Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

[Faustmouse]

Ok then, go ahead. I forgot that this will be implented over time

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes. We will come to buildings later. The general plan is:

1) CC's -> Waiting for general approval

2) Units -> Adjusting units will require "fixed" CC values since for example a Mounted Infantry will right now have a value based on: Mounted + Horse + Melee + Combatant. So when I want the Mounted Infantry to let's say start with 10% capture chance, I have to calculate it's base value now (which is 30% just from the CC's) and then give him a -20%.

3) Promotions -> Review Promotions to see which might get a bonus/malus for capturing (iE Berzerk will get a malus for capturing but bonus for resistance) and develope new Promotion Lines.

4) Buildings and Civics since they are the most global thing.

Might I suggest the following chain of development events:
1) Finish with CCs. As this forms a lot of great generic underlying modifiers for units this was a good place to start. Implement.

2) Civics (and WORLDVIEW buildings only) should be reviewed. I think you'll find that a quick review of our civics will make for an easy and greatly impacting place to include a great deal of generic sweeping modifiers that then helps, like the CCs to give us a platform upon which the rest of the modifiers will make more sense.

3) Units: You're right about the way to calculate them but I'd leave most of them to their Combat Class modifiers to determine things. Try to modify units based more than anything on their ROLE. If the unit is designed to capture (beyond the considerations already given to their combat classes) or slay outright, represent this with a +/- modifier on the unit. If it's more or less likely to be able to resist (beyond the considerations already given to their combat classes) then assign a modifier to represent. If you find yourself shrugging when thinking about a particular unit it's probably best to leave it unmodified. If you find the cause for modifier is something that may not have been previously considered when considering the combat class but should be considered there instead, be open to adjusting the CC again.

4) Promotions as you stated

5) Wonders and National Wonders

6) Specific buildings



Oh... you'd asked me about similar unfinished mechanisms and I ran across workers... there's still a bit to do there to modify worker native abilities (varying particularly among the different types of animal assisted workers) and flesh out promos too. So that would be the next project up after this one if your up to it! That project came to a full stop mid-development a while back and needs to eventually be fleshed out here.

 

[Faustmouse]

Ok, makes sense as well!
But I haven't fully understood what you are trying to say in the units part.
So you would let most units as they are (only influenced by their CCs) but edit these few that deserve more/less capturing chance? Like UUs and such?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Exactly.

 

[Faustmouse]

AH well, this will surely decrease the amount of work. Great! And any idea how to calculate the current (based on CCs) modifiers easily? Could you use the UNITCOMBATCLASS_MELEE and such as variables so you can automate the calculation with the help of your google doc or do I have to do it per hand?

And yes, these workers would be a cool new project after this one!

 

[Thunderbrd]

AH well, this will surely decrease the amount of work. Great! And any idea how to calculate the current (based on CCs) modifiers easily? Could you use the UNITCOMBATCLASS_MELEE and such as variables so you can automate the calculation with the help of your google doc or do I have to do it per hand?

And yes, these workers would be a cool new project after this one!

Well... you COULD but it might take a bit to setup as you'd have to make links and such. Databases tend to handle that better than spreadsheets would. And my understanding of database programming ends at Access which is pretty much useless here given how many tags a given info often maintains overloads the tables there. It could be done to set things up yes but... ugh. I gave up on that in preference for making actual modding headway.

For units... I'd think only in terms of modifiers until you see them in-game and something doesn't seem to fit about the compiled values you'll see on trained units manifested into the game there.

 

[Faustmouse]

So you wouldn't use a spreadsheet for units at all? I think that sounds fine at first... I will make a table for the civics (If I can acutally make a table ) later today.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... I WOULD but I wouldn't worry about using it to add up their final tallies so much as just to track their individual modifiers.

When I design I'm not usually as concerned about the final results because I'll get to see those in-game. If I've been rational and reasonable with all the modifiers that add into the whole then I'll usually be pleased with the overall results.

