SM1 - Sid challenge
- Thread starter Smart
- Start date
Smart
King
Turn 1
Ok, because most of players decide to settle in place, I did it.
Fortress of Stupidity founded
Building rax. Masonry in 50 turns...
Move worker to cow.
Turn 2
Worker irrigates cow. That water S from starting position is fresh
Turn 5
FoS grows, rax in 10 turns
Worker roads cow
Turn 8
Move worker to N BG.
Turn 9
FoS grows, rax in 3 turns
Mining BG
Turn 10
Cultural expansion, hut gives the map.
There are green borders in south - Persia, but no contact. They start with BW, so they have only 6 free warriors, other 12 free units are spears. It's good, because AI don't like to attack with defensive units.
Turn 12
FoS rax>EW.
MM for 5 spt, we can build EW every 2 turns.
Turn 14
I have built my first SID Enkidu warrior
Turn 15
Worker builds road on BG.
Turn 16
Second EW comes to our world, lower lux to 20%. -1 gpt
Turn 18
Great Fortress of Stupidity grows to size 5. After MM it will produce Enkidu warrior every turn!
Masonry in 17 turns
Move worker to Spices.
Turn 19
Worker builds road to Spices.
Turn 20
Now we have to pay for unit support
Lower Science to 50%
Masonry in 23 turns
Ok, because most of players decide to settle in place, I did it.
Fortress of Stupidity founded
Building rax. Masonry in 50 turns...
Move worker to cow.
Turn 2
Worker irrigates cow. That water S from starting position is fresh
Turn 5
FoS grows, rax in 10 turns
Worker roads cow
Turn 8
Move worker to N BG.
Turn 9
FoS grows, rax in 3 turns
Mining BG
Turn 10
Cultural expansion, hut gives the map.
There are green borders in south - Persia, but no contact. They start with BW, so they have only 6 free warriors, other 12 free units are spears. It's good, because AI don't like to attack with defensive units.
Turn 12
FoS rax>EW.
MM for 5 spt, we can build EW every 2 turns.
Turn 14
I have built my first SID Enkidu warrior
Turn 15
Worker builds road on BG.
Turn 16
Second EW comes to our world, lower lux to 20%. -1 gpt
Turn 18
Great Fortress of Stupidity grows to size 5. After MM it will produce Enkidu warrior every turn!
Masonry in 17 turns
Move worker to Spices.
Turn 19
Worker builds road to Spices.
Turn 20
Now we have to pay for unit support
Lower Science to 50%
Masonry in 23 turns
Smart
King
Should we found second city? We build EW's too fast, and we must pay more and more gpt every turn. Moving two citizens from forest to BG we can get settler and growth in 4 turns.
Save attached
Save attached
Fortress of Stupidity! You've learned the ways of idiocy quickly Smart. 
A 2nd city is a must. Our river tiles don't seem highly productive. What about 1N1NE on the hill? Chops, BG and away from the Persians.
Should we send an enkidu on a Persian pillaging mission?
A 2nd city is a must. Our river tiles don't seem highly productive.
What about 1N1NE on the hill? Chops, BG and away from the Persians.Should we send an enkidu on a Persian pillaging mission?
Smart
King
Did you mean 2N1NE? City on that hill will grow slowly, because there is only one grassland tile in radius. I'd suggest to settle on 3NE hill - 2 BG in radius, and Spices forest.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
This might be a bit taunting the devil, but what about hill 3SW? We have a productive food town now, we might as well want another one to be our bait - and we have a hill nearby for that purpose.
SW-W looks good too, if a bit close, as it is rivered and it would allow for a 3rd ICS'd city 2S from it, hill too.
Keep in mind we might need several tries for a decent start on SID. We also will want early boats out to get other AI's into war mode.
SW-W looks good too, if a bit close, as it is rivered and it would allow for a 3rd ICS'd city 2S from it, hill too.
Keep in mind we might need several tries for a decent start on SID. We also will want early boats out to get other AI's into war mode.
Smart
King
We must be very carefull on this difficulty level. We can get contact immediatly, when moving to 3SW hill. Town on SWW hill will hurt FoS growth and production. 3NE hill is most safe way.
