Single Player bugs and crashes v38 plus (SVN) - After the 20th of February 2018

[raxo2222]

You're saying nothing I don't know already.

You've made a lot of changes to the diseases, which are fine, but this one just isn't. Getting to those techs will take you over a hundred turns on the slowest speed, while your building speed is slowed down to a crawl. It makes no sense from a gaming perspective to just basically ruin nigthmare for almost all of the civilizations. I had to pick a happiness boost civ to have a normal game.

You can fix it by raising the common cold to hit at city size 2 or not have it hit from the start of the game. Or remove the unhappiness from it.


Also, just because the "common" cold is common today, it's actually over 200 different viruses that cause it - and it wouldn't have been common at all 200.000 years ago.

Build Alpha Female - it reduces disease.
One unhappiness shouldn't be worse than starting with only one tile.

Language takes only 23 turns to research on Eternity.

 

[Septimius]

Build Alpha Female - it reduces disease.
One unhappiness shouldn't be worse than starting with only one tile.

Language takes only 23 turns to research on Eternity.

You are all avoiding considering the fact that you've crippled certain civilizations from the beginning. Someone made these changes to diseases since last I played the game about a year ago. Back then you could pick any civ and not be crippled from the beginning.

If I wanted to start with one tile, I'd have chosen that in the options.

Disease is impossible to control on nightmare. At least unless you build several medic units.

And your numbers are incorrect for eternity nightmare. I can get back to you with a more precise number. Suffice it to say, you will build maybe one to three things and research one tech in the first 100 turns. That's daft gameplay.

Finally as I said, there's no evidence to corroborate that the common cold was that common throughout human pre-history. It's very likely transferred from animals, making it a sedentary virus - at least that's what all signs point towards today.

 

[raxo2222]

You are all avoiding considering the fact that you've crippled certain civilizations from the beginning. Someone made these changes to diseases since last I played the game about a year ago. Back then you could pick any civ and not be crippled from the beginning.

If I wanted to start with one tile, I'd have chosen that in the options.

Disease is impossible to control on nightmare. At least unless you build several medic units.

And your numbers are incorrect for eternity nightmare. I can get back to you with a more precise number. Suffice it to say, you will build maybe one to three things and research one tech in the first 100 turns. That's daft gameplay.

Finally as I said, there's no evidence to corroborate that the common cold was that common throughout human pre-history. It's very likely transferred from animals, making it a sedentary virus - at least that's what all signs point towards today.

Do you have SVN?
Research and construction costs are scaled only by globals and eras (gamespeed linearly scales everything).
Delete cache, its here: C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\My Games\Beyond the Sword

I can add one Happiness to nightmare though - players already have enough challenge: Fast but inefficient AI VS slow but efficient players.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You are all avoiding considering the fact that you've crippled certain civilizations from the beginning. Someone made these changes to diseases since last I played the game about a year ago. Back then you could pick any civ and not be crippled from the beginning.

If I wanted to start with one tile, I'd have chosen that in the options.

Disease is impossible to control on nightmare. At least unless you build several medic units.

And your numbers are incorrect for eternity nightmare. I can get back to you with a more precise number. Suffice it to say, you will build maybe one to three things and research one tech in the first 100 turns. That's daft gameplay.

Finally as I said, there's no evidence to corroborate that the common cold was that common throughout human pre-history. It's very likely transferred from animals, making it a sedentary virus - at least that's what all signs point towards today.

Serious question Septimus; why are other Nightmare deity players making a go of it but not you? Is it in fact a question of the Options you have chosen. Perhaps you should consider dropping down to Deity and assess if you are still having the same issues.

Nightmare Deity, at StrategyOnly's request, was made to be especially More difficult than regular Deity by a large margin.

It's been at least 4 or 5 months now since I last tried NM Deity but that was well after the changes you keep complaining about. I could play it and not be overwhelmed with Disease. And early disease can be mitigated with keeping your Education levels above 0. Once you hit -25 on education a whole new line of Bad Education starts piling up. Crime, Disease, and Education are closely intertwined now if you have not noticed.

So just sayin', tyr regular deity with your troubled Civs and see if the problem persists for you in the category of disease.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Do you have SVN?
Research and construction costs are scaled only by globals and eras (gamespeed linearly scales everything).
Delete cache, its here: C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\My Games\Beyond the Sword

I can add one Happiness to nightmare.

Raxxo leave it alone for now. Don't knee jerk react to every complaint with out proper investigation and research of the perceived problem. This type behavior has always caused problem for the mod in the long and short term.