I know that some units were historically trained specifically to capture units - those I'd give a healthy modifier of something like 20-25% to. But most units were multi-purpose - few were specified for capturing or NOT capturing. Extra Resistance may be suitable for highly loyal units such as perhaps knights and crusaders. I'd think about each unit and try to eliminate the considerations that have already been made when assigning values to the combat classes those units possess. This would leave few units really with individual modifiers I think. That said, training and skill development (promos) would allow the player to determine some units to be more or less useful for capturing or for resisting. I can see Criminals having a very strong capture resistance line that stems from a willingness to commit suicide rather than accept capture among some organizations. That doesn't mean all criminals would be this way though... some would be quite spineless and willing to accept capture.

To that end... maybe we should have a set of interrogation missions that can be used on captives (they'd have to be able to 'remember' (store on the unit data) the last player that owned the unit that became a captive to pull this off of course.) We could then interrogate them for espionage against that player... The method of interrogation (being torture or other method) could determine the outcome in combination with the old unit's capture resistance considered as well. Could be an interesting eventual development. Could also be some diplomatic maneuvers we could develop with captives too. Trade them back for a diplo bonus or for captives they are holding and when returned, the original unit is recovered... hmm...

Perhaps a little premature to bring these ideas up now though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

StolenRays has some interesting stuff on things to do after you have captured units, including prisoner exchange and ransom. Both need to know where the captive came from. So there may be some useful stuff there. He does dll code.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, I'd think you'd HAVE to implement it in the dll so that you could get the unit to recall the old unit it once was. At some point it might be worthwhile to integrate the whole captive mechanism not only into the dll but into a cohesive package that considers all the different ways we can capture as well. But when I do figure it's time to go down this road I'll certainly be happy to take a look at StolenRay's methods. I think I can imagine much of it offhand but he may have some more good ideas along those lines too.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You can store information from Python in the save game it is just that every time I have tried I have broken stuff.

 

[Faustmouse]

Here is a list of our current civics:

Spoiler :

Goverment

Spoiler :

Anarchism............None
Chiefdom-............Chiefdom
Despotism............Bronze Working
Monarchy.............Monarchy
Republic.............Democracy
Theocracy............Theology
Democracy............Representative Democracy
Totalitarism.........Facism
Technocracy..........Virtual Society

Rule

Spoiler :

Obedience............None
City States..........Masonry
Magistrates..........Code of Law
Meriocracy...........Meriocracy
Bureaucracy..........Civil Service
Vassalage............Vassalage
Confederacy..........Leadership
Federal..............Rifling
Martial Law..........Facism
Grid.................Computer Netsworks
Mind Control.........Thought Scanning

Power

Spoiler :

Strongman............None
Matriarchy...........Matriarchy
Patriacrry...........Patriarchy
Junta................Bronze Working
Souvereignity........Monarchy
Legislature..........Democracy
Divinge Right........Divine Right
Seperation of Powers.Representative Democracy
Single Party.........Facism

Society

Spoiler :

Primitive............None
Tribal...............Tribalism
Caste................Caste System
Bourgeois............Aristocracy
Proletariat..........Democracy
Feudal...............Feudalism
Egalitarian..........Liberal
Nationalist..........Nationalism
Marxist..............Marxism
Corpor-Nation........Megacorporations

Economy

Spoiler :

Communalism..........None
Barter...............Barter
Subsistence..........Pottery
Trade................Trade
Guilds...............Guilds
Mercantile...........Mercantillism
Free Markets.........Economy
Corporist............Industrialism
Planned..............Communism
Regulated............Applied Economy
Green................Ecology

Military

Spoiler :

Militia...............None
Banditry............
Tribal Warfare........Tribalism
Conscription..........Military Training
Mercenaries...........Currency
Pacifism..............Philosophy
Vassalage.............Feudalism
Volunteer Army........Social Contract
Unmanned Warfare......Military Robotics
Cloning...............Gene Enhancement
Time Drafting.........Time Travel

Religion

Spoiler :

