Single Player bugs and crashes v36 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of October 2015

[strategyonly]

Edit @SO which is it supposed to be "1 unit every X turns in the city that built the wonder" or "20% chance in every city every X turns"?

The way i believe it was set up is that it ONLY gives a crusader after a certain amount of turns in the city that built the Long Richard Crusade.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The way i believe it was set up is that it ONLY gives a crusader after a certain amount of turns in the city that built the Long Richard Crusade.

Which is not what the original in RoM did nor the original wonder.

Which brings up the question about units of other religions since imo this wonder should only work if you have a state religion and it should create units that match the religion.

We could re-purpose the two Egyptian Myth units as currently they are national units with a maximum number of 1 each. Give the foot one in cities without horses in the vicinity or base it on a random number.

 

[strategyonly]

Which is not what the original in RoM did nor the original wonder.

Which brings up the question about units of other religions since imo this wonder should only work if you have a state religion and it should create units that match the religion.

We could re-purpose the two Egyptian Myth units as currently they are national units with a maximum number of 1 each. Give the foot one in cities without horses in the vicinity or base it on a random number.

Here is what i found:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11387

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

edit 3 This code should do both. Every X turns a unit with full XP is created in the city that builds the wonder and for every other city there is a 20% chance that a unit is created with 10% having full XP and the rest none.

Spoiler :

	# Crusade Start ##
		estiEnd = CyGame().getEstimateEndTurn()
		iTurns = estiEnd/100
		if iTurns > 16:
			iTurns = 16
		elif iTurns < 4:
			iTurns = 4

		if CyGame().getGameTurn() % iTurns ==0:
			if pPlayer.getBuildingClassCount(self.iBUILDING_CRUSADE) == 0: 
				continue # if the player doesn't have the building
		
			bCreateCrusader = False
			bFullXP = False
			if gc.getTeam(pPlayer.getTeam()).isHasTech(self.iTECH_FUNDAMENTALISM):
				obsoleteTech = gc.getBuildingInfo(self.iBUILDING_CRUSADE).getObsoleteTech()
				if ( gc.getTeam(pPlayer.getTeam()).isHasTech(obsoleteTech) == False or obsoleteTech == -1 ):

					if pCity.getNumActiveBuilding(self.iBUILDING_CRUSADE) > 0:
						bCreateCrusader = True
						bFullXP = True
					else CyGame().getSorenRandNum(4, "Crusade") == 0:
						bCreateCrusader = True
						if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(9, "Crusade") == 0:
							bFullXP = True

					if bCreateCrusader:
						iX = ppCity.getX()
						iY = ppCity.getY()
						
						pNewUnit = pPlayer.initUnit( self.iUNIT_CRUSADER, iX, iY, UnitAITypes.UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY, DirectionTypes.NO_DIRECTION )
						pCity.addProductionExperience(pNewUnit, bFullXP)
		# Crusade End #

Your code's actually broken, if I'm understanding your intent correctly. I want to say you need to change that else to an elif, and ppCity.getX() and ppCity.getY() to pCity.getX() and pCity.getY(), respectively. I'm pretty sure it's the ppCity rather than than pCity that caused it to not work to begin with.

The addProductionExperience function wasn't giving me full XP. I actually got exactly 1/2 XP on the Crusader as compared to a new-build Heavy Swordsman in the same city, so there's something odd going on there.

As for what the wonder's intent ought to be, bear in mind that it currently requires Christianity as your state religion to build, though it continues to function if you change religions. My opinion is that changing it to produce a different unit entirely for each religion is probably overly complicated. That said, a check for state religion doesn't seem like it'd be difficult, and there should be some incentive to keep Christianity as your state religion. Possibly something along the lines of "If state religion is Christianity, full effect as above, if has state religion that isn't Christianity, only get Crusaders from the city with the wonder, if has no state religion, no effect at all"?

 

[BlueGenie]

Game option "Fight or Flight" gives a good survivability to early units. Great, love it, but also gives, if used, Battle Field promotions of the promotions included in "Fight or Flight" in droves.
My Wanderers had 10+ such promotions each and as most of them were removed when upgraded to Trackers they could suddenly take 10+ actual Tracker promotions and not a single animal could match them even as mere trackers.
The only reason to upgrade them to Hunters later on was so they could take out lonely straggling barb units of Str 4 (Atlatists and Stone Axemen).

