So...is it worth trying to watch the Game of Thrones series?

[Zack]

You don't get to have it both ways.

So when writing a work of fantasy, you have two options:

1. Make it exactly like medieval Europe.

2. Make it like modern society, but with swords.

With absolutely no in between.

 

[Gucumatz]

What is this, shades of grey?

 

[Hygro]

So when writing a work of fantasy, you have two options:

1. Make it exactly like medieval Europe.

2. Make it like modern society, but with swords.

With absolutely no in between.

Zack: Where R U?
BvBPL: brb fighting dragon

 

[Cutlass]

Dorne is not modeled after medieval Europe.

I think it might have some modeling, very loosely, on Moorish Spain.

 

[metatron]

the cheap shock value of obscene brutality that is the shows sole selling point.

Maybe, to some people.
However another selling point is - in my view - that it is essentially a medieval soap opera (see above).
Then there is the other selling point of fundamental tragedy: The results of events are often worse than the aggregate of the characters' intentions. You know, manure and fans and all that.
GoT shares this latter selling point as well as the misunderstand with non-viewers with other currently popular shows, like, say, Breaking Bad.

 

[metatron]

[...]

 

[Antilogic]

Woah, Metatron is out, and in fighting form!

 

[Gucumatz]

What's with the Sansa hate Metatron?

 

[BvBPL]

And then there's also the small problem that we have to face up with the reality of some blurred lines (no pun intended) here.
If one actively kisses one's rapist in a passionate fashion halfway through the thing and eventually ceases all but the most nominal resistance that, unfortunetly - for you, means something.
Such an event should not be conflated with your typical garden variety consensual intercourse. It should also not be conflated with brutal forcible rape.
And such an unwarranted conflation should not be used to deride everyone who, quite correctly, refuses to agree with it as a "rape apologist".
Does the perpetrator in this instance violate todays moral standards in a way that would warrant criminal prosecution? Possibly, probably.
Should the event be viewed, debated, prosecuted as part of a supposedly monolithic thing called "rape"? Possibly not, probably not.

If a party says no to sex, but later ceases resistance to one's assailant then it is rape.

Consensual sex means ones has to give consent, not merely acquiesce to the will of another.

Not the "i-don't-like-your-opinion-therefore-you-are-quasi-kinda-like-a-racist" schtick again.

My intent wasn't to analogize sexual violence with racism directly. Instead, intended to show that piecemeal minor attempts to show powerful women on the show do not make up for the sexual violence on the show.

Let me put it another way:

It isn't a Bioware mortality system. You don't get to add up the portrayals of powerful women in an attempt to balance out the sexual violence.

--

How do you feel about the sexual violence in Atlas Shrugged?

 

[Hygro]

Here's a non PC thing: Daenerys is the blond white lady rescuing all the dark skinned people and is their white savior.

 

[metatron]

Here's a non PC thing: Daenerys is the blond white lady rescuing all the dark skinned people and is their white savior.

Indeed, that too!

If a party says no to sex, but later ceases resistance to one's assailant then it is rape.

Consensual sex means ones has to give consent, not merely acquiesce to the will of another.

Not contradicting what i said.

My intent wasn't to analogize sexual violence with racism directly.

Yet, you kinda did. "is like" - pretty straight forward operative term.

Edit: Yeah, yeah, the two statements are alike in that they are both fallacies. Sure.
We both know that you meant to make an implicit statement about what is percieved as the stereotypical maker of each of those statements, which doesn't exactly *rollingmyeyes* mean the you called both the same thing. Yadda, yadda yadda...
*yawn*

You don't get to add up the portrayals of powerful women in an attempt to balance out the sexual violence.

What is being argued is that it doesn't need "balancing", it's not a matter of "balance".
That's actually very much the point of what you said in the previous paragraph.

How do you feel about the sexual violence in Atlas Shrugged?

Due to limited exposure, i don't.

Woah, Metatron is out, and in fighting form!

In fighting form i would have found a way to close post #126 with citing Harper Lee as a fedora wearing MRA.

L'esprit d'escalier...

 

[azzaman333]

Here's a non PC thing: Daenerys is the blond white lady rescuing all the dark skinned people and is their white savior.

I like how her actions were a lot more morally questionable in the most recent episode instead of being the infallible figure she's been over the past season or so.

 

[Gucumatz]

Were you there when they crucified my lord?

 

[Hygro]

I like how her actions were a lot more morally questionable in the most recent episode instead of being the infallible figure she's been over the past season or so.