I have written some suggestions for next player:
TODO things:
1. MM in FoS - move two citizens from forest tiles to BG tiles, change production to settler - it will be completed after 4 turns, when city grows.
2. Found second city on 3NE hill, start working on rax.
3. After roading spices, move worker NE, and chop forest for barraks.
All is right?
Roster:
Smart - just played
Beorn - UP
nerovats - on deck
zerksees
Whomp
I have written some suggestions for next player:
TODO things:
1. MM in FoS - move two citizens from forest tiles to BG tiles, change production to settler - it will be completed after 4 turns, when city grows.
2. Found second city on 3NE hill, start working on rax.
3. After roading spices, move worker NE, and chop forest for barraks.
All is right?
Roster:
Smart - just played
Beorn - UP
nerovats - on deck
zerksees
Whomp
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Sounds good. Will probably play tonight, since this won't take hours.
zerksees
in remission
I say definite yes for second city. Either of those hills to the north look good. I agree 2N1NE for starters, we could then go to the hill on the coast for the third city.
And stay away from the green as long as possible. I would think in the next 10-20 turns they will come.
I am going to look at the save.
And stay away from the green as long as possible. I would think in the next 10-20 turns they will come.
I am going to look at the save.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Pre-Turn: Correct MM for settler in 4, Masonry cost increases with loss of gold.
T2.
MM BG's to the lake for gold, Masonry back to acceptable rate
T4.
Settler is in, next onwards an Enkidu @5fpt, 5spt.
T5.
Settler reaches hill, spices connected after the IBT, worker moved to spices #2 for barracks chop in Stronghold of Idiocy.
T6.
Since we've got many Enkidus, I assign one to defend spices.
EW >> Worker
IT: Knock knock, who's that ?
T7.
Do the trade, start on WC full.
IT: Both fortify
T8.
Worker >> EW
T9.
Another warrior/spearman pair shows.
T10.
Chop done, moved worker 1W (simply because it was rather close to the persians if it stayed put)
For the while to come, we'll have the opportunity of 4fpt @ 10spt, sizes 5 and 6, which shouldn't be overlooked: on top of that, just mine one grass, road the BG's, and we get 2-2-2 tiles all over for the GA: 5fpt 10spt.
FoS is MM'ed to catch the 2 missing shields (4+4+'2') on growth, no worries there. Keep the cash flow in.
They have a lot of defenders in our territory, so I'd advise leaving all roaded tiles covered. They want to pillage, and we can't afford it.
T2.
MM BG's to the lake for gold, Masonry back to acceptable rate
T4.
Settler is in, next onwards an Enkidu @5fpt, 5spt.
T5.
Settler reaches hill, spices connected after the IBT, worker moved to spices #2 for barracks chop in Stronghold of Idiocy.
T6.
Since we've got many Enkidus, I assign one to defend spices.
EW >> Worker
IT: Knock knock, who's that ?
T7.
Do the trade, start on WC full.
IT: Both fortify
T8.
Worker >> EW
T9.
Another warrior/spearman pair shows.
T10.
Chop done, moved worker 1W (simply because it was rather close to the persians if it stayed put)
For the while to come, we'll have the opportunity of 4fpt @ 10spt, sizes 5 and 6, which shouldn't be overlooked: on top of that, just mine one grass, road the BG's, and we get 2-2-2 tiles all over for the GA: 5fpt 10spt.
FoS is MM'ed to catch the 2 missing shields (4+4+'2') on growth, no worries there. Keep the cash flow in.
They have a lot of defenders in our territory, so I'd advise leaving all roaded tiles covered. They want to pillage, and we can't afford it.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Roster:
Smart -
Beorn - Met Xerxes
nerovats - Will meet his men
zerksees - Might have something left
Whomp
Xman wouldn't do anything else in the trades, even with us selling him a worker, so I took it. Talking about a worker, I might not have built it had I met Xman a turn earlier, but hey, life is life.