Cheers

 

[Thunderbrd]

SVN9292:
I burned down an enemy city that had some criminals inside. They never moved from the plot. I later built a fort on the tile, and they continue to remain in the plot. Next I moved police units, including a dedicated investigator, into the fort. The criminals remain and can not be found after 50+ turns. Though they do trigger the dog in a nearby city to wake up every turn.

After the first event, destroying the city ruins would have removed all places for them to hide and they would've been attackable.
By building a fort, you gave them a place to continue to hide out. Both of these improvements count as a city for the purposes of criminals being unattackable there.

However, if you are pointing out the fact that they don't move, this is due to the extremely simplistic AI they currently have. The need to enhance it is well known.

The point that they couldn't be investigated there in the fort is interesting... I'll have to look into that. It must be, as stated earlier, that investigation checks can only take place in an actual city but I suppose I should also add anything that acts like a city for the sake of allowing criminals to be unattackable.

In a game I started with 9265 I had a Thief in my 2nd city. I moved a Tamed Buffalo (str 4) to the city (I wanted the Herd bldg) and it Attacked and killed the Thief upon entering. (This game is also the one that had the long EoT waits).

I had moved a Tamed horse there earlier in the game and the TH did not attack the Thief.

Perhaps DH can tell what the difference would be between those 2 Tamed animal units?

Nothing is wrong or different with the animals themselves. The thief shouldn't have been attackable if within a city. This should be fixed now.

edit 4 @TB We often use this method of creating units as far as I know it does not cause OOS errors on multi player but we could change it to use NetNodeMessages which would mean that only the player with the wonder would need to do the generating, I think.

It's usually a better method to use the messages in general to avoid the potential for OOS errors.

Interesting about the XP issue and how that is or is not working. I'm not sure if there could be a bug there or not.

Game option "Fight or Flight" gives a good survivability to early units. Great, love it, but also gives, if used, Battle Field promotions of the promotions included in "Fight or Flight" in droves.
My Wanderers had 10+ such promotions each and as most of them were removed when upgraded to Trackers they could suddenly take 10+ actual Tracker promotions and not a single animal could match them even as mere trackers.
The only reason to upgrade them to Hunters later on was so they could take out lonely straggling barb units of Str 4 (Atlatists and Stone Axemen).

The odds against the unit surviving is the basis of the chance of getting a battlefield promotion but it doesn't take into account withdrawal so if it's seriously unlikely for the unit to come out victorious then the chance of getting a battlefield promotion is high as a result. When you factor in how withdrawal then allows the unit to SURVIVE the battle it shouldn't win, and understand that the likelihood of getting that promotion doesn't adjust to reflect the withdrawal odds, you can see how we have a problem. The problem I have had every time I look at the code is not quite seeing where and how to resolve it.

But I'll look into it again when it comes up in the debug queue here.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Remember my earlier report about how Criminals were getting defensive bonuses? Turns out it's not quite accurate. Specifically, not all criminals get the city defense bonus, and while I'm not certain, recent experience seems to indicate that it's only the Cutthroat (12 strength) that is getting the defense bonus that's making it nigh-impossible to arrest in a mature city. I think I mistakenly reported it as being a Scoundrel in my other post. Anyway, I suspect it's because Cutthroats also have the Ruffian combat class, whereas none of the other spawned criminals I've seen so far do. Even throwing 500XP Canadian Mounties (27 strength Law Enforcement/Cavalry) at them takes several losses or withdrawals to bring one down due to the 1000%+ defensive bonus and the large pile of free promotions my Capital gives.

Another interesting bug, castle catacombs' secret passage event can be triggered by wild animals. It's really quite silly to see a warning about needing reinforcements due to a pigeon that managed to find a secret passage.