Irreligion.............None
Folklore...............Ritualism
Divine Cult............Mysticism
Prophets...............Divination
State Religion.........Monotheism
Free Church............Papacy
Intolerant.............Fundamentalism
Secular................Humanism
Atheism................Compulsonary Education

Welfare

Spoiler :

Survival...............None
Charitiy...............Trade
Church.................Meditation
Public Work............City Planning
Private................Urury
Subsidized.............Representative Democracy
Corporate..............Assembly Line
Socialized.............Labor Union
Paradise...............Ecological Engineering
Superhuman.............Homo Superior

Religion

Spoiler :

Garbage Anywhere........None
Burn Garbage............Fire Making
Waste to Sea............Seafaring
Landfills...............Sanitation
Waste Import............Economy
Waste Export............Economy
Waste to Energy.........Industrialism
Off-Planet Duming.......Astronautics

Immigration

Spoiler :

No Boarders.............None
Open Boarders...........Alphabet
Closed Boarders.........Alphabet
Skilled Workers only....Applied Economics
Secure Boarders.........Applied Economics

Education

Spoiler :

Ignorance...............None
Oral Tradition..........Oral Tradition
Written Tradition.......Writing
Military Tradition......Military Training
Religenous Training.....Theology
Apprenticeship..........Guilds
Corporate Education.....Corporations
Compulsory Education....Compulsory Education
Propaganda..............Facism
E-Education.............Computer Networks
Timetrave Education.....Time Travel

Language

Spoiler :

No Language.............None
Native Language.........Language
Trade Language..........Trade
Interprets..............Writing
Language Education......Compulsory Education
Universal Translator....Universal Translator

Agriculture

Spoiler :

No Agriculture..........None
Subsistence Agriculture.Agriculture
Agricultural Guilds.....Guilds
Corporate Agriculture...Corporation
Privatized Agriculture..Economics
Subsidized Agriculture..Representative Democracy
State-run Agriculture...Communism
Green Agriculture.......Ecology

Currency

Spoiler :

No Currency.............None
Metals..................Mining
Coinage.................Currency
Banknote................Banking
Paper Money.............Printing Press
Gold Standard...........Nationalism
FIAT Currency...........Replaceable Parts
Credit..................Applied Economics
Digital.................Communication Networks

Labor

Spoiler :

Unorganized Labor........None
Community Labor..........Tribalsim (or was it moved to Community?)
Skilled Labor............Currency
Serf Labor...............Feudalism
Capitalist...............Corporation
Centralized Labor........Marxism
Socialized Labor.........Labor Union
Post Labor...............Androids

I'm too tired to have a closer look now. But I'd say that we could skip Labor, Currency, Agriculture, Language, Waste, Economy and maybe Immigration. They shouldn't add anything to Capturing. Do you agree with me here?
I must admit that I have very little knowledge about all these Civics. If there is someone who knows a lot, please suggest something! It doesn't need to be a whole list, and it can always be adjusted, just don't be shy.

 

[Yudishtira]

I think Labour and Agriculture both badly need options that emphasize slaves, which then give a capture bonus. As they stand I agree with you, you can ignore them...

 

[Faustmouse]

Oh, that is true of course! I forgot that capturing would be increased when you badly need slaves.

 

[Faustmouse]

First set of civics. I bet you have A LOT of objections, so please tell me

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Government
Anarchism|-20|-30
Chiefdom|-5|-5
Despotism|-10| -15
Monarchy|10| 5
Republic| 10| 15
Theocracy| -10| 20
Democracy| 15| 25
Totalitarism|-15| -20|
Technocracy| 0| 10

Rule
Obedience |20| -20
City States| 5| 10
Magistrates| 0| -5
Meritocracy| -10| 20
Bureaucracy| -15| -15
Vassalage| 25| -10
Confederacy| 15| 5
Federal| -10| 0
Martial Law| 10| 15
Grid| 0| 50|Needs further discussion
Mind Control| 30| 100

