Sleep, an old thread that got spam-bumped

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I take sleep seriously.
I’ll say.

My neighbor has all kinds of doodads and LED lights that are voice-activated and set for moods, etc. It’s like he lives in The Jetsons and I in The Flintstones.

I think my one weakness so to speak is that I need a body pillow to rest sideways on. I can’t sleep on my back.
 
I sleep two to four hours per night. Six if I am really tired. I'm one of these lucky (?) people who doesn't seem to need a lot of sleep. Usually more than four hours and I'm a groggy mess.

The exception to the rule is when I am sick. Then I can sleep all day and night. I sort of sleep off the illness, as it were.
 
I've been sleeping fairly well, by my standards, recently. I'm typically asleep within about 1/2hr of going to bed. I always wake up for a bathroom visit a couple times a night. And that's true whether I have any beer in the evening or not. Noises outside my room do not wake me up. Noises inside do.

When I was in college halls I once slept through a fire alarm but when the warden tried my door I woke up immediately.
 
When I was in college halls I once slept through a fire alarm but when the warden tried my door I woke up immediately.


That would be similar to how I sleep. I had an apartment for 10 years 2 blocks from the police-fire station in a town of over 50k people. There must have been a lot of emergency calls at night that didn't wake me. When I stay with my relatives in Maine, it's an old house which is close to a main road, so the logging trucks start running by about 4am 40mph slowing to enter town, and the open front window is not more than a dozen feet from the road. Never woke me up.

But the wrong noise inside can bring me wide awake instantly.
 
I get occasional insomnia, can be a light sleeper, and need a bit of quiet to fall asleep (or a white noise fan or something like that). Some people fall asleep to the TV or music and I think that's insane. My brain is not built like that, if there's voices, then my brain will hone in on that like a mofo and analyze it. If there's irregular sounds, same thing, but the results can vary. The only sound that's always okay is something constant like a fan or a white noise machine. Rain can be okay too, but rain is too random. You'll hear a SPLOOSH here and the a splat there. My brain wakes up right away when it notices such differences. It wants to analyze the pattern. If it's a steady hum from a fan, there is nothing to analyze, it's a simple repeating pattern, so I can sleep that just fine. Took me a bit to get used to it, but now I do it every night. It helps drown out any sounds during the night or in the morning, which my brain would of course begin to analyze, if they were loud enough.

Lately I have not been sleeping well. It's a bit of a cycle. I am not a morning person and clock into work at 10am. Have been for over a decade. Leave an hour later than everybody else (they come in for 9). It takes me like 2 hours to wake up fully, and not really. I feel the most alert at 11pm. That's when I've finally woken up. So.. I'm supposed to go to bed when I'm wide awake and just basically finished waking up? You can see where I'm going with this. When this cycle begins, it's not easy to snap out of. Yesterday I was sleepy throughout the day, but then felt fine by 9-10pm. I tried to go to sleep at 12:30, just after midnight, but tossed and turned for like an hour an a half. Then I woke up at 3:30am and was wide awake for some reason.

When I am on the road I require less sleep for some reason. When I'm on my trips I will wake up at 7am and go to bed at midnight or 1am or something like that. I find it tough sometimes to fall asleep in foreign beds (i.e. any bed that isn't mine), so sleeping in fancy hotels even can be a pain. But for some reason I will wake up at 7am, almost like I'm programmed to do so, and just get up and feel fine. Yeah, a bit sleepy, but I'll have a coffee and be fine, ready to explore the city, or whatever. It's so different from the way I usually am here, I require at least 2 super strong coffees.. and I try to not drink too many of those and stick to one strong coffee a day these days, as it's not good for me (and it's not good for sleep, too much caffeine messes up your sleeping cycle or whatever)

Meditation has helped me somewhat in this regard. I use "Insight timer" which is a free app created by hippies. You can just type in "sleep" into the search box and up will come all these guided meditations that will help you get in the "mood" for sleep. Those work okay for me. Usually meditation relaxes me, no matter what kind of meditation it is, and that helps me sleep, so I was doing that for a while. They also have these soothing sounds you can fall asleep to, which I was doing for a while too.. but I don't like falling asleep with earbuds in my ears. I don't have any good ones right now anyway, and one time in Vietnam I got an ear infection that way. I also always sleep on my side. So.. I'll meditate before I sleep, and then take the earbuds out, and try to use my more relaxed state of mind to fall asleep.