The Empire State Building appears to still be giving some non-map bonuses. My current game, the Empire State Building gave me Ancient Relics, Titanium Ingots, and Calculators. Depending on the intent of the wonder, it may be better to rewrite the criteria to be more strict. The code is in Assets/Python/Platyping; looking at it and the schema I think perhaps rewriting it to only add to the list of valid possibilities if a bonus is in BONUSCLASS_GENERAL, LIVESTOCK, GRAIN, SEAFOOD, LUXURY, or FUEL may do the trick. I can throw that together if you'd like.
edit: Nope. Bleh. Too many manufactured bonii are in BONUSCLASS_GENERAL as well. Possibly limiting it to just livestock, grain, seafood, luxury, and fuel (adding an exclusion for biofuel), then adding in specific map bonuses that happen to count as general? Hmm.
edit2: Ok, so apparently the bonus classes are just a mess all around. Looks like a better way of handling it would just be to go into the BonusInfos and properly changing all the bonuses to their correct bonusclass. Does the bonusclass affect anything else, though? That is, will it break things elsewhere to change the massive number of manufactured bonuses to bonusclass_manufactured from bonusclass_general? If someone could clarify the intent of the wonder, and answer the above questiion, I can do the grunt work and upload it as an attachment or something (I have no SVN access).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

edit2: Ok, so apparently the bonus classes are just a mess all around. Looks like a better way of handling it would just be to go into the BonusInfos and properly changing all the bonuses to their correct bonusclass. Does the bonusclass affect anything else, though? That is, will it break things elsewhere to change the massive number of manufactured bonuses to bonusclass_manufactured from bonusclass_general? If someone could clarify the intent of the wonder, and answer the above questiion, I can do the grunt work and upload it as an attachment or something (I have no SVN access).

BONUSCLASS_GENERAL should only be used for map resources as some map scripts will fill in what it thinks of as blank areas with items of this type. All manufactured goods should have BONUSCLASS_MANUFACTURED or BONUSCLASS_TRADE or BONUSCLASS_FUEL.

 

[Noriad2]

Don't forget that C2C does not use a new random seed on reload, for debugging purposes. So if you reload the same turn, the outcome will still be the same.

Although, my personal theory on this is that the overall odds at the beginning were somewhat reasonable, but were dependent on the first X battles doing some certain minimal amount of damage. The RNG was against it, but the AI failed to reevaluate after its initial losses. I'm wondering how often the AI reconsiders its decisions, since it seems possible that what happened was along the lines of "If I throw stack A at stack B, I have a 50% chance of success", but after the first 20 losses, the overall odds dropped significantly but no reevaluation (and thus retreat) took place.

I still do not believe that the suicidal attack of the AI in the save I provided in post 2852 (august 30) in this thread is the result of bad luck, but same random seed on reload is a valid criticism. So I turned on the hidden option "new random seed on reload" and retested the save three times:

Test 1:
AI losses: 98 units.
My losses: 0

Test 2:
AI losses: 95 units
My losses: 1 unit (axeman)

Test 3:
AI losses: 97 units
My losses: 1 unit (spearman)

Conclusion: this massive AI defeat was NOT caused by exceptional bad luck. And because several of my defenders were still undamaged, the AI could theoretically throw in another few dozen units and those would also have their butts kicked.

EDIT: Probability theory is pretty much what is used to lean against in the coding that exists but it doesn't take into account the weakening of units as they get damaged that takes place in C2C. I'm guessing this is the issue basically. Think of it this way: A unit may get an average of a minimum of 6 5% chances to injure that indomitable foe they face by the time they die in the standard vanilla combat system. When they do strike a hit, they will deal a minimum of 6 damage of 100. Enough units and you can overwhelm an enemy with such a system.

In C2C the minimums are pretty much gone and the chances get worse every round they didn't succeed. So that same combat in C2C would mean 1 round to get a 5% chance to strike a hit which may do 3 pts out of 100 and then, failing to do so the first round, the next round its a 3% chance to do 2 pts of 100, then the third round a 1% chance to do 1 pt of damage and then 1 % chance to do 1 pt, then failing that round they die.

This changes the underlying coded assumption that enough units can overcome extremely powerful defenders.

