Should we vote for judges?

Should we vote for judges?


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downtown

Crafternoon Delight
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So election day is in a few days here in Illinois. In addition to finding a way to vote for Rick Santorum, I'm supposed to vote for a few local offices...my statehouse seat, and a bunch of judges.

There are three candidates running for judge in my area. All three went to competitive law schools. All three have significant legal experience. All three are of the same political party. I think it's fair to say that I'm a very politically informed person, and I have absolutely no idea how to judge (ha!) which of these three should be my local judge. I even asked two of the candidates that, and neither gave a particularly satisfying answer (deferring to endorsements? baaaah).

My neighborhood is dominated by recent immigrants and working class folks. I don't think very many people in our area have the background, or even the inclination, to determine between different judicial candidates. HOWEVER, our judges are now responsible to their communities for their decisions. If we could, as a community, determine that a guy sucked, it wouldn't be hard to get him out.

What do you think? Is there a value on being able to vote for judges, or should we leave that an appointed position?
 
No, we shouldn't vote for judges. People getting to pick whoever they think favours them short-term already craps up the Legislative and executive branches of government.
 
When Justices are appointed, they are certain to have the political prejudices of the executive who appoints them. Elected judges on the other hand, more closely reflect community standards.

Appointed Justices usually serve for life, so you're stuck with them even as society changes, and they get old and senile (RBG). Judges who are elected and serve terms can be removed if they become unacceptable to the community.
 
How do you, as a community, determine that he sucks? If he makes unpopular decisions? The law isn't about what is popular and what isn't, it's simply about what the law actually is. Elections distort the rule of law by bringing in extrinsic political factors that may influence a judge's interpretation of the law and their final decisions. Specifically, it's absolutely vile to have a system in which a judge may be influenced to apply the death penalty (though this obviously doesn't apply for all jurisdictions) or a life sentence for their own electoral gain. Similarly, electing public prosecutors who may seek the death penalty or a life sentence for their own public image is not a good idea.

Here's an extract from a fantastic book (The Justice Game) by prominent lawyer Geoffrey Robertson. It's mainly about the death penalty (only the bolded bit is actually very relevant, but the rest (which I've typed up and posted previously) is a good read too, so I won't delete that out), but gives you a sense of why political interference with the justice system is not a good idea:
It is one of the greatest ironies of our time that the nation to which the world looks for a lead on human rights should be so obsessed with inflicting the death penalty. It is hardly a cure for violent crimes - this escalates most strikingly in those states (notably Texas and Florida) which conduct most executions, variously by firing squad, hanging, gas chambers, electrocution, and lethal injection. No procedure is painless.

[...]

The death penalty does not deter murder. On the contrary, I believe that it tends to increase it by socially sanctioning violent revenge. America is an abiding testament to the objective futility of capital punishment: in the year Pratt and Morgan was decided, the country sustained 24 000 murders - a colossal level of deadly violence in a nation which believes that executions will have some effect on reducing it. All the executions in the US can have no conceivable impact other than to contribute to a culture in which violence is perceived as a solution, or at least as an exercise which achieves something. What it has achieved is a perversion of the values of lawyers: prosecutors demand the death penalty with more vigour (and hence more publicity for themselves) as their re-election nears; defenders advise their clients, despite their protestations of innocence, to cop pleas of 'guilty' to second-degree murder in order to avoid the risk of a death sentence; judges owe advancement to their record in refusing stays of execution. You cannot blame politicians for taking actions which court popularity - that is their raison d'etre - but the reason for the existence of courts is to stop those of their actions which infringe fundamental human rights. American judges, by permitting the execution of juveniles and mentally handicapped persons, have betrayed the very purpose of their office, which is to deny that the will of the people is the supreme law whenever that will inclines to barbarism.

The philosophical advance made by British judges through their decision in Pratt and Morgan was that murderers condemned to their death did not for that reason lose their quality as human beings. In legal terms, that a constitution guaranteeing fundamental rights to all citizens extended to those on death row as much as it did to those anywhere else: that the condemned prisoner no less than the terminally ill hospital patient is entitled to treatment which comports as much with dignity as their different circumstances allow. Is this capable of striking a transatlantic chord?

[...]

...criminology provided ample evidence that capital punishment does not reduce crime, and the briefest acquaintance with the American statistics proved that the death penalty is inflicted unequally, arbitrarily and especially on the poor and the black. But statistics can prove anything or nothing; even were it demonstrated that capital punishment had some deterrent effect, the transient and spiritually crippling satisfaction of revenge cannot justify the setting of a grisly example by a justice system which should be committed to promoting the values of humanity.

I am not opposed to summary execution, in cases of necessity: the gunning down of tyrants, and of armed robbers, hostage-takers and terrorists caught in the act. This is poetic justice, in the simple sense that it serves them right. The mistake is to use the legal system in an attempt to dignify killing by the state. This was Winston Churchill's point, in his much misunderstood argument that Nazi leaders should be taken out and shot rather than put through what he thought would be the charade of a trial at Nuremberg. He feared that any aping of legal proceedings would give them more dignity in their deaths than in their lives. It was the mistake the Rumanians made when they gave the Ceausescus the mockery of a trial before shooting them: it was necessary to kill them, to avoid their secret police rallying to their cause, but that was a practical political decision, not a just or legal one. The court-approved death penalty is wrong. And a system that is committed to the righting of wrongs cannot be used to perpetrate one.

