So, what's wrong with Libertarianism?

In communism they're elected, or at least communally decided. That's the flaw with capitalism - political entities are democratically elected while economic entities (and wealthy people) arise as a course of "might makes right" in a slightly more complicated system.

Regardless, I gather from your statement that you are defining the state as not only the political component, but the entire entity, which includes the economic component.
"Economic" and "political" aren't concretely distinct spheres of activity. The economic is always, necessarily, political, and the political is always, necessarily, economic. The state is an economic entity and private companies are political entities, each as much as the other.

My point is that human social development lead to the evolution of states. I would venture to guess that your assertion is that each social system evolution came as a result of predators attempting to maximize predation under an adapting order, and perhaps in spite of workers (and their demands for equity) instead of for them. Perhaps I am too much of an optimist and/or you too much of a pessimist, but I perceive a great attribution of such change to be separate from the people involved, with no intent (i.e. some mystical concept of social or cultural evolution, rather than a group of people).
I don't even know what you're saying, here. Just sounds like you're regurgitating the old, discredited Orthodox Marxist logic of "historical progress", but stripped of even the halfway-radical class politics it implied. A fancy way of saying "don't rock the boat".

I also believe that the advent of democracy has changed a multitude of factors as well. Currently, the wealthy will have a great level of influence, affecting many policies across the board. However, to an unprecedented extent, the people now have a not-insignificant level of influence as well. Capitalism can indeed be "reformed away" to be less predatory on the workers. At least until the people collect sufficient education, awareness, and power to truly change things.
How?

We would have to look at capitalism's shortfalls to address that. The way I see it, there are only two outcomes that fundamentally flaw capitalism.

One is that the residual fruits of workers' labours are remitted to the capitalists. I say residual since workers do get some fruits of their labour (wages), but this point is meant to also encapsulate the illegitimacy of wealth. That is, that capitalists can earn economic benefits by merely owning wealth, rather than performing actions deserving of such benefits. An argument made for the idea that they had performed actions in the past leading to their wealth is flawed from both an inheritance perspective (where does this wealth go when they die?) and from the circular argument that presupposes that earnings made under such a system are indeed legitimate.

The second is that the capitalists have total economic control. Even if all workers were to be paid handsome wages, it would still be the wealth-owners who would make all the decisions and have all the control over how such wealth would be handled and distributed. Workers would still have to choose their "master" to provide wages necessary for living, while the masters control all aspects (to the extent they wish).

A democratically-elected government has a higher degree of influence from the workers themselves, and can align the system more to the workers' goals. The first flaw can be addressed through taxation schemes that "redistribute" the wealth to some minor degree. The second flaw can be addressed by providing the people more power, since they now indirectly control this political government that can influence the system and aspects thereof.

Just because political reform has been slow or ineffective in the past century doesn't mean that it will continue to be just as slow. I would expect an exponential increase in effectiveness over time as technological advances increase education and social communication and commentary.
The shortfall of capitalism is that it is capitalism. A system dominated by the accumulation of dead labour, a system in which living beings strive to fill the needs of unliving capital. That can't be voted away, that can't be rectified by redistributing the proceeds. What you propose is inviting workers to participate in the management of their own exploitation, to serve as the officers of the expropriation of their own labour, to actively participate in the perpetuation of the dictatorship of capital- and you call that progress?

The call for a decent wage is an apology for the essential indecency of the wage-system itself.

I don't think wages are a defining element of capitalism. Private property rights are. Here's why: It's already in the name, being the 'capital' of "capitalism". Capitalism is about free ownership of capital, free in the sense of no legal impairments to owning capital due to matters of birth, like would be more or less the case in Medieval Europe for example. It's - as you mentioned - also about getting profit, or at the very least, avoiding losses.
Capital is a social relation. All property-forms are social relations. The legal abstraction f property, property as a static and persistent thing, is a collective fiction we entertain to describe and regulate those social relations. The reality of property consists in real social practice, in what people actually do. In capitalism, that means wage-labour, the need of both capital and labour to engage in wage-relations in order to reproduce themselves. That is neither a comprehensive nor exhaustive description of capitalism, but nobody ever said it had to be: it is enough that it tells why "capitalism" is different than "not-capitalism".

No wage-system, no capitalism, just a lot of shopkeepers and small farmers, selling a greater or lesser part of their produce, and that pre-dates even the earliest estimations of the genesis of capitalism by a few centuries at least.