If I understand the situation correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), having a strength difference gives three advantages to the stronger unit: 1) higher chance to score a hit and less chance to receive a hit 2) the stronger unit will generally do more damage on a successful hit 3) the weaker unit will lose hp faster than the stronger unit, therefore its effective strength drops faster, therefore the damage dealing potential of the weaker unit also drops faster as the battle between two units continues, which means the weaker unit will do even less damage.

You indicate that (3) may be the culprit. Which means that a correction factor on average damage done is needed that changes as the strength difference increases. What this correction factor should be would require a lot of math talent to figure out.

But it may also be a straight bug: perhaps the AI forgot to factor in the +100% defense bonus of my Mapinguaris?

Or perhaps the attack was simply a mistake. For example, I often place a Warlord or similar strong Hidden Nationality unit on my border in a location with good terrain defense bonus. The AI then often attacks with one or two regular units, which get of course obliterated. Sometimes the attackers are catapult type units and that is extra silly as catapults cannot kill units in the field without other units helping afterwards (and no other units attack). Then a few turns later my Warlord is attacked by a large stack and eventually killed although with many losses to the enemy. You could argue whether killing a warlord is worth that many units, but at least it ends in a victory for the AI. Throwing in one or two regular units however without immediate follow-up attacks is just a straight waste of units and I wonder whether that is deliberate or a mistake. Like a unit is walking along a predetermined path and forgets to stop when a warlord is placed in its path. Going back to the save I provided: perhaps the AI stack was walking along a path and did not notice that my army was on its route and simply walked into it?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still do not believe that the suicidal attack of the AI in the save I provided in post 2852 (august 30) in this thread is the result of bad luck, but same random seed on reload is a valid criticism. So I turned on the hidden option "new random seed on reload" and retested the save three times:

Test 1:
AI losses: 98 units.
My losses: 0

Test 2:
AI losses: 95 units
My losses: 1 unit (axeman)

Test 3:
AI losses: 97 units
My losses: 1 unit (spearman)

Conclusion: this massive AI defeat was NOT caused by exceptional bad luck. And because several of my defenders were still undamaged, the AI could theoretically throw in another few dozen units and those would also have their butts kicked.

Several of your BEST defenders with equivalent bonuses to the ones lost in those scenarios? Or are the ones that were lost in tests 2 and 3 particularly suited towards facing the units coming at them on the terrain they were on? My point is that either tests 2 and 3 had a battle which had a crazy amount of luck for the attacker or yes, the stack as a whole was beginning to weaken to the point that battles could begin being won if the quality of the attackers continued being available.

Which is kinda to say not much really except that given 2 out of three the defender suffers a loss means that the AI wasn't THAT far off the presumption that they COULD have won overall with better luck. It's admitted that they need to overpower even stronger if they are going to win. The concept of overwhelming numbers is about 20% as valid as it was in vanilla and the programming to evaluate the strength of 'overwhelming' unit numbers is not that far off from what it originally was. So in the case of the AI evaluating large stacks against other stacks, it's about 80% off in its assessment of capability to rely on assumed damage being delivered during a given attack.

If I understand the situation correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), having a strength difference gives three advantages to the stronger unit: 1) higher chance to score a hit and less chance to receive a hit 2) the stronger unit will generally do more damage on a successful hit 3) the weaker unit will lose hp faster than the stronger unit, therefore its effective strength drops faster, therefore the damage dealing potential of the weaker unit also drops faster as the battle between two units continues, which means the weaker unit will do even less damage.

Hmm... More like:
1) Higher chance to score a hit and less chance to receive a hit
2) WILL do more damage on a successful hit and take less damage when hit. (though some modifiers can adjust this final amount.)
3) The weaker unit will LIKELY lose hp faster and everything else you mentioned there will continue as you stated.

Not much difference to what you said. Just clarifying if there's still a little misunderstanding on those minor differences.

You indicate that (3) may be the culprit. Which means that a correction factor on average damage done is needed that changes as the strength difference increases. What this correction factor should be would require a lot of math talent to figure out.

And processing. Yes.