Capital punishment incites vicious behaviour, not only in prisoners on death row, but in the officials charged with their execution. [...] Behind all the truculence and dishonesty of State officials lies a grim determination to kill - not merely as machines performing the dictates of the court, or as honest executors of the will of the people, but as human beings consumed by a positive wish to take other human life. The saddest thing is the sheer waste of energy on all sides. But in the final analysis there is no new argument to be raised against capital punishment. John Bright said it all in 1850: 'If you wish to teach the people to reverence human life, you must first show that you reverence it yourselves.'

But then, looking at how partisan your Supreme Court nominations are, that doesn't appear to be a good system either...

The trick I guess is to get a system of judicial appointments that aren't so politically influenced (but why are there 'conservative' and 'liberal' judges in the first place, when they are interpreting the very same laws in a supposedly objective manner)? But it's essentially axiomatic here that elected judges are a bad idea.

Appointed Justices usually serve for life, so you're stuck with them even as society changes, and they get old and senile (RBG). Judges who are elected and serve terms can be removed if they become unacceptable to the community.

In Australia, it is mandatory for judges to retire at 70, and although it is difficult to have them removed, they can be. But the standard for that shouldn't be becoming unacceptable to the community, because that can just mean media-fuelled outrage on a point of law where the judge is actually entirely correct.
 
I think they should be elected, Id rather judges me held to the public's demands as opposed to whoever they owe political favors to in terms of being appointed.
 
When Justices are appointed, they are certain to have the political prejudices of the executive who appoints them. Elected judges on the other hand, more closely reflect community standards.

Appointed Justices usually serve for life, so you're stuck with them even as society changes, and they get old and senile (RBG). Judges who are elected and serve terms can be removed if they become unacceptable to the community.

...which is the Ideal. The reality, however, would probably be the same amount of corruption as exists in all elected branches. And it'd be worse because good justices need to have a firm understanding of the law, which is not necessarily guaranteed under the current system, but which would fly out the window entirely if justices were elected. And no amount of magical wand-waving a la "but the public would be educated and only select judges with an understanding of the law" will change that.
 
its not like when judges get chosen by politicians that "firm understanding of the law" is the priority either. Its moreso about ideology and who you know at that point.
 
This may not be the best example on a liberal forum, but I'm reminded of the 2000 Presidential Election controversy. The Gore campaign filed over 80 court petitions, most of them failing in local "elected" (though liberal) courts. They appealed two cases to the Florida Supreme Court, which, packed with liberal appointed lifers, overturned those cases in Gores' favor. When the Bush lawyers appealed further to the US Supreme Court, with a conservative majority - also appointed lifers - they put the Florida high court's decision in abeyance, effectively stopping Gore.

The lower, elected courts had the best, legally correct rulings. The higher appointed courts voted along partisan party lines.
 
About the only thing I can think of that might help reduce the flaws in both system is have the judges appointed by the politicians, but have the people vote whether to retain them or not every 5 years or something.
 
I can just imagine it already. "Judges for Jesus" campaign ads.

We'll rule in favor of all Jesus-y cases, regardless of legal merit! Hooray!
 
i think its a very good idea.

the society is the one determine the moral standard , not the Elite who appointed the judge.

I will say, may the more popular judge make the call.
 
Vote 'em in.

Rather have more choice than no choice.
 
I can just imagine it already. "Judges for Jesus" campaign ads.

We'll rule in favor of all Jesus-y cases, regardless of legal merit! Hooray!
And that is much different from jesusy politicians handpicking judges who are sympathetic to their viewpoints how exactly?
 
And that is much different from jesusy politicians handpicking judges who are sympathetic to their viewpoints how exactly?

Why would there be judges who are sympathetic to anything other than simply applying the law as it is? Because they have developed in system in which they are forced to identify as conservative or liberal for their own advancement? If you have elections for judges, you're creating a politicised judiciary. So when you appoint judges within that system, they're of course not going to magically become de-politicised.
 
Elected judges is an absolutely terrible idea. You could maybe elect them once, but then subsequent renewal of their position would need to be out of the hands of the electorate. The reason is exactly what many have previously said, a Judge's job isn't to do what's popular, or even necessarily morally right. Their job is to interpret the law in a non-arbitrary way. If judges are making unpopular decisions, it's not a failure of the judiciary, its a failure of the legislature.

The trick I guess is to get a system of judicial appointments that aren't so politically influenced (but why are there 'conservative' and 'liberal' judges in the first place, when they are interpreting the very same laws in a supposedly objective manner)? But it's essentially axiomatic here that elected judges are a bad idea.

I assume it's because the U.S. Constitution is more than 200 years old. Trying to interpret the application of any 200 year old document to modern society must be a bloody nightmare.
 
Why would there be judges who are sympathetic to anything other than simply applying the law as it is? Because they have developed in system in which they are forced to identify as conservative or liberal for their own advancement? If you have elections for judges, you're creating a politicised judiciary. So when you appoint judges within that system, they're of course not going to magically become de-politicised.

The lower judges have nothing to do with politicizing the office. Even if every judge was appointed, in this partisan environment it would NEVER be about qualifications. Its silly to suggest that if only there were no judge elections then the next time the president nominated a supreme court justice the senators and representatives would suddenly quiz them on legal knowledge as opposed to their stances on hot button issues. Look at ANY office appointed by politicians, its ALWAYS about politics whether it be a judge a cabinet member or a head of a department.
 
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