I ran my turns on 5fpt mostly, taking advantage of the window we had where it was possible not to max shields. I think right now covering our worked tiles is more important than walling the cities (EW are tough defenders, they say it in the civilopedia
) so it's EW rather than walls in FoS.
Smart -
Beorn - Met Xerxes
nerovats - Will meet his men
zerksees - Might have something left
Whomp
Xman wouldn't do anything else in the trades, even with us selling him a worker, so I took it. Talking about a worker, I might not have built it had I met Xman a turn earlier, but hey, life is life.
I ran my turns on 5fpt mostly, taking advantage of the window we had where it was possible not to max shields. I think right now covering our worked tiles is more important than walling the cities (EW are tough defenders, they say it in the civilopedia
) so it's EW rather than walls in FoS.
Smart
King
All is nice, except MM - why FoS waste 2 shields every 3 turns? You had to move one citizen from lake to BG, to produce 5spt and building EW's every 2 turns. Anytime FoS should produce 5 or 10 spt to minimize wastage.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
@Smart: on growth, you "gain" 2 shields. Try it. The game counts happiness first, food growth second, assigns the "new" citizen, and THEN counts the shields (and beakers IIRC, but I'm 100% positive for shields). That means we do get an extra 2 shields on growth. First EW in my set, on a "granary shift", was 5-5, then it's 4-4 "+2" for 10. Setting governer to "maximize shields" ensures you gain the most possible, which is 2 here.
OK, might not be a best case scenario thing, but it's what we've got. We have several hills we'll have to use to our advantage, and most importantly to their detriment. We can't allow them to sit on trees, hills or mountains when they come for a hit, but that's an everlasting problematic.
Facts are, we have a desert tile we can profit from. If we block the east shore with a town and 2 EW (2x2 when we can afford), they'll start sending units Westwards. This is where the desert comes into play: best tile to attack on, 0% bonus (normal flatland is 10 IIRC). We settler the S hill (not letting them walk on it, supposing we settled 1N) and stack cats/archers in there. Let the fools walk around onto the desert and go boom.
Other unveiled tiles are FP, except the N-most and, perhaps, one to the SW of Purple-Dot.
OK, might not be a best case scenario thing, but it's what we've got. We have several hills we'll have to use to our advantage, and most importantly to their detriment. We can't allow them to sit on trees, hills or mountains when they come for a hit, but that's an everlasting problematic.
Facts are, we have a desert tile we can profit from. If we block the east shore with a town and 2 EW (2x2 when we can afford), they'll start sending units Westwards. This is where the desert comes into play: best tile to attack on, 0% bonus (normal flatland is 10 IIRC). We settler the S hill (not letting them walk on it, supposing we settled 1N) and stack cats/archers in there. Let the fools walk around onto the desert and go boom.
Other unveiled tiles are FP, except the N-most and, perhaps, one to the SW of Purple-Dot.
zerksees
in remission
I think that turn was well played. I like your SW city idea - I came to the same conclusion after looking at the save, too bad I did not get back in time to suggest it.
Obviously Xerxes is already out of land to the south or he would not be trying to put cities up north? Any thought to trying to stop it? EW defend well but they are also 10-shield warriors and all we have to attack with right now.
Looks like I might have my hands full when it gets to me - but that is just Sid now isn't it?
Any ideas on how we are going to keep up in tech long term? I would think a GLib steal might be in order. After warrior code we need mathematics, alphabet and writing. Maybe we can do min research on lit and build the GLib ourselves. Any thoughts?
I think priority will be on keeping cities. Will cover improvements as much as possible. I have had a couple early meetings with a single Sid AI, both had chokepoints, one worked and one did not. This is going to be interesting.
Veteran immortals vs. fortified veteran EW in a walled town on a hill will still win 43.6% of the time. If we can take off one hit point they will still win 29.0%. Lets hope Xerxes has no iron.
this game plays like a giant chess game. Every move counts.
Edit due to cross post: See what you mean about the MM, and the like desert kill zone.
Obviously Xerxes is already out of land to the south or he would not be trying to put cities up north? Any thought to trying to stop it? EW defend well but they are also 10-shield warriors and all we have to attack with right now.