It's easy and understandable to think that the ownership of capital to extract profits is somehow parasitic in the same way anarcho-capitalists would consider the state it to be. That - I know - is your position. However, eliminating capitalism would simply impair the ability of capital to be mobilized, made and used to least of societal loss possible, as is the experience of states that do not allow for Capitalism to fully express itself (i.e. the Soviet Union, 18th century France and most Third world countries). Entrepreneurs can only raise capital by having "skin in the game" (taking significant personal risks in doing so). Now, my position on Capitalism of course comes quite close to Libertarianism, if Libertarians would not support that outright. But the primary problems of capitalism consist primarily in the form of renter Capitalism most infamously represented by the sorry state of the financial sector, which is able to socialise losses but capitalise on profits.
Capital is not a trans-historical category. Humans have not always organised themselves on such a basis; what makes you think we must continue to do so?
 
"Economic" and "political" aren't concretely distinct spheres of activity. The economic is always, necessarily, political, and the political is always, necessarily, economic. The state is an economic entity and private companies are political entities, each as much as the other.

Unlike economics, politics also may encompass religion and cultural and ethnic identification, and economics is only synonymous to politics insofar politics is purely economical, which isn't the case. Al-Qaida, Nazi-Germany, the USSR nor even the British Empire for that matter rampaged the earth for monetary gain, yet that is exactly what is put forward if Marxist theory is taken to its logical conclusions.

In fact, because politics encompass religious and ethnic dimensions, polities very often take decisions that are prejudicial to purely economic interests. People often sincerely take strong religious views, notions of ethnic supremacy and pride and so on, all of which can be actively contrary to economic interests, which seem to disprove the Marxist notion that political interests can somehow be deduced to economic ones. Which is why the separation of economics and politics is fairly useful.

No wage-system, no capitalism, just a lot of shopkeepers and small farmers, selling a greater or lesser part of their produce, and that pre-dates even the earliest estimations of the genesis of capitalism by a few centuries at least.

How would you estimate the beginning of "capitalism"?
 
Unlike economics, politics also may encompass religion and cultural and ethnic identification, and economics is only synonymous to politics insofar politics is purely economical, which isn't the case. Al-Qaida, Nazi-Germany, the USSR nor even the British Empire for that matter rampaged the earth for monetary gain, yet that is exactly what is put forward if Marxist theory is taken to its logical conclusions.

In fact, because politics encompass religious and ethnic dimensions, polities very often take decisions that are prejudicial to purely economic interests. People often sincerely take strong religious views, notions of ethnic supremacy and pride and so on, all of which can be actively contrary to economic interests, which seem to disprove the Marxist notion that political interests can somehow be deduced to economic ones. Which is why the separation of economics and politics is fairly useful.



How would you estimate the beginning of "capitalism"?
That is one hell of a claim.
 
Well I think it can we worded much better as the separation of power and economics.

There will always be men that seek out power. This is the reason communism and socialism have failed everywhere they have appeared, yes?
 
Well I think it can we worded much better as the separation of power and economics.

There will always be men that seek out power. This is the reason communism and socialism have failed everywhere they have appeared, yes?

Do you honestly expect me to assent to that spurious claim?
 
So, I'm jumping right into the question. I don't have much to say about the argument above.

The problem with Libertarianism, specifically, is the cost of Justice. Libertarianism requires enforcements of contracts and the ability to sue if there's damage to one's property. Both of these things cost waaaaaay too much money in the modern era, and this prices out 90% of people from being able use the courts in any reasonable way.

That's the problem. I betcha that, implicitly, I might as (or more) Libertarian than you are. But we need to bring down the price of accessing justice before it can happen.

How do you assert states are more efficient at procuring justice than private actors?
 
But you're not.

How do you assert states are more efficient at procuring justice than private actors?

States make the law. But states are represented by private actors. I'm not sure what your point is here.

So, I'm jumping right into the question. I don't have much to say about the argument above.

The problem with Libertarianism, specifically, is the cost of Justice. Libertarianism requires enforcements of contracts and the ability to sue if there's damage to one's property.

The problem is rather with justice itself. Enforcing contracts is a legal matter. So unless you wish to replace the state by companies (that is, non-state owned enterprises), I don't quite see the point of it. Should the state then be allowed to wither away? And is that even a plausible scenario for the biggest economy on the planet?
 
That is one hell of a claim.

It certainly is, if flies are elephants.

When I say "seperation of politics and economics", I do not say that they are disconnected, which clearly isn't the case, but that politics just can't be understood in terms of pure economics and vice versa. Politics is rife of things that do not make any economic sense at all.

You're right, people were really stupid to use the term "the political economy" universally for two centuries.

Thank you so much for proving my point. If you didn't, then you may have a fetish for pleonasms.
 
Unlike economics, politics also may encompass religion and cultural and ethnic identification, and economics is only synonymous to politics insofar politics is purely economical, which isn't the case. Al-Qaida, Nazi-Germany, the USSR nor even the British Empire for that matter rampaged the earth for monetary gain, yet that is exactly what is put forward if Marxist theory is taken to its logical conclusions.