Somebody suggested melotonin, so I bought some, and was taking a double microdose a night or so. Some recommended amount. Did it work? I have no idea. The first week not much changed, then I was sleeping better for 2 weeks, then worse for 2 weeks, and then I ran out of the melotonin. So basically.. it might have worked, but who the hell knows.

I got new bedsheets, which helped me sleep too. Fresh sheets get me in the mood, if you know what I mean. But you can't just buy new sheets every two weeks. First of all that's bad on the environment, and second of all it seems like a waste of money.

Sleep has never made sense to me, I wish they would just figure out what the hell it's even for already. You lie down and are completely vulnerable to predator attack for 8 hours while you're hallucinating that you're helping Wayne Gretzky build a go cart out of pop tarts. Then you wake up and forget all your dreams. How did our ancestors even sleep on trees and in caves? With no pillows and no bed sheets? How the hell did any of this evolve and for what reason? It would be good if they figure this all out soon and give us a pill we can take instead.

Don't get me wrong, when sleep works out, it can be so nice. I remember being able to just sort of slowly descent into a sleeping paradise. I would feet it coming, like a sort of approaching wave of REM ecstacy. It would slowly take over your body and when you woke up at the perfect time in the morning, without waking up in the middle of the night, you felt GREAT.

So yeah, I've had it up to here with sleep. It's a big waste of time and it's stupid. The only good thing about it are lucid dreams, which I don't get anymore.
 
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@warpus Perhaps you are missing stages that are important. You should go see a sleep doc and have them track your patterns for a few nights.

Here are the stages of sleep.

Stages of Sleep: The Sleep Cycle
There are five stages of sleep during the sleep cycle. Scientists categorized the stages of sleep based on the characteristics of the brain and body during sleep. Stage 1,2,3, and 4, are categorized as ‘non-REM sleep’, and the fifth stage, is REM sleep. Generally, brainwave frequencies and amplitudes from an electroencephelogram (EEG) are used to differentiate the different stages of sleep, along with other biologic rhythms including eye movements (EOG) and muscle movements (EMG).

Non-REM Sleep of the Sleep Cycle
Stage 1 Sleep
Stage 1 of the sleep cycle is the lightest stage of sleep. The EEG brain frequency is slightly slower than during wake time. There is muscle tone present in the skeletal muscles. Breathing occurs at a regular rate.

Stage 2 Sleep
Stage 2 usually follow Stage 1 and represents deeper sleep. During Stage 2 sleep, the sleeper is less able to be awakened. Stage 2 sleep is characterized by 'saw tooth waves' and sleep spindles.

Stage 3 and 4 Sleep - Deep Sleep
Stage 3 and Stage 4 sleep of the sleep cycle are progressively deeper stages of sleep. These stages of sleep are also called ‘Slow Wave Sleep’ (SWS), or delta sleep. During SWS, the EEG shows a much slower frequency with high amplitude signals (delta waves). A sleeper in SWS is often difficult to awaken. Some studies have demonstrated that very loud noises, sometimes over 100 decibels, will not awaken some during SWS. As humans get older they spend less time in slow wave deep sleep and more time in Stage 2 sleep.

Slow-wave sleep is generally referred to as deep sleep, and is comprised of the deepest stage of NREM. In stage three we see the greatest arousal thresholds, such as difficulty in awakening, and so on. After being awoken, the person will generally feel quite groggy, and cognitive tests that have been administered after being awoken from the third stage show that for up to half an hour or so, and when compared to awakenings from the other stages, mental performance is moderately impaired. This is a phenomenon known as sleep inertia. When sleep deprivation has occurred there’s generally a sharp rebound of slow-wave sleep, which suggests that there’s a need for slow-wave sleep. It now appears that slow-wave sleep is a highly active state, and not a brain quiescence as previously believed. In fact, brain imaging data shows that regional brain activity during non-REM sleep is influenced by the most recent waking experience