 

[raxo2222]

Serious question Septimus; why are other Nightmare deity players making a go of it but not you? Is it in fact a question of the Options you have chosen. Perhaps you should consider dropping down to Deity and assess if you are still having the same issues.

Nightmare Deity, at StrategyOnly's request, was made to be especially More difficult than regular Deity by a large margin.

It's been at least 4 or 5 months now since I last tried NM Deity but that was well after the changes you keep complaining about. I could play it and not be overwhelmed with Disease. And early disease can be mitigated with keeping your Education levels above 0. Once you hit -25 on education a whole new line of Bad Education starts piling up. Crime, Disease, and Education are closely intertwined now if you have not noticed.

So just sayin', tyr regular deity with your troubled Civs and see if the problem persists for you in the category of disease.

He plays on Eternity and with negative traits, so any reaction to properties is very delayed - they have more time to saturate at some level.

Disease alone on Eternity without developing/negative traits wouldn't result in net of one unhappiness.

 

[Septimius]

Serious question Septimus; why are other Nightmare deity players making a go of it but not you? Is it in fact a question of the Options you have chosen. Perhaps you should consider dropping down to Deity and assess if you are still having the same issues.

Nightmare Deity, at StrategyOnly's request, was made to be especially More difficult than regular Deity by a large margin.

It's been at least 4 or 5 months now since I last tried NM Deity but that was well after the changes you keep complaining about. I could play it and not be overwhelmed with Disease. And early disease can be mitigated with keeping your Education levels above 0. Once you hit -25 on education a whole new line of Bad Education starts piling up. Crime, Disease, and Education are closely intertwined now if you have not noticed.

So just sayin', tyr regular deity with your troubled Civs and see if the problem persists for you in the category of disease.

I've played nightmare difficulty for years now. Never had a problem with it - and I've consistently been giving you critique on things that don't work or are inconsistent - and you have always acted as the resident "under-bridge-living" person in response to it. So nothing new there.

But I'm used to this type of replies here, based on the fact that few of you apparently play the game you make to see what your changes actually do. When you ask for us to reply with feedback, this is what we get...
IF you knew the game, you wouldn't show up with this kind of suggestions. Increase education? With what!? I'm talking about the beginning of the game here! The first education increase you can get is a step along the tech tree.

You have literally read nothing of what I've written Joe. So I will repeat myself - once the common cold hits (at disease -25 this is usually within a few turns) all civilizations go into negative happiness - unless they have a happiness boost trait. There is no way you can avoid this. None.
And civilizations with a negative happiness trait start out unhappy.

That is clearly a flawed design.


Also, your entire approach reminds me of the graveyard debate. I said it was crazy that you made it so expensive to build this one building and all you did was go "ALL IS PERFECT! NO CHANGE NECESSARY!"
Funnily enough it got changed to something more logical.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've played nightmare difficulty for years now. Never had a problem with it - and I've consistently been giving you critique on things that don't work or are inconsistent - and you have always acted as the resident "under-bridge-living" person in response to it. So nothing new there.

Totally uncalled for response, totally. And it's trolling.

And I asked for you to try it on Deity to see if it was happening there as well. But if trolling me is all that you can do, then what do you think I will do?

As for playing the Game. I seriously doubt you have put Half the time into playing it over the past 10 years that I have. Actually I doubt even 1/5 the time!

I read it, and I asked you to do some research. I under stand frustration, believe me I do. But bashing me is Not going to get me to help you, especially when you cheap shot with things like this, "resident "under-bridge-living" person" .

And the Disease Common Cold does not come into play until Disease level hits + 25, Not -25. At least that is the way I Had it set up before. Unless Raxxo in his exuberance has changed the Whole Disease property entry levels. I had to step away for the past 4 months so I may not be fully caught up on all raxxo's changes, they are myriad!

Now you ready to apologize so we can work this out? Or will you continue to denigrate me? Your choice.

EDIT: Please post your Save game. I did not see one in your previous posts.

 

[Septimius]

He plays on Eternity and with negative traits, so any reaction to properties is very delayed - they have more time to saturate at some level.

Disease alone on Eternity without developing/negative traits wouldn't result in net of one unhappiness.

Ok, I've started up a game to check out what the latest SVN does.


On nightmare etiernity, without the expansive/megalomaniac trait your civ becomes unhappy once the common cold hits, which is around five turns into the game. You can head towards language to get +1 happiness, but with education unaware setting in, giving you a long list of negatives, you're going to spend 30 turns researching the first tech and 45 turns building the first building. That one unhappiness basically slows your game down to a crawl from the get-go.