Yeah, though I wished the show had also shown how disgustingly brutal the slave uprising itself would be. We like rooting for the freedom of slaves, but it's already good on its own, it needn't be sugarcoated.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In the last few episodes there was this Prince Olberyn (sp?) character who is openly bisexual (and proud of it) and also a great warrior. That's definitely not something you'd see in medieval Europe.

Prince Oberyn is from Dorne, which has a very different culture from the rest of Westeros. The only part of Medieval Europe which Dorne even remotely resembles is Islamic Iberia. They of course are not actually Islamic though, but follow traditions brought over by a female conqueror. Their culture embraces gender equality (maybe not for warriors, but at least for rulers) and is generally quite tolerant of illicit sexual relations. They don't have quite the free love attitude of the Summer Islanders, but it is common for men and women to publicly acknowledge and honor their Paramours in addition to their legal spouses.

I may be wrong, but I don't recall Prince Oberyn actually being bisexual in the books. He was certainly promiscuous though, and he and Ellaria could be described as swingers. (His Paramour was certainly bisexual. If they try to remain even remotely faithful to the books, then Ellaria Sand will soon have a sex scene with Cercei Lannister.)

Btw, speaking of 'modern sensibilities' or PC etc, is there any Black actor in the series, or character in the books?

I recall some 'oriental' and middle-eastern ones, but in the scenes i have watched on yt there seems to be no african actor.

Not making this note as a critique or anything (if the work is supposed to be in fantasy northern medieval 'europe'/'england', it makes sense to not have all races around).

There are several black characters from the Summer Isles, an archipelago located far to the south of Westeros.

The only ones in both the books and show so far (Missandei, Grey Worm) were enslaved as children are are now serving Daenerys.

In the books there was an exiled prince who had served for years in the court of Robert Baratheon, trying to convince the king to fund a military expedition to help him reclaim his throne. Robert wanted to conquer the isles, but his advisers insisted that it would be too expensive to conquer and administer such remote islands and that they have nothing of value their except tropical fruit which is easier to acquire by trade. It might not take a lot of troops as the Summer Islanders are among the least militant people in the world, but the logistics were still deemed impractical.

In the books, Tyrion's favorite brothel is run by a Madam who was formerly a priestess in the Summer Isles. The most expensive prostitute there is her daughter. Unlike most Westerosi prostitutes, she considers her profession to be quite honorable. The Summer Isles are reveled to have a very Sex-positive culture, with a dominant religion that considers sex for pleasure to be a holy act.

I believe that the black pirate on the show was said to be from the Summer Isles, although I don't think that the book character on whom he is based was. Later on in the book, Sam and Maester Aemon should travel on a Summer Islander ship from Bravoos to Oldtown.

The black merchant prince in Qarth is based on a character described in the books as being especially pale. I forget how they tried to explain that.

There are also probably darker black people on the continent of Sothyros (which is based mostly on Africa, with perhaps some Australian and South American influences), but it has only been mentioned a few times in passing. The people of Westeros don't know much about Sothyros, and what they think they know consists of tales as outlandish as those which Medieval Europeans though about sub-Saharan Africa. I don't recall any characters coming from there.



The racial traits of the peoples of Essos seem rather inconsistent. Some seem Casucasian, Italic, Nordic, Arab, Asian, Mongol, etc. For no good reason, those from the southernmost cities on the continent tend to have much fairer skin and hair than those from the interior of the continent. The Ibbenese, the northernmost inhabitants of Essos (who are native to an Island chain in the Shivering Sea, at about the same Latitude as Winterfell) are also pale, but they are more noted for having lots of very dark coarse body hair.


All of the humans in Westeros claim descent from those who came from Essos. The First Men crossed on a land bridge that formerly connected Dorne to western Essos, before sea levels rose due to some magical cataclysm. They could be considered vaguely Native-American, but also a bit heathen northern European. They crossed in the south of the continent, but are now most associated with the North. They were a early Bronze Age people who eventually adopted the religion of the Children of the Forest, the "Old Gods." Thousands of years later the Andals invaded in ships which first landed in the Vale of Arryn. These were Nordic types, typically blue eyed blonds, with iron and steel weapons and armor. They introduced the Faith of the Seven, the "New Gods" (which are technically supposed to be a single God in seven persons, compared with the one God in 3 persons of the Christina Trinity) of the predominant organized religion. Most Westerosi culture is Andal and most Westerosi are of predominantly Andal heritage, although there has been considerable interbreeding. Andal influence is weakest in The North and in Dorne. The culture of the First Men is stronger in The North, while Dorne is dominated by the descendants of the Rhoyar invasion led by Queen Nymeria about a thousand years ago. (The Rhoynar were an olive skinned people from the riverlands just sound of the hills where the Andals originated. They claim to have invented iron working and taught the Andals.) Only a tiny minority of the Westerosi can claim descent from the Valyrians, as that empire had fallen before the Targaryens and a few of their vassals invaded a mere 300 or so years ago. They then adopted Westerosi Andal based customs.