Power
Strongman| 10| 10
Matriarchy| 20 |-10
Patriacrry| 10| 10
Junta| -20| 20
Souvereignity| 0| -10
Legislature| 10| -10
Divinge Right| 10| 30
Seperation of Powers| 0| 0| was -30/-20 before TB suggested 0/0 (Needs further discussion)
Single Party| -0| 0 | was -30/50 before TB suggested 0/0 (Needs further discussion)

Society
Primitive| -10| -10
Tribal | -10| 20
Caste| 10| 20
Bourgeois| 0| -30
Proletariat | 30| -20
Feudal| 20| 10
Egalitarian| 0| -20
Nationalist| 20| 30
Marxist| 10| 10
Corpor-Nation| 0| 0

As I said, I have not much knowledge about civics. Most choices were made based on how strict the form of goverment is. If you add all starting civics together, they even out at -40% Chance but also -40% Resistance, so if these two units fight against each other, the standard value is used.
Comments are very appreciated!

 

[Faustmouse]

And the second set:

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Economy
Communalism|0|0
Barter|0|0
Subsistence|0| 0
Trade|10| 0
Guilds| 0| 0
Mercantile| 0| 0
Free Markets| 0| 0
Corporist|0| 0
Planned| 0| 0
Regulated|0| 0
Green| 0| 0

Military
Militia |-20| -20
Banditry| 30| -15
Tribal Warfare| 10| 20
Conscription| 10| -10
Mercenaries| 30| -30
Pacifism| 20| -40|
Vassalage| 0| 10|
Volunteer Army| 20| 30
Unmanned Warfare| -50| 25|
Cloning| -30| 50

Religion
Irreligion| 0| 0
Folklore| 0 |0
Divine Cult| 20| 10
Prophets| 10| 0
State Religion| 0| 10
Free Church| 0| 0
Intolerant| -50| 30
Secular| 0| 0
Atheism| -10| -10

Education
Ignorance| 0| 0
Oral Tradition | 0| 0
Written Tradition| 0| 0
Military Tradition| 10| 15
Religenous Training | 5| 10
Apprenticeship| 0| 0
Corporate Education| 0| 0
Compulsory Education| 0| 0
Propaganda| 15| 25
E-Education| 0| 0

Welfare, Garbage, Language, Currency, Labor shouldn't influence Capturing chance at all IMO.
Agriculture... MAYBE. But adding capturing chances/restitences there seems a bit redundant.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Grid No idea what that is

Grid is basically Big Brother in an Orwellian 1984 type of surveillance and monitoring of its people.

 

[Yudishtira]

Government:
Despotism/Theocracy/Totalitarian: you are assuming these civics will be unpopular with outsiders and their expectations of their treatment under them will be low. Such attitudes (imo) were quite rare prior to the 20th century, and there are heaps of exceptions even now (eg. Tibet is a theocracy). I would argue for no more than 5-15% resistances - if any.

By the same token, I would expect the more ideological the civic, the more emphasis on trying to take captives there would be. So I would argue for bonuses to capture for Despotism, Theocracy, Totalitarian and Chiefdom (and Monarchy which you've already got), no modifier on Republic (republics can be very liberal eg. Athens or very regimented eg. Rome) and penalties for Democracy and Technocracy.

 

[Faustmouse]

@Yudishtira: Thanks for the feedback. So more something like this?

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Goverment
Anarchism|-20|-30
Chiefdom|5|5
Despotism|10| -5
Monarchy|10| 20
Republic| 0| -20
Theocracy| -10| 30
Democracy| -20| -25
Totalitarism|15| -10
Technocracy| 40| -30

 

[Yudishtira]

@Yudishtira: Thanks for the feedback. So more something like this?

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Goverment
Anarchism|-20|-30
Chiefdom|5|5
Despotism|10| -5
Monarchy|10| 20
Republic| 0| -20
Theocracy| -10| 30
Democracy| -20| -25
Totalitarism|15| -10
Technocracy| 40| -30

except:
Theocracy +10% capture chance; 5-15% resistance
Technocracy 0 to -15% capture chance