If you look at a similar battle in vanilla, you'll see that it's almost impossible for a 3 str unit to go to battle with a str 20 unit and not do a little damage to the str 20 unit. Conversely, in C2C, its more realistic. It's almost impossible for the str 3 unit to ever injure a str 20 unit to any amount. Thus, we've gone from 'it's almost impossible for an attack by overwhelming amounts of units to fail as long as the unit count is at a particular ratio to the enemy's unit count' to 'it's almost impossible for underwhelming units to even make a dent in the enemy's defenses when the enemy units are far stronger than yours regardless of how many more units you have'. But the programming to assess those large scale chances haven't changed.

But it may also be a straight bug: perhaps the AI forgot to factor in the +100% defense bonus of my Mapinguaris?

This is impossible on an individual evaluation of odds as odds evaluated is done at the end total of all modifiers which means that if it would show up in the text of the combat help, it is BEING counted in the actual combat sequence.

Or perhaps the attack was simply a mistake. For example, I often place a Warlord or similar strong Hidden Nationality unit on my border in a location with good terrain defense bonus. The AI then often attacks with one or two regular units, which get of course obliterated. Sometimes the attackers are catapult type units and that is extra silly as catapults cannot kill units in the field without other units helping afterwards (and no other units attack). Then a few turns later my Warlord is attacked by a large stack and eventually killed although with many losses to the enemy. You could argue whether killing a warlord is worth that many units, but at least it ends in a victory for the AI. Throwing in one or two regular units however without immediate follow-up attacks is just a straight waste of units and I wonder whether that is deliberate or a mistake. Like a unit is walking along a predetermined path and forgets to stop when a warlord is placed in its path. Going back to the save I provided: perhaps the AI stack was walking along a path and did not notice that my army was on its route and simply walked into it?

Can't rule that out since Koshling created a truly mysterious labyrinth of code to control movement rules. It really is beyond MY capacity to understand. Maybe someday I'll take the month or two it would require to patiently break it down into bitesized deciphered chunks enough to sort out what is happening with it all. I know there ARE a few bugs there that are just left alone because basically only he would be able to fix them.

However, human units sent from point A to point B are interrupted when they see a threat and requeued for the player to determine what they will do from there. The same code controls the AI being prompted to react to such threats. I don't think that the AI can really 'accidentally' attack by just moving somewhere... at a very core level, if they try to move and it would be an attack instead of a normal move, it immediately enters some other routines, something of an 'are you sure?' routine for the AI. In short, ALL attacks are evaluated and that's an assumable truth if you don't mess with core stuff in the 'move to' segment of the AI coding. Which is why I avoid making any adjustments there at all.

In short, it's not likely this. Unless we are seeing a LOT of these kinds of movements as if the AI is completely blind to units around them, including ignoring attacks they should make (I know hunters have been having problems with this but I think it's a different reason.) I've seen the AI attack ME fairly appropriately - enough to suspect that they are acting fairly according to plan in most cases.

This particular case sounds to me to be mostly a matter of a gross mis-assumption as to the capability of an attack by lots and lots of units to have an impact on strong defenders in a strongly defensive position.


BTW, that catapult attack may not be too bad as their withdrawal is automatic if they can just get the defender down to the combat limit in health. This withdrawal may mean that they can assume they can more safely injure your unit without suffering a loss, which they may believe will force you to want to heal that unit and keep it in a bad position in the field. Keep in mind that the AI is not given to have its units understand where all other units are on the map, so it doesn't often consider if other units will be there to 'back up' this unit's efforts. It sometimes has to just operate on blind faith that it does. A weakness for sure but just how long do we want to wait between turns? AI IQ = turn time delay.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

1) There's still some serious issues with the AI deciding to overbuild Tamed Animals.

Spoiler Detailed description :

In my current game, I'm the runaway leader, well into the Modern era, and I'm mostly just messing around seeing how far I can get before turn times get unbearably long. There are four major surviving AIs at late Medieval to Renaissance tech levels, one hopelessly isolated AI in late Classical, and one single-city remnant that's stuck in a one-tile-wide border zone between me and my nearest neighbor. I sent a slavecatching/general training expedition of Privateers and Partisans over to the strongest of the AIs' continent, only to encounter an "army" of at least 800 tamed animals, roughly evenly split between horses, giraffes, musk oxen, and buffalo. What's more, the AI in question is still continuing to train Tamed Animals in at least a third of its visible cities. I've spotted maybe 50ish non-siege military units, 40ish siege, 100ish law enforcement and healers combined, and around 200 Cogs. Note that said AI has already finished off the only neighbor on its continent and does not yet have Optics, though it recently gained access to and has started settling a moderately sized empty polar continent. Do note that I'm playing with unlimited national units, so presumably if national unit limits were on this AI would hit 15 of each and stop.