 

[Yeekim]

I don't even follow what the hell this argument is about any more...

 

[Grisu]

What's with the Sansa hate Metatron?

Because she's just plain annoying and whiny? I don't agree with Meta's assessment of the rest of the Starks, though...Arya is one of the coolest characters in the whole story (granted, she's much cooler in the books), and both Jon and Bran have some strong points. Granted, Lady Stark is a major factor of annoyance, and I never really warmed up on Robb. And Sean Bean, as usual, died too soon to give make up my mind over him )

 

[Mise]

S'pose I should respond to this now.

I'm not sure that intention is necessary. You can have a misogynistic portrayal without intending to be misogynistic.

Of course. I'm not talking about whether it was intended to be misogynistic. There are numerous characters that the author clearly intended to be misogynistic. The author clearly intends to describe things and acts that are misogynistic. There are lots of misogynistic things going on in the show, and the author clearly intended to write them.

I'm talking about whether misogyny is intended to be part of the appeal of the thing. Whether GRRM is using misogynistic portrayals to titillate his audience, or to glorify misogyny. Whether GRRM is saying through his art, "hey, look, misogyny is pretty awesome!", rather than, "hey, look, misogyny is $%^*ing terrible!" There is a clear difference between the two.

I think you understand that though, judging by what you wrote next, so I suppose I shouldn't labour the point!

There are at least two scenes in the show that were rough but consensual sex in the books but were rape on the TV show and at least one instance of non-consensual sexual violence that was a new scene for the TV show and never appeared in the books. The additions made by the TV show from things that were not in the book make it very questionable if there's a valid artistic purpose to making these scenes rape scenes. It is necessary to ask why the TV show changed this to make these scenes more violent.

The case can be made that GoT does glorify sexual violence to some extent. For example, in season one, Khal Drogo raped Daenerys (unlike the book where the sex was consensual, albeit complicated by Daenerys's age). As a result of the non-consensual sexual encounters Drogo has w/ Daenerys, and her resulting learning to use sex as a tool to manipulate Drogo, Daenerys develops and matures as a character. She comes into her own because of the rape.

The rape made her a woman. It made her a strong character.

Suggesting that rape does this, that is makes the victims of rape stronger for going through the rape, is a glorification of rape.

That's absolutely not my interpretation at all. Daenerys overcame her rape by being a strong character. The rape didn't cause her to become strong, she was already strong, and she overcame it by being strong, and then going from strength to strength. This is a common theme in storytelling, especially in America -- extreme adversity bringing out strengths people didn't realise they had. It's pretty misogynistic that Daenerys's adversity was rape, and she overcame it (in a material rather than emotional sense) by banging, whereas Robb's for example was war, but (a) there are many more women in the show for whom rape wasn't an adversity they had to face (e.g. Arya), and (b) a lot of women really are raped by men they were forced to marry.

The rape didn't make her a strong character -- she already was a strong character, that's the point of the plot line. I honestly don't know how you can watch the first season and believe that the rape is making her strong. That's so $^&*ed up I can't even

Like, if the most common interpretation of her character development, really is what you're describing, then really it says more about the misogyny of our culture that we could possibly view rape as something that makes people strong. WTH?!?!

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Because she's just plain annoying and whiny?

That and I think the actress' visuals are also messed up. Sansa was supposed to really young (and stunningly beautiful), but they get the tallest woman they can find? I also just don't like her face.

 

[Grisu]

That's absolutely not my interpretation at all. Daenerys overcame her rape by being a strong character. The rape didn't cause her to become strong, she was already strong, and she overcame it by being strong, and then going from strength to strength.

Exactly. There are people who go through terrible things and somehow come out strong and unbroken. That's not because of these terrible things but despite them.

That and I think the actress' visuals are also messed up. Sansa was supposed to really young (and stunningly beautiful), but they get the tallest woman they can find? I also just don't like her face.

IIRC, she's supposed to be 14...yeah, right. FWIW, I don't find Cersei to be the most beautiful woman of Westeros either...