From the start you get +1 happiness from government and +2 from the palace, anything apart from that needs to be from traits. You get -1 from housing homeless, -1 per pop, -1 from difficulty and common cold gives you -1 once it hits at 25 disease. You start out getting around +6-7 disease per turn, so by turn 4-5 all civs are unhappy unless they have positive traits.

With expansive/megalomaniac, your civ starts unhappy and will stay so for a long ass time.

Adding one happiness to nightmare makes it overall easier, that's not what I'm asking for. But making common cold hit later, will help resolve this problem. Just set it to hit size 2 cities and the issue goes away - except for the negative happiness traits, but that only lasts till you've researched language.

 

[raxo2222]

Adding one happiness to nightmare makes it overall easier, that's not what I'm asking for. But making common cold hit later, will help resolve this problem. Just set it to hit size 2 cities and the issue goes away.

Your suggestion is much more disruptive: Common Cold is in all games, and your case is worst possible case - Gigantic/Nightmare/Eternity/Developing Traits (not sure about that) with Negative and without Pure Traits and Revolutions.
Not everyone would play on this combination.

So I preferred to remove unhappines from Nightmare making it on par with Deity, when it comes to this tag to help with edge case.
Still Nightmare is way harder than Deity.

 

[Septimius]

Totally uncalled for response, totally. And it's trolling.


Now you ready to apologize so we can work this out? Or will you continue to denigrate me? Your choice.

EDIT: Please post your Save game. I did not see one in your previous posts.

So you start out by questioning whether I'm even capable of playing nightmare - which you also did last time I brought up something completely fair. Then you go on about something completely unrelated and end up urging your colleague to not "knee-jerk react" to "this type of behavior". Which you also did last time and the time before that. It is entirely appropriate to point out that you're repeating yourself.

You obviously have NO IDEA what you're writing, or you wouldn't get into these repeat situations Joe. But I expect you to behave like this, because I've seen it over and over and over again. The difference is I won't allow you to bully or denigrate me, just because you think you aren't doing it.

I have found a legitimate problem with the start of the game. Try and run a nightmare eternity game for five turns with any civ that doesn't have a positive happiness trait and you will see what I'm talking about. And I tell you this not to break your balls, but to help - something that is ill received on this website, for some unfathomable reason.

 

[Septimius]

Your suggestion is much more disruptive: Common Cold is in all games, and your case is worst possible case - Gigantic/Nightmare/Eternity/Developing Traits (not sure about that) with Negative and without Pure Traits and Revolutions.
Not everyone would play on this combination.

So I preferred to remove unhappines from Nightmare making it on par with Deity, when it comes to this tag to help with edge case.
Still Nightmare is way harder than Deity.

That would work... And thank you for what seems to be an otherwise finely balanced game disease and crime-wise. I'm pretty far into the neolithic and it's bad, but not murdering me. I also like that happiness is more important now.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So you start out by questioning whether I'm even capable of playing nightmare - which you also did last time I brought up something completely fair. Then you go on about something completely unrelated and end up urging your colleague to not "knee-jerk react" to "this type of behavior". Which you also did last time and the time before that. It is entirely appropriate to point out that you're repeating yourself.

You obviously have NO IDEA what you're writing, or you wouldn't get into these repeat situations Joe. But I expect you to behave like this, because I've seen it over and over and over again. The difference is I won't allow you to bully or denigrate me, just because you think you aren't doing it.

I have found a legitimate problem with the start of the game. Try and run a nightmare eternity game for five turns with any civ that doesn't have a positive happiness trait and you will see what I'm talking about. And I tell you this not to break your balls, but to help - something that is ill received on this website, for some unfathomable reason.

Okay you persist with the bashing. Fine. Trolling will not be tolerated.

 

[Thunderbrd]

IIRC, the common cold WAS just -1 unhealth and unhappiness had nothing to do with it. I don't know that it should either. Unhappiness is, IMO, something the citizenry must be able to blame on the government. -1 Production would represent the loss of productivity from a Cold better IMO. Better still -5% production. Anyhow, that seems to be the thing that strikes me that would've changed recently.

 

[raxo2222]

IIRC, the common cold WAS just -1 unhealth and unhappiness had nothing to do with it. I don't know that it should either. Unhappiness is, IMO, something the citizenry must be able to blame on the government. -1 Production would represent the loss of productivity from a Cold better IMO. Better still -5% production. Anyhow, that seems to be the thing that strikes me that would've changed recently.

Joseph changed it back in January (SVN 9832).
He revised diseases back then.

Handicaps were revised later.