TL;DR AI builds 800+ Tamed Animals, 200+ Cogs.

2) Sea Tunnels mess up pathfinding for automated tasks (Hunting, Religion/Corporation spread), in that units will successfully path onto or across an area linked via Tunnel, but fail to path off of it again. Most noticeable if there's an island in between two continents or two major areas linked by tunnels, lots of automated units will tend to collect on the island as they start crossing, arrive on the island, then go "this is an island, guess I'm stuck forever".

3) Water Mills upgrading to Hydro Plants actually lose 1 in tile yield, without gaining any or .

4) Building improvements on Taiga/Tundra tiles is strange. Workshops are buildable on most Tundra tiles that have water access, but only until Factories are unlocked. At this point, neither Workshops or Factories can be built on those same tiles. Nor can the existing Workshops upgrade. Meanwhile, Taiga tiles without water access can only have Tree Nurseries built on them, but once Factories are available those are buildable.

5) Hunter-line units that upgrade lose their Hunter III and IV promotions, though they can immediately get them again using the free promotions from losing them.

6) Subdued Crabs can only construct Crab Pens in a city with Myth - Fish, limiting you to just one.

7) Institute for Shark Studies gives education, but Institute for Whale Studies and Institute for Cephalopod Studies do not.

8) Story - Paleolithic Glyptodon and Story - Giant Sloth do not obsolete, while their Stories buildings do.

 

[Thunderbrd]

1) There's still some serious issues with the AI deciding to overbuild Tamed Animals.

Spoiler Detailed description :

In my current game, I'm the runaway leader, well into the Modern era, and I'm mostly just messing around seeing how far I can get before turn times get unbearably long. There are four major surviving AIs at late Medieval to Renaissance tech levels, one hopelessly isolated AI in late Classical, and one single-city remnant that's stuck in a one-tile-wide border zone between me and my nearest neighbor. I sent a slavecatching/general training expedition of Privateers and Partisans over to the strongest of the AIs' continent, only to encounter an "army" of at least 800 tamed animals, roughly evenly split between horses, giraffes, musk oxen, and buffalo. What's more, the AI in question is still continuing to train Tamed Animals in at least a third of its visible cities. I've spotted maybe 50ish non-siege military units, 40ish siege, 100ish law enforcement and healers combined, and around 200 Cogs. Note that said AI has already finished off the only neighbor on its continent and does not yet have Optics, though it recently gained access to and has started settling a moderately sized empty polar continent. Do note that I'm playing with unlimited national units, so presumably if national unit limits were on this AI would hit 15 of each and stop.

TL;DR AI builds 800+ Tamed Animals, 200+ Cogs.

2) Sea Tunnels mess up pathfinding for automated tasks (Hunting, Religion/Corporation spread), in that units will successfully path onto or across an area linked via Tunnel, but fail to path off of it again. Most noticeable if there's an island in between two continents or two major areas linked by tunnels, lots of automated units will tend to collect on the island as they start crossing, arrive on the island, then go "this is an island, guess I'm stuck forever".

3) Water Mills upgrading to Hydro Plants actually lose 1 in tile yield, without gaining any or .

4) Building improvements on Taiga/Tundra tiles is strange. Workshops are buildable on most Tundra tiles that have water access, but only until Factories are unlocked. At this point, neither Workshops or Factories can be built on those same tiles. Nor can the existing Workshops upgrade. Meanwhile, Taiga tiles without water access can only have Tree Nurseries built on them, but once Factories are available those are buildable.

5) Hunter-line units that upgrade lose their Hunter III and IV promotions, though they can immediately get them again using the free promotions from losing them.

6) Subdued Crabs can only construct Crab Pens in a city with Myth - Fish, limiting you to just one.

7) Institute for Shark Studies gives education, but Institute for Whale Studies and Institute for Cephalopod Studies do not.