In fact, because politics encompass religious and ethnic dimensions, polities very often take decisions that are prejudicial to purely economic interests. People often sincerely take strong religious views, notions of ethnic supremacy and pride and so on, all of which can be actively contrary to economic interests, which seem to disprove the Marxist notion that political interests can somehow be deduced to economic ones. Which is why the separation of economics and politics is fairly useful.
I don't disagree. But what you're talking about here are analytical categories. You're saying that it is useful for us to think of certain things in certain ways in certain contexts. What I'm saying is that the concrete level, these distinctions do not exist: there is simply humans, engaged in activity which is at the same time political, economic, cultural, sexual, whatever you want. This isn't about reducing anything to anything else, but on the contrary, about the irreducibility of concrete human experience in to the terms of any one analytical category.

How would you estimate the beginning of "capitalism"?
Well, as I've said, I tend to see the wage-relation as paramount, so I'd identify the genesis of capitalism with the emergence of a generalised market in labour. From that position, the crux is probably the agrarian reforms in Northern Europe between c.1500 and c.1700, which is the first time in European history were you see a large part of the population were uprooted from the land and, although still remaining within agricultural production, began to work the land as sharecroppers, hired-hands, etc. rather than as either tenant farmers or as serfs.

But, there are other views, and a lot of people lay more stress on the spread of mercantile activity, which tends to shift the stress from Northern Europe to the Mediterranean at least until 1600 or so.

Is there a difference between wages and a wage-system?
I'd think of the wage system as the generalisation of wage-labour, so the exchange of wages within the context of a generalised labour-market. The wage is a particular relationship, but the wage-system is the structural need which both labour and capital have for entering into that sort of relation to begin with.


ALSO!, re: this thread

sacrifice1.jpg


:mischief:
 
I'd think of the wage system as the generalisation of wage-labour, so the exchange of wages within the context of a generalised labour-market. The wage is a particular relationship, but the wage-system is the structural need which both labour and capital have for entering into that sort of relation to begin with.

So soldier wages, like those Gaius Marius instituted, do not constitute a wage-system but merely a convenient way of obtaining soldiery by providing something useful to them which the state had in plentiful supply? It's not a system, because there's no competition between different wage-payers in the same market? What if the Seleukids and Averni had started offering soldiers a higher pay, and many Romans started leaving Rome to accept Greek or Gallic wages. Would it be a market then? Or is this just a bad example overall, because soldiery is a product immediately consumed, and thus produces no net value for society, as Quesnay thought?
 
How do you assert states are more efficient at procuring justice than private actors?

I don't, not when it's phrased so vaguely. But, regulations allow an enforced fairness that cannot be achieved through tort. Instead of suing you, and going through all the expense of showing damage, we can just (as a society) show the damage from an action in aggregate and then force the powerful to stop the damaging action.
 
How do you assert states are more efficient at procuring justice than private actors?


Regulations are vastly more economically efficient than lawsuits in many situations. From an economic standpoint lawsuits are pretty close to the least efficient system possible.
 
I don't, not when it's phrased so vaguely. But, regulations allow an enforced fairness that cannot be achieved through tort. Instead of suing you, and going through all the expense of showing damage, we can just (as a society) show the damage from an action in aggregate and then force the powerful to stop the damaging action.

Can individual actors not collaborate without the need of a state?
 
Can individual actors not collaborate without the need of a state?


Sure. But a lawsuit is, by definition, the opposite of collaboration. Lawsuits only happen when one side is making a charge, and the other side is refuting it. If that were not true, they would have settled without the lawsuit.

So you know, once it has gone to a lawsuit, that an efficient outcome cannot happen.

It's really a very basic part of economics. It's called "transactions costs". Essentially, every transaction between 2 or more parties has some cost of the transaction, independent of what the transaction is about. Often times that transactions cost is small, but often times it is large as well. A lawsuit is the highers possible transactions cost. And that cost is entirely a deadweight loss to the economy.

There's this thing that a lot of people like to bring up called the "Coase Theorum". Coase, an economist, theorized that in the absence of transactions costs, the market could come to efficient outcomes without government. But then he spent the rest of his career saying that there is never actually an absence of transactions costs. Which is to say that in theory it isn't really possible for the market to correctly assign property rights.

To give an example, if a company is polluting, and people are getting sick as a result, there is no possible remedy through a lawsuit. The only possible remedy is through regulation. Why? Because of asymmetric power, wealth, and information, the ability of the harmed party to bring a lawsuit against a polluter is very weak. Where the ability of the company to fight it is extremely strong. Class action suits partially equalized this power. But that, as an economic matter, is a terrible way to go. The company will never be charged enough money to stop companies from polluting and killing people, and the victims will never receive enough money to compensate their losses. The only winners are the lawyers.

And worse case scenario for the company, it's still cheaper than not having polluted in the first place.

And so pollution is one area where the only economically efficient policy is government regulation.
 
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