 

[JosEPh_II]

IIRC, the common cold WAS just -1 unhealth and unhappiness had nothing to do with it. I don't know that it should either. Unhappiness is, IMO, something the citizenry must be able to blame on the government. -1 Production would represent the loss of productivity from a Cold better IMO. Better still -5% production. Anyhow, that seems to be the thing that strikes me that would've changed recently.

Various diseases have always had unhappiness as well as Unhealthiness. And many had -1 production yield or more as well. And as Raxxo pointed out Diseases were updated back in January when DH said he was okay with it. And many more players and Modders, including you T-brd, were asking for Diseases to be more in depth.

And now this is a problem? Because Leaders give too much unhappiness with their negative traits? A concern that has been here since SgtSlick redid Traits. All from Septimus is saying it's a design flaw because it makes him have a rough time on NMD? And we've known the traits had problems for all this time. But now it's a Critical problem because a user of NMD says so? Really?!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Various diseases have always had unhappiness as well as Unhealthiness. And many had -1 production yield or more as well. And as Raxxo pointed out Diseases were updated back in January when DH said he was okay with it. And many more players and Modders, including you T-brd, were asking for Diseases to be more in depth.

And now this is a problem? Because Leaders give too much unhappiness with their negative traits? A concern that has been here since SgtSlick redid Traits. All from Septimus is saying it's a design flaw because it makes him have a rough time on NMD? And we've known the traits had problems for all this time. But now it's a Critical problem because a user of NMD says so? Really?!

I'm really not sure why you're getting worked up. This isn't personal. I don't advocate starting with traits either. One should develop them as you go or you're likely to have balance issues at the beginning of the game.

As for the disease, I don't care who's responsible for the change - it was an impartial consideration to mention that unhappiness is probably not the best thing to apply to disease so much as other modifiers. I personally tend to think of unhappiness and gold penalties as the realm of crime and unhealth and production penalties as the realm of disease. That there is some crossover in these themes on occasion is cool as well just to shake things up, as well as other mods being used on occasion, but those things should be the core issues with crimes and diseases imo. Again, I'm not being super critical about that either... was just a suggestion as to what we can do with this.

In the end, it IS important to keep the unhappiness balance that @Septimius is talking about at the beginning of the game from the tipping point he's pointing to, so we do need to ensure that a one point adjustment takes place. I don't think he's trying to say that negative traits are to blame. From what he's saying, it sounds as if this is an issue when there is no traits or no negative traits and only those civs that get a happiness bonus from traits are avoiding the problem. That means we're just one point too severe at our most severe setting at the beginning of the game. It's not kneejerking to respond to this with some adjustment somewhere.

I just know that when the common cold didn't have an unhappiness penalty, this wasn't an issue. I would prefer to remove that penalty from the common cold than to lose the disease being a factor out the gate as he suggests (because doing that means no disease matters until later in the game so why bother to try to control it as quickly as you can and why bother to try to obtain the means to control it asap?) The alternative of adjusting the base unhappiness for the difficulty is also equally as functional. I don't care the solution much but the problem IS a legitimate one if what he's saying is true and accurate and requires an adjustment somewhere.

 

[Harrier]

Also, just because the "common" cold is common today, it's actually over 200 different viruses that cause it - and it wouldn't have been common at all 200.000 years ago.

Or even +/- 600 years ago. The Mediterrainian - European common cold (from Spain), wiped out a lot of South American's. Not warfare.

 

[raxo2222]

I just know that when the common cold didn't have an unhappiness penalty, this wasn't an issue. I would prefer to remove that penalty from the common cold than to lose the disease being a factor out the gate as he suggests (because doing that means no disease matters until later in the game so why bother to try to control it as quickly as you can and why bother to try to obtain the means to control it asap?) The alternative of adjusting the base unhappiness for the difficulty is also equally as functional. I don't care the solution much but the problem IS a legitimate one if what he's saying is true and accurate and requires an adjustment somewhere.

I removed unhappiness from Nightmare (Deity has zero happiness too), and no Deity players complained about unhappiness even if they had worst combination of options.
Nightmare is way harder than Deity anyway, so it was best place to adjust things.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm really not sure why you're getting worked up. This isn't personal.

Please stop this. Please, read my response without adding perceived emotions to it, Please. This just perpetuates this stigma that has become attached to any of my posts. It is time for it to stop, Please. And I am not "worked up". It's all because I questioned a NMD player that this whole thing just keeps going.

Did anyone ask him for his set up Options? I asked for a save game and got another bad response. No save game has been supplied. There are way too many variables that could be contributing to his problem. And that is not being dismissive either but rather trying to gather information.

If he is now happy with Raxxo's fix then this subject is now dead. And I will not bother with it anymore.