8) Story - Paleolithic Glyptodon and Story - Giant Sloth do not obsolete, while their Stories buildings do.

1) Interesting. I can take a look at that during the deep AI strategic restructuring next cycle.

2) This is almost impossible to resolve. The shortcut to only consider the area the unit is on (an area is a code term that is similar to the concept of a 'continent') is deeply important to keeping turn times diminished. Possibly late late late in the mod development we may be able to figure out some ways around this.

3) Probably due to tech bonuses to the water mills that weren't taken fully into account. Fair enough to point out that Hydro Plants should be given a few more yield pts.

4) Interesting.

5) DH reported this as well but never answered my question. What does the message log state the reason they lose those promotions is? Also, can you provide a save where said upgrade can take place so I can evaluate what's happening in the code?

6-8) DH stuff.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Assert Failed

File:  CvArtFileMgr.cpp
Line:  101
SVN-Rev:  9292
Expression:  false
Message:  ArtInfo: 'ART_DEF_BUILDING_CULTURE_AFRICAN' was not found

 

[Taxman66]

Tbird: saw that with the hunters as well. I believe it says they don't have the prerequisites, but it was a while ago and I could be wrong.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

6) Subdued Crabs can only construct Crab Pens in a city with Myth - Fish, limiting you to just one.

7) Institute for Shark Studies gives education, but Institute for Whale Studies and Institute for Cephalopod Studies do not.

8) Story - Paleolithic Glyptodon and Story - Giant Sloth do not obsolete, while their Stories buildings do.

6) should be the local fish myth building not the national fish myth building. Got missed when I added in the local one I expect. edit should really be crab myth effect now we have the crab myth.

7) Probably missed by whoever added education way back when. Thanks I'll fix

8) Good catch. Must have been from before I had the template made. Although it could be from before I had the Remains buildings defined.

 

[strategyonly]

Repeatable CTD in Indus era . .mini and save in zip

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

1) Wooden Ships have access to the Transport (Fighters) and Transport (Missiles) promotions. I now have a fleet of Privateers that launch jet fighters and nuclear missiles. Presumably with some manipulation of prerequisite buildings or long-term planning I could use a Canoe as an aircraft carrier or a missile cruiser.

2) While we're on the subject of ships and promotions, is there any particular reason only Wooden Ships have access to the Sea Hunter line? This is especially noticeable because subduing large sea animals only becomes possible after Marine Biology, which comes after Steam Power. Is there some reason Steam ships don't get the Sea Hunter line?

3) Lara Croft only has the Heroic and Gunpowder combat classes, and thus does not get the benefit of Great Military Instructors. Not sure if intended or not.

4) Continued from 4) in my previous post, I think the issue may stem from when arctic terrains were changed from Tundra/Ice to Taiga/Tundra/Permafrost. Chances are the workshop's terrain requirements didn't get updated with the rest.

5) Criminals you control can become Wanted in your own cities, and be arrested by your own units. Not sure if intended or not, though it does make sense in terms of realism. Just because the central government provides support and control to a criminal group doesn't mean local police know about it.

6) Svalbard Global Seed Vault wonder is missing quite a few crops, presumably because the wonder predates their addition and was never updated. Similarly, there's a few resources that the Great Farmer is incapable of placing. I know the Great Farmer mechanic is flawed for a variety of reasons anyway, but it's worth mentioning.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Repeatable CTD in Indus era . .mini and save in zip

I'll look into it soon.

1) Wooden Ships have access to the Transport (Fighters) and Transport (Missiles) promotions. I now have a fleet of Privateers that launch jet fighters and nuclear missiles. Presumably with some manipulation of prerequisite buildings or long-term planning I could use a Canoe as an aircraft carrier or a missile cruiser.

I've noticed that before so I'm glad you posted it here for eventual addressing.

2) While we're on the subject of ships and promotions, is there any particular reason only Wooden Ships have access to the Sea Hunter line? This is especially noticeable because subduing large sea animals only becomes possible after Marine Biology, which comes after Steam Power. Is there some reason Steam ships don't get the Sea Hunter line?

This one is for DH.

