely you must find the lack of Hispanics and blacks at my high school appalling.

And as I said in a post I made earlier this thread, the difference in "quality" upon graduation between an aff-action class and a non-aff-action class is not statistically significant. Any deficiencies in the "academic capability" in the aff-action class is mitigated due to the fact that they're taking the same class at the university.

 

[warpus]

But it is MORE TRUE for black students.

It's also more true for students who have a higher tendency to play basketball in their free time.

However, it is FULLY TRUE for poor students.

 

[JollyRoger]

University population should reflect the academic capacity of the people attending it

Why? What if the University desires a mix that isn't pure merit?

 

[Narz]

Why? What if the University desires a mix that isn't pure merit?

Then that university deserves less respect & will get less respect.

 

[Murky]

Why? What if the University desires a mix that isn't pure merit?

This is what some private universities have been doing. They accept people on a first come, first serve basis. So long as you can pass a fairly simple entrance exam and can pay tuition(via student loans usually) you can get in.

The others would have to lower the bar quite a lot for it to work.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Most Asians that I know of (including myself), are firmly against affirmative action, but particularly when it limits the amount of Asians that can get in. The problem with the "Asian problem" - that is the model minority myth - is that there are still tons of Asians out there that are left out because of it, because while they still are excellent, aren't good enough compared to their even more excellent peers, and they sort of just fall behind. Apparently there's been many cases of the stress Asians get getting into their heads and causing them serious psychological issues, so it's not just something that happens in Asia.

That being said I can understand why people would want to limit the amount of Asians that get into universities, since so many of us feel like we have no choice but to get into the best universities as a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing. I mean having a 100% Asian university would be kind of weird. Still, it is precisely because of that those of us that don't get into the best universities... it kind of sucks. Because a lot of us who weren't at the top - we still worked pretty hard and did really well (relatively), yet just because we (barely) didn't live up to the ideal and stereotype of the model minority - which, again, Asians themselves sort of unwittingly encourage and made it take on a life of its own - we get left out. The model minority myth is really a bother, to summarize.

 

[Flying Pig]

It's also more true for students who have a higher tendency to play basketball in their free time.

Who are, incidentally, nearly all black.

 

[JollyRoger]

Then that university deserves less respect & will get less respect.

So UC Berkeley and Harvard and Yale do not get much respect?

 

[Flying Pig]

So UC Berkeley and Harvard and Yale do not get much respect?

I fail to see how 'deserves less respect' = 'does not get much respect' = 'will get less respect'

 

[JollyRoger]

I fail to see how 'deserves less respect' = 'does not get much respect' = 'will get less respect'

I fail to see how you missed my point.

 

[GoodGame]

If it's basically that there is some kind of affirmative action going on, then there's nothing to really gripe about on that---it's the law. I also think it's a bit of a fallacy to say there's a zero sum battle for positions in schools.

Overall, I feel that race should be irrelevant to most things in modern life. I don't see the purpose in advancing any sort of racism into modern social structure, regardless of intent. Society should just be fair and competitive by merit.

 

[.Shane.]

I'm not a huge fan of affirmative action in general but at least I can see the point in making university more accessible to poorer black & Hispanic students but I don't see any point in making it even harder for Asians than whites to get in.

Without taking a side in terms of is this good or bad, right or wrong, the simple fact is that when you have finite spaces if you favor 1 group, you inherently disfavor the others.

 

[Narz]

So UC Berkeley and Harvard and Yale do not get much respect?

Not as much as they would if they were totally merit-based.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Good US universities don't recruit just on merit anyway. Family and wealth count too

 

[.Shane.]

Not as much as they would if they were totally merit-based.

Not to speak for JR, but I think the point may be that this hasn't hurt them as they are all at the top of the list, year in, year out.

/shrug.

 

[aelf]

American unis sound like they have a damn good dating pool.

Asians just know how to play the exams game. They are not quite so successful at work, though that is in part because of actual racism.

 

[Murky]

American unis sound like they have a damn good dating pool.

Asians just know how to play the exams game. They are not quite so successful at work, though that is in part because of actual racism.

Well, I work at a Uni now. I have not noticed any particular bias/racism against Asians over other workers. It seems mostly merit based to me.

 

[aelf]

And that is supposed to be representative of the experience that most Asians have at the workplace or something?

Admittedly, I don't have any data right now. I remember reading an article that cited a study that supposedly looked at the representation of different races in higher levels of management. You could say that Asians don't possess enough merit to rise to those positions compared to white or even black workers, but the article also talks about how some Asians report being stereotyped as worker bees. The article was American, though.

 

[useless]

The problem is, that the term "Asian" applies to SO MANY people; From the Hmong, Pakistani's, Palestinians, Lebonese, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Iranians, Cambodians, Armenians...

You can't judge Asians as whole, and claim that they act in a certain way or achieve high schools, just because of a specific ethnicity's success in America (most notably the Chinese).

 

[aelf]

In America, 'Asians' seem to refer to East Asians, and they all seem to be regarded in pretty much the same way.

In the UK, 'Asians' usually refer to South Asians, while East Asians are either Chinese or Other. It's kind of ********, but that's how it is.