Stage 5 Sleep (REM Sleep) of the Sleep Cycle
Stage 5 of the sleep cycle, or REM sleep, is the stage of sleep associated with dreaming. It is very different physiologically from the other stages of sleep. The EEG resembles wake time. However, the skeletal muscles are atonic, or without movement. The breathing is more erratic and irregular. The heart rate often increases. It is theorized that muscle atonia evolved in order to protect the individual from injury during sleep.

sleep-study-data-300x195.jpg


K-Complexes and Sleep Spindles
Spindle activity is exclusive to NREM sleep, with most occurring at the start and end of NREM. Sleep spindles engage brain activation in the superior temporal gyri, anterior cingulate, insular cortices and the thalamus. Sleep spindles have different lengths; with slow spindles associated with an increase in activity in the area known as the superior frontal gyrus ranging between 11 and 13 Hz, and fast spindles associated with the recruitment of both the hippocampus and the mesial frontal cortex and the sensorimotor processing cortical regions ranging between 13 and 15 Hz. At this point in time it’s not clear what is meant by these sleep spindles, but it’s hoped that ongoing research will reveal their function.

Defining K-Complexes
K-Complexes are also exclusive to NREM sleep, and can be defined as single long delta waves lasting for only a second. Like sleep spindles, they appear automatically during the early stages of sleep, generally in stage two. However, K-Complexes can be induced at will by momentary noises, such as someone knocking on a door. Further research must be conducted on K-Complexes because their function is currently unknown.

Dreaming during NREM
During REM sleep, study participants reported both intense dream vividness and improved memory of dreams which occurred during that phase, which suggests that dreaming typically occurs REM sleep: we know that dreaming also occurs during NREM sleep; however, in comparison, these dreams appear to be more mundane. We also know that dreams that occur during the NREM stage of sleep typically occur after midnight, which happens to be the time-period with the highest rate of REM sleep. This was discovered by a study whereby subjects took naps over specific periods of time and were then forcefully woken: sleep was divided into –

  • naps with only REM sleep, and
  • naps with only NREM sleep using polysomnography.
The implication here is that the occurrence of REM sleep is not necessary for dreaming, but rather that the actual processes creating REM sleep result in alterations to a person’s sleep experience.

By morning, and because of these changes, there occurs a sub-cortical activation that’s comparable to the one that occurs during REM sleep. Therefore, during the morning hours in the NREM stage it’s the sub-cortical activation that causes dreaming.

thumb__stellate_harmonie.jpg


Non-REM Muscle Movements
The tonic drive to the majority of the upper airway’s respiratory muscles is repressed during non-REM sleep, with the following consequences –

  • Due to the intracellular calcium levels being lowered, weakened muscle contractions are caused by rhythmic innervation. Motoneurons are hyperpolarized by tonic innervation being removed.
  • There’s a ‘floppiness’ in the upper airway.
The diaphragm is typically driven by the autonomous system and is therefore normally spared non-REM inhibition, and as such, the suction pressure generated stays the same. The upper airway is thus narrowed during sleep, which increases resistance and makes upper airway airflow noisy and turbulent. As we know, we determine that a person is asleep by listening to their breathing: their breathing becomes distinctly louder once they fall asleep. So, it’s not surprising that the upper airway’s increased tendency to collapse while breathing during sleep leads to snoring, which is simply the tissues vibrating in the upper airway. For overweight people, this problem is aggravated when they sleep on their back because excess fat tissue can easily push down and close the airway. This can ultimately lead to sleep apnea.

Each sleep stage serves a unique role in brain and body restoration. There are many sleep deprivation studies that have demonstrated that depriving subjects of specific sleep stages of the sleep cycle has an adverse effect on body and brain functions
 
Right now I am basically avoiding all doctors if possible, but I guess eventually I probably should.

