Single Player bugs and crashes v36 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of October 2015

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Dont know, got to get with Toffer when he gets back, he has to re-do the sea also, because it does the same thing . . and what new mountains, didnt know we had any??
Mountains and outcrops have not been changed in any way for a very long time now.
I've seen this stretched model problem before with the gatherer unit too; but I just waved it off as an oddity in the game engine which is outside our zone of influence. It usually went away after restarting the game anyway.

Anyhow, I will look into it this february.


Edit: About animal outcomes; from my experience one catches a lot more animals on longer gamespeed than on short gamespeeds.
For example, and these numbers are only estimates based on my gut feeling, on eternity one catch around 100-1000 animals through the prehistoric while on normal gamespeed it's closer to 1-10.

My opinion on their outcomes is thus that it should not adapt to gamespeed unless we make animals far less common on longer gamespeeds. The latter is possible, and is defined in the gamespeed xml, but I believe this also affect regular barbarian spawn frequency.
 
The first part is correct and should be labeled as such on the promotion description. However, the bit where you removed it and it didn't work to remove the special unit redefinition is a bit odd and shouldn't be right.

Another reason for transport ships not to get this promotion is that they already have promotions that increase their capacity. They are just not available until Sea Faring.
 
Mountains and outcrops have not been changed in any way for a very long time now.
I've seen this stretched model problem before with the gatherer unit too; but I just waved it off as an oddity in the game engine which is outside our zone of influence. It usually went away after restarting the game anyway.

Anyhow, I will look into it this february.


Edit: About animal outcomes; from my experience one catches a lot more animals on longer gamespeed than on short gamespeeds.
For example, and these numbers are only estimates based on my gut feeling, on eternity one catch around 100-1000 animals through the prehistoric while on normal gamespeed it's closer to 1-10.

My opinion on their outcomes is thus that it should not adapt to gamespeed unless we make animals far less common on longer gamespeeds. The latter is possible, and is defined in the gamespeed xml, but I believe this also affect regular barbarian spawn frequency.

This is relatively true about the Animals. On Normal you only get 1 Culture and No science when you use the animal for Culture and science once back to a city.

So if you have already gotten the Myths, Hunter, and resource upgrades/buildings then having a train of animals being lead back to your city(ies) in the Preh Era is just a Drain on your finances. It does help with getting your early city borders to the Fat X. But again it is a drain on your finances doing it till you "slaughter" them all and the unit maint. cost goes back down.

But it is also true that you can wipe the animal pop out pretty fast on Normal dependent upon Map size as a variable. On a large map on Normal by turn 150 I'm at Sed Life, and with 7 AI in the game you will have met at least 2-4 of the AI so "hunting" fields are being hit from multiple "sides".

JosEPh
 
But the galleys could carry 3 normal units I though the promotion would have added space for 1 special as well but it doesn't. This promotion effectively destroys your transport units. Perhaps it should not be available to transport units.

It is possible there is something wrong with the Guide definition.

Another reason for transport ships not to get this promotion is that they already have promotions that increase their capacity. They are just not available until Sea Faring.
Been thinking on this and it is probably something to do with the original setting the ship has for its SpecialCargo setting. I would assume that the ship you're referring to has NO specialcargo setting but it has a hard time going back to that for some reason after one has been assigned. (And that would be the bug in removing the promo - can't return to 'nothing' - may need to resolve that in the code at least.)

This is not the only promotionline that will cause this dedication of a SpecialCargo. Once dedicated, that's all the ship can carry. That's just flat out how it works. When I was working on this stuff I did not have it figured out how to create a load/save mechanism for the data form that would be necessary to make it possible to keep the memory usage low if I were to make it capable to set transport units to have multiple transport types. I overcame this hurdle recently when I did the visibility stuff so it may well be worth revisiting. The problem we'd then have is that NONE would not be so easily made valid so it would absolutely require ALL units be defined by a SpecialUnit type (which in this game now really only means load type) - therefore no unit could be left without this tag unless we mean to say it cannot be loaded at all - and ALL transport units would need to define all the types of SpecialCargos they can transport. Doing this massive amount of setup work would have major benefits though in that it would allow us to have promotions expand on the types they can transport rather than simply replace the types they can transport as they do now.

Eventually I'd like to take this step.