However, I'd like to add that after the earliest segments of the game, we stop having ships that are dedicated primarily to hunting (fishing rather.) I'm debating if we should either progress that line through fishing and whaling ships and such, or perhaps just work with promotions that attach the hunter unitcombat to naval vessels.

3) Lara Croft only has the Heroic and Gunpowder combat classes, and thus does not get the benefit of Great Military Instructors. Not sure if intended or not.

Probably correct considering she's not stated to be military trained (privately trained yes but not military.) Perhaps she should be counted as an Explorer.

5) Criminals you control can become Wanted in your own cities, and be arrested by your own units. Not sure if intended or not, though it does make sense in terms of realism. Just because the central government provides support and control to a criminal group doesn't mean local police know about it.

Splendid you noticed! Absolutely by design for the noted reasons (and for later intended eventual game effects and strategic manipulability.)

6) Svalbard Global Seed Vault wonder is missing quite a few crops, presumably because the wonder predates their addition and was never updated. Similarly, there's a few resources that the Great Farmer is incapable of placing. I know the Great Farmer mechanic is flawed for a variety of reasons anyway, but it's worth mentioning.

@DH I think.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

This one is for DH.

However, I'd like to add that after the earliest segments of the game, we stop having ships that are dedicated primarily to hunting (fishing rather.) I'm debating if we should either progress that line through fishing and whaling ships and such, or perhaps just work with promotions that attach the hunter unitcombat to naval vessels.

Another possibility that actually feels like it makes more sense is simply a dedicated ship unlocked at Marine Biology (Research Ship?) specifically for industrial-era and later sea hunting. For earlier ships, specialization for fishing/hunting basically is through promotion choice. Especially in an era before professional navies, it makes sense not to have a dedicated unit for it. That said, unlike land animal hunting, the subduing of large sea animals has very little practical effect. Even leaving aside the fact that most, if not all, games are won by that era, all they're good for is a few very minor / buildings. The resource-providing ones (crabs and fish) can be subdued at Commercial Whaling, while wooden ships are still widely available.

Probably correct considering she's not stated to be military trained (privately trained yes but not military.) Perhaps she should be counted as an Explorer.

Lara Croft: My mistake, she does get Explorer already as well, but does not get Civilian. Honestly, I only bring this up because I can't manage to train her with hundreds of XP right out of the gate like I can almost all other units . Really not an actual problem, especially considering how few games make it all the way to the modern era.

Splendid you noticed! Absolutely by design for the noted reasons (and for later intended eventual game effects and strategic manipulability.)

Now you've got me wondering about the possibilities of mass-producing cheap criminals for the sole purpose of being arrested in order to train Law Enforcement and provide a steady source of slaves (Captive - Military). I'll have to see if there's any way to abuse building or resource prerequisites like with the LE line...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Another possibility that actually feels like it makes more sense is simply a dedicated ship unlocked at Marine Biology (Research Ship?) specifically for industrial-era and later sea hunting. For earlier ships, specialization for fishing/hunting basically is through promotion choice. Especially in an era before professional navies, it makes sense not to have a dedicated unit for it. That said, unlike land animal hunting, the subduing of large sea animals has very little practical effect. Even leaving aside the fact that most, if not all, games are won by that era, all they're good for is a few very minor / buildings. The resource-providing ones (crabs and fish) can be subdued at Commercial Whaling, while wooden ships are still widely available.

It would still be good to have ships out there that are more vulnerable for pirates to prey on.

Furthermore, the only reason that games are generally won by that era is because the AI needs improving.

Lara Croft: My mistake, she does get Explorer already as well, but does not get Civilian. Honestly, I only bring this up because I can't manage to train her with hundreds of XP right out of the gate like I can almost all other units . Really not an actual problem, especially considering how few games make it all the way to the modern era.

I suppose this is different for me since I usually use my Great Hunters to dedicate to the food and explorer exp production for the city.

Now you've got me wondering about the possibilities of mass-producing cheap criminals for the sole purpose of being arrested in order to train Law Enforcement and provide a steady source of slaves (Captive - Military). I'll have to see if there's any way to abuse building or resource prerequisites like with the LE line...

lol... NOW you're thinking like a modern policy maker!