It's just sometimes hard for me to fall asleep. Sometimes it's easy. It doesn't seem to be something I control. Some nights I also wake up in the middle of the night here and there, and sometimes can't get back to sleep. I've been dealing with this my whole life
 
Lately I have not been sleeping well. It's a bit of a cycle. I am not a morning person and clock into work at 10am. Have been for over a decade. Leave an hour later than everybody else (they come in for 9). It takes me like 2 hours to wake up fully, and not really. I feel the most alert at 11pm.

Move several time zones to the west.
 
In the rare cases that my sleep isn't completely terrible, I have to take my medication every six hours so it gets broken.
 
It sounds like you're just letting your internal clock drift by x hours, where x is the maximum number of hours that's practical to let your internal clock drift.

I don't really know what this means.
 
Sleeping is supposed to revitalize you. But various non-life threatening health problems can diminish that. I rarely feel revitalized.
Maybe working out helps with that, given you are more aware of being awake when you actually aren't sunk in mental work.
 
I've been told to work out before bed to help me sleep, but when I do that I get pumped up like an Austrian on stereoids and I can't sleep at all.

If my internal clock is shifted, how do I shift it back? I'm a night owl, I feel the most alert in the evening. That's when I'm the most productive, at 10pmish. At 10am I'm like a zombie who doesn't know his own name
 
If my internal clock is shifted, how do I shift it back?

There are two methods:
1) Incrementally go to bed and wake up closer and closer to your intended schedule. Something like shifting your schedule by 15 minutes per day is doable but requires a lot of time and discipline
2) Sleep deprive yourself to the point that you fall asleep instantaneously at your intended bed time. This is much quicker than method 1 but can be quite a shock to the system and is rather unpleasant. I also tend to relapse into my old pattern if I use this method.
 
I've tried this before, and I just seem to be a night owl. If I stay up the whole night I'll go to bed at 10pm the next day or whatever, but then the next day it will be back to normal. I'm just always wide awake at 10pmish, nothing seems to change that. It seems to be my natural state of being, just who I am.

My body wouldn't adapt to the 15 minute thing. If I get used to waking up at 9:30, I wake up at around that time. Shifting stuff by 15 minutes would just mean I'd spend 15 more minutes lying in bed wide awake, and then I'd wake up at an earlier time and be more tired. I mean, I can try this, but my body seems to be really stubborn when it comes to this stuff. It doesn't want to change, it wants to be really awake in the evenings and tired in the mornings. Except when I travel, which for some reason I can wake up at 7am and it's fine.
 
I don't really know what this means.

I'm saying that "body wants to be awake from x - y" is a symptom, not a cause.

The cause is that your internal clock is 25 hours (or whatever), so roughly, if you start in sync with your time zone with sleeping from say, midnight to 8am, every day your sleep cycle drifts an hour later. But at some point, realities of society make it so you can't let the drift continue, so you stop the drift at 10 am or whatever.

But the effort of maintaining homeostasis with a 10am wakeup is, in reality, not particularly different from maintaining homeostasis with a 7am wakeup. (It only becomes particularly different if you're forcing homeostasis significantly outside of normal daylight hours.) The difference in 10am vs 7am wakeup (due to daylight) is basically the same as the difference between 7am summer and 7am winter anyway.
 
Talk to an expert. this is not a new problem and there are answers with a history of of success or at least answers that will help you understand the issues.
 
I'm saying that "body wants to be awake from x - y" is a symptom, not a cause.

The cause is that your internal clock is 25 hours (or whatever), so roughly, if you start in sync with your time zone with sleeping from say, midnight to 8am, every day your sleep cycle drifts an hour later. But at some point, realities of society make it so you can't let the drift continue, so you stop the drift at 10 am or whatever.

But the effort of maintaining homeostasis with a 10am wakeup is, in reality, not particularly different from maintaining homeostasis with a 7am wakeup. (It only becomes particularly different if you're forcing homeostasis significantly outside of normal daylight hours.) The difference in 10am vs 7am wakeup (due to daylight) is basically the same as the difference between 7am summer and 7am winter anyway.

That seems academically interesting, but I am not sure how it can help me. My body just seems to prefer the evening, and hates mornings. That could be all in my head of course, but that's been the case since I can remember.

It sounds though that I would have a better time sleeping on Mars, which has a 25 hour long day.
 
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