I was worried that some transport units may only transport SPECIALUNIT_TROOPS or that we'd want units that can transport SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE to be able to transport SPECIALUNIT_CAPTIVE at least when dedicated to do so. By having a special unit defined, the captives become untransportable by transports dedicated to either of the above so the promo was intended to be able to enable a player to take a ship and commit it to captive transport to make it possible to transport captives at all. However, for those ships that don't deign to define what kind of SPECIALUNIT type they do transport and instead just rely on DomainCargo definitions, this is unnecessary - though many of those will eventually need to be revised as well due to needing to keep them from being able to transport more than one type.

Anyhow... this is complex stuff and it will eventually be made easier. For now, take note of what the unit says it can transport and understand that if the promo changes that, it's a change, not additive. Some units you may still find this promotion valuable for that cannot be so easily isolated out by saying 'not on transports'.

I know its complex but am I making sense here?

Edit: About animal outcomes; from my experience one catches a lot more animals on longer gamespeed than on short gamespeeds.
For example, and these numbers are only estimates based on my gut feeling, on eternity one catch around 100-1000 animals through the prehistoric while on normal gamespeed it's closer to 1-10.

My opinion on their outcomes is thus that it should not adapt to gamespeed unless we make animals far less common on longer gamespeeds. The latter is possible, and is defined in the gamespeed xml, but I believe this also affect regular barbarian spawn frequency.
The problem is if we reduce the spawn frequency we'll make the longer game a lot more frustrating with inaction for long periods of time. Having the animals continue to spawn as normal on longer game settings is exactly what makes the longer setting more enjoyable if you've got the patience for it.

I've been thinking on this and I don't think it's as big a problem as Pit wants to make it. If it only took one animal to make a tech (depending on the tech X grid level of course) take only 1 or 2 rounds to research then it would potentially be an issue. But I didn't realize he was talking about sacking 20 animals or so to achieve this. If you're willing to do that, you may be giving up a lot of other potential benefits there (one reason I felt the butchering should be an action one could take to compete with this selection), including keeping the animals to give future cities a boost long after animals stop being so readily available. So it's one thing a player can do among many and that's a lot of animals to sack to make it possible to speed up research to the point that it's nearly worth a good result on a single goody hut. Not as imbalancing as it first struck me as being.

This is relatively true about the Animals. On Normal you only get 1 Culture and No science when you use the animal for Culture and science once back to a city.

So if you have already gotten the Myths, Hunter, and resource upgrades/buildings then having a train of animals being lead back to your city(ies) in the Preh Era is just a Drain on your finances. It does help with getting your early city borders to the Fat X. But again it is a drain on your finances doing it till you "slaughter" them all and the unit maint. cost goes back down.

But it is also true that you can wipe the animal pop out pretty fast on Normal dependent upon Map size as a variable. On a large map on Normal by turn 150 I'm at Sed Life, and with 7 AI in the game you will have met at least 2-4 of the AI so "hunting" fields are being hit from multiple "sides".

JosEPh
That was basically my original point. I wasn't advocating changing the base adjustment so much as maybe looking at adjusting how it gets adjusted for gamespeed since longer games get more access to animals and that isn't truly factored in there compared to normal speed games.

That said, given all evidence, at the moment I'd rank this problem about a 2 on a scale of 1-10 and there's been 7s and 8s hanging around for multiple version releases so I'm not inclined to consider this a red alert situation that needs immediate resolution.
 
Been thinking on this and it is probably something to do with the original setting the ship has for its SpecialCargo setting. I would assume that the ship you're referring to has NO specialcargo setting but it has a hard time going back to that for some reason after one has been assigned. (And that would be the bug in removing the promo - can't return to 'nothing' - may need to resolve that in the code at least.)

This is not the only promotionline that will cause this dedication of a SpecialCargo. Once dedicated, that's all the ship can carry. That's just flat out how it works.

Then it should not be available to those ships that can already transport those special units because they can transport all units anyway. My galleys could already transport captives as well as any other unit but after I gave it that promotion which just says you can now transport +1 captive, it could only carry captives. Not what the hover over was saying!

I would suggest you remove that promotion from transport ships. As I said they already have a +1 unit line of promotions. At least for now.

I am going to have to delete those galleys in WB and put new ones in as my army is on a far continent and can't get home!
 
Then it should not be available to those ships that can already transport those special units because they can transport all units anyway. My galleys could already transport captives as well as any other unit but after I gave it that promotion which just says you can now transport +1 captive, it could only carry captives. Not what the hover over was saying!

I would suggest you remove that promotion from transport ships. As I said they already have a +1 unit line of promotions. At least for now.

I am going to have to delete those galleys in WB and put new ones in as my army is on a far continent and can't get home!