Looks like I might have my hands full when it gets to me - but that is just Sid now isn't it?
Any ideas on how we are going to keep up in tech long term? I would think a GLib steal might be in order. After warrior code we need mathematics, alphabet and writing. Maybe we can do min research on lit and build the GLib ourselves. Any thoughts?
I think priority will be on keeping cities. Will cover improvements as much as possible. I have had a couple early meetings with a single Sid AI, both had chokepoints, one worked and one did not. This is going to be interesting.
Veteran immortals vs. fortified veteran EW in a walled town on a hill will still win 43.6% of the time. If we can take off one hit point they will still win 29.0%. Lets hope Xerxes has no iron.
this game plays like a giant chess game. Every move counts.
Edit due to cross post: See what you mean about the MM, and the like desert kill zone.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
On techs (all assuming we hold the fort against Xman): a GLib capture is risky business. A GLib build is also risky business. Oh my. We need to at least try, though. With the terrain we have, I'd be more hopeful to get iron than horses, but neither are a given. With cheap libs, we definitely want to get literature anyways and research ourselves some of the way. We'll also need to pick well what we want, and I think that means
a) get cats, then either horses or swords - no hurry on horses if we do get swords
b) go for already researched, cheaper techs if we can
c) declare early on everyone so that their unit costs get out of hands
d) get muskets ASAP: knights iffff we have both iron and horses close-by.
D is considering we miss the GLib/they ignore the bottom tree. I've never played Sid, so I can't tell how fast we'll sink into that hole, though I think it should compare to Own7, but a bit worse. With different choices, it could be not so bad.
a) get cats, then either horses or swords - no hurry on horses if we do get swords
b) go for already researched, cheaper techs if we can
c) declare early on everyone so that their unit costs get out of hands
d) get muskets ASAP: knights iffff we have both iron and horses close-by.
D is considering we miss the GLib/they ignore the bottom tree. I've never played Sid, so I can't tell how fast we'll sink into that hole, though I think it should compare to Own7, but a bit worse. With different choices, it could be not so bad.
zerksees
in remission
Beorn-eL-Feared said:
I have only played a few Sid games but in my experience the unit counts will get out of hand fast. In my current epic attempt all the AI have been at 0 gold for a lonnng time. Egypt had some for a while but I did a little banking with them and took care of that.
I think keeping them out of war may be a better way to go because they have all these units they don't know what to do with. The AI way over irrigates so if we can get them to hold onto those low shield units they produce initially it will be better. Then again I'm playing archipelago.I know the Glib strategy is risky but if we can get alphabet and writing soon we can go min lit and hope it works out. If possible pre-build in non-capital city and we can convert to forbidden palace if it does not work out, assuming we can get that many cities. A 10 spt city can build the Glib in 60 turns right? Well when we get closer we can decide about that.
Also, don't techs cost more on Sid level? I hope the libraries help but I have had very little luck getting research above minimum after about halfway through ancient age.
You guys have any objections to giving gpt for gold or tech at the initial meeting before declaring war? Money for nothing and chicks for free...
Final thought: Looks like the north section is not going to be much bigger than what we can see. Maybe we are on a smallish landmass and we can hem Persia into the south end. At least any settlers that get through will be building distance corrupted cities.
I like the blocking strategy and forcing them onto the desert funnel.
I don't know how the wonders will cascade at Sid but it's really important in any AW game I've seen to get it.
I would be against gpt since it's not in the spirit of the AW rules.
I don't know how the wonders will cascade at Sid but it's really important in any AW game I've seen to get it.
I would be against gpt since it's not in the spirit of the AW rules.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Idem against gpt. I think we need to pre-build upon settling, when we get there, for TGL. Getting them into war-mode will help too because of their research speed towards lit, and since it's a tech they often research pretty late.
For us, the techs will cost more, but we'll have to deal with it. If you think running above min is somewhat of a waste I'll take your word for it though, I've never played an actual game of sid.
For us, the techs will cost more, but we'll have to deal with it. If you think running above min is somewhat of a waste I'll take your word for it though, I've never played an actual game of sid.