Point is we would need to ensure that ALL transport ships have no specific definition as to what special unit type they transport first. IIRC more modern ships start specifying troops only

There could be a unique coding solution for this I suppose. Somehow.

EDIT:
I'll probably need to do the latter. The naval review will depend on it though I do think the best solution would be to incorporate the multiple load types during full fledged work on the naval review. There's currently some units that this was given to transport units for but I think keeping it to pirates and criminals and ruffians alone could work for now.
 
The problem is if we reduce the spawn frequency we'll make the longer game a lot more frustrating with inaction for long periods of time. Having the animals continue to spawn as normal on longer game settings is exactly what makes the longer setting more enjoyable if you've got the patience for it.

I've been thinking on this and I don't think it's as big a problem as Pit wants to make it. If it only took one animal to make a tech (depending on the tech X grid level of course) take only 1 or 2 rounds to research then it would potentially be an issue. But I didn't realize he was talking about sacking 20 animals or so to achieve this. If you're willing to do that, you may be giving up a lot of other potential benefits there (one reason I felt the butchering should be an action one could take to compete with this selection), including keeping the animals to give future cities a boost long after animals stop being so readily available. So it's one thing a player can do among many and that's a lot of animals to sack to make it possible to speed up research to the point that it's nearly worth a good result on a single goody hut. Not as imbalancing as it first struck me as being.

Yep reducing the spawn frequency sucks, bonus just need to be the same as on all game speeds and map sizes or less then on other game speeds and map sizes.

Quote from my scenario thread:

(To make that clear)

1 and 2 with no buildings
5 and 10 with cave paintings
7 and 10 with scribe
10 and 5 with library
15 and 3 with university

The bonus increase when you have cave paintings in a city. So look your animal in a city where you got cave paintings, should display +62 research and without cave paintings only +12 research. (Bonus you get when making the heritage.) Yep feel free to look in my savegame... so on eternity you get about +500% research from cave paintings by animals, very very to mutch.

Quote end.

So i need 10-15 animals now to get 1 new tech before tribalismus, i get 10 animals in about 1-2 turns. (Same for the AI now, if they have cave paintings)

Also the building increase can be removed completly, animals give enouth bonus with +12 research for the entire game, no increase needed at all.

Look screenshot like the tech games i need 800 research points on eternity to research it so i need only 13 animals to research the tech... because with the increase a animal gives me now +65 research points, but i get +94 research from other stuff so i may only need about 7-8 animals... resulting in i get the tech in 1-2 turns, 800 research points / +62 research per animal = 13 animals, i say just remove the increase by buildings completly, its not needed... research goes fast enouth in game. For the low standard hunting bonus for the entire game its worth hunting and makes fun, and is realistic because animals will give in later timelines not mutch research, no bouns increase needed at all.

If i had the standard bonus +12 research from one animal then i need for the games tech 800 research points / +12 research per animal = 66 animals to get the tech, that was ok. Longer techs should need more animals, so again no increase in bonuns at all needed. Just keep it on +12 research by animals for the entire game and remove all building increases for animal research.

EDIT: Ok we found a bug in my scenario, so i have the largest gigantic earth map with UEM but it played on HUGE, is changed now to GIGANTIC, that meens the animal problem will stay there but my research times to get a tech are now longer for UEM scenario, so that meens i dont will get a tech in 1-2 turns i will get it in 2-4 turns with the animal bonus, still same problem i think testing now... GIGANTIC fix is ready for UEM 2.9 later.

Yes HUGE to GIGANTIC bug fixed for UEM 2.9, works. Animal problem stays the same... so that meens now:

With the bonus increase from cave paintings a animal gives me now +65 research points, resulting in i get the games tech in 2-4 turns, 1358 research points / +62 research per animal = 21 animals, i can get 21 animals in 2-4 turns. So animal problem stays in... also looks like the animal bonus is only increasing by gamesped not mapsize maybe, no change as i go from HUGE to GIGANTIC
 

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How about making spawn frequency somewhat dependent upon the amount of animals already in the vicinity. Land masses without hunters get mobbed by crazy amounts of animals, and if separated by enough water won't be visited by hunters (unless barb spawn and are separated from animals) until ocean going vessels.
 
That was basically my original point. I wasn't advocating changing the base adjustment so much as maybe looking at adjusting how it gets adjusted for gamespeed since longer games get more access to animals and that isn't truly factored in there compared to normal speed games.

This would be the ideal solution, though, it might go well with also a small increase in the base values
Perhaps 25 or 50 % bigger outcome per gamespeed up,
It is now, I believe, 100% per gamespeed up.

p.s. Just so everyone is clear on this; animal and barb spawn frequency is atm lower on longer gamespeeds. It is scaled less than, for example, unit training cost. I think the frequency is pretty well adjusted as it is, if it wasn't scaled at all, barbarian activity could become overwhelming on e.g. eternity.
 
How about making spawn frequency somewhat dependent upon the amount of animals already in the vicinity. Land masses without hunters get mobbed by crazy amounts of animals, and if separated by enough water won't be visited by hunters (unless barb spawn and are separated from animals) until ocean going vessels.
It actually is. But it checks the density of the same type that would spawn, not the density of the animals overall. Any unexplored area will find a cap at a point but it makes it seem like quite a lot when you compare it to a well hunted land.

This would be the ideal solution, though, it might go well with also a small increase in the base values
Perhaps 25 or 50 % bigger outcome per gamespeed up,
It is now, I believe, 100% per gamespeed up.
What XML file would it be in?

p.s. Just so everyone is clear on this; animal and barb spawn frequency is atm lower on longer gamespeeds. It is scaled less than, for example, unit training cost. I think the frequency is pretty well adjusted as it is, if it wasn't scaled at all, barbarian activity could become overwhelming on e.g. eternity.
That is true as well, but between that and the point made above actually tending to counter some of this, you'll still get a lot more animals on a longer gamespeed usually. And this probably isn't a bad thing given that it does help to keep the game interesting.
 
It actually is. But it checks the density of the same type that would spawn, not the density of the animals overall. Any unexplored area will find a cap at a point but it makes it seem like quite a lot when you compare it to a well hunted land.


What XML file would it be in?
I believe it uses the generic adapt adjuster in gamespeedInfos.xml, but I might be wrong.
It's the last lines before the calendar part of gamespeeds.
But changing this one would affect a lot of things so I would advice against changing it.


That is true as well, but between that and the point made above actually tending to counter some of this, you'll still get a lot more animals on a longer gamespeed usually. And this probably isn't a bad thing given that it does help to keep the game interesting.
Agreed.
 
I am UNable to take over an enemy town for some odd reason, i moved ALL my troops into the city YET it does concede control??

I even went 1 more turn and still cant take control??

Share the save on that please. I don't see any good reasons that should be happening there.
 
Hi! Playing SVN I came upon few things that IMHO are weird and should be considered bugs....
1. Why fighting barbarians (non-animal) gives "Hunter" bonus? - I guess this happens after fighting barbarians with Sophisticated promotion already on unit.

2. Why "Hunter" promotion has any disadvantage on it? "Yeh, I fought animal (or any other barbarian - look up) when I was nearly dead, won, and now I don't know how to fight any human or vehicle...". I know it has plenty of bonuses that should fix that -strength % e.g. bonus first strike... But what about first strike immunity? And if "Hunter" has disadvantage on fighting non-animal units... then why don't "Shock" have -strenght vs ranged?

//EDIT//

3. Resource Display button seems to either don't work or shows icons of only few resources (after entering WorldBuilder and loading).

//EDIT2//

4. Epic speed, turn ~170 captive turned into Gatherer. ~171 turn Sedentary Lifestyle researched, so my Gatherer can upgrade to Worker... WTH 176 gold?! Okkk.... Captive however can be turned into Worker for free....
 
Share the save on that please. I don't see any good reasons that should be happening there.

While I didn't look at that save, I've had the same kind of problem. The only way to overcome that problem was the standout promotion. It seems, if the enemy cannot see the attacking unit, the enemy cannot cede control.
 
While I didn't look at that save, I've had the same kind of problem. The only way to overcome that problem was the standout promotion. It seems, if the enemy cannot see the attacking unit, the enemy cannot cede control.

But there is no enemy in the city, and i have assassins and Heroes and all kinds of units attached that it still doesnt work, and i dont see any of them that have the standout promo? I think??
 
While I didn't look at that save, I've had the same kind of problem. The only way to overcome that problem was the standout promotion. It seems, if the enemy cannot see the attacking unit, the enemy cannot cede control.

Yeah, but the units he has shouldn't require that. I'll look at it as soon as I can.

@SO: He's suggesting to have one of your units be set to standout. Perhaps the rider.
 
Y

@SO: He's suggesting to have one of your units be set to standout. Perhaps the rider.

I looked at the rider and used all of the promotions he had, and i didnt see a standout there.
 
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