Social Evolution

Pumping gas takes about 1 minute & requires zero skill.

Have you ever done a job that requires zero skill all day (plus breathing in exhaust & in an ugly environment)? It's not empowering or enriching, it just makes you miserable. Better to just give people free money than give them a token nonsense job.
As a matter of fact, yes I have, specifically working as a gas station attendant. Having that job didn't make me miserable, it gave me enough money to buy my own car for the first time in my life... a second car in fact (after I had to crash the first one :blush:). I was able to have a job that was third shift, so I could attend classes during the day, and I was able to have some money in my pocket so I could go out and get some entertainment on my days off. I also learned a lot about the operations of gas stations, convenience stores, fuel transportation/delivery, the lottery, the cigarette company marketing strategies, cigarette addiction, cctv surveillance, security, cash/money storage/safety... not to mention so much about human psychology. I learned a lot from working that job, lessons I use even to this day, so the job was enriching and empowering. Having money in your pocket is quite empowering, even when its a relatively small amount.

Moreover, I've done plenty of "low skill" jobs in my life and in retrospect they were enriching because they provided me with perspective, of what it is like to do those particular jobs. That perspective has played a role, and continues to play a role, my whole life in how I interact with people performing similar jobs and my perception/appreciation for them. It also provided me with an opportunity to work in a low mental stress jobs at times in my life where I wasn't really in a place mentally, emotionally or in overall maturity where I would have been able to hold down a higher-stress job where you couldn't be stoned, hungover etc., on the job. It also gave me a chance to learn how a bunch of different industries work from the bottom up, as well as gave me a chance to decide whether I wanted to do jobs like that my whole life or try to get the "qualifications" to do something different. So working "low skill" jobs ended up being very empowering and enriching for me, especially in retrospect.

Having a job doesn't have to be, and often isn't about some grand exercise in personal development, its just a way of trading your time for money, so that you can use the money to get the things you need and/or want. There is empowerment in that because you know that you have earned/paid for the money by trading your time/efforts. Lots of people, myself included, would not feel the same way about just being given "free" money. Handouts can sometimes make people feel degraded and or condescended, as if they have no value to society and/or that they are just a parasite or burden. Having a task to do, no matter how small, mundane, or insignificant can sometimes help people to feel useful and worthy as a person, because they can feel that they are supporting themselves rather than being wholly supported by others. That feeling can really improve a person's self-esteem.
 
Btw there are also people (disabled, elderly etc) who cannot pump their own gas and New Jersey (also Oregon, fyi) system of having attendants pump all the gas is much better for those folks, since in pump-your-own-gas states it is typically quite a hassle to get an attendant out to pump your gas for you.

Again tho it is fascinating to see the level of contempt some posters have for their fellow human beings.

If you aren't a secret policeman or a torturer then your work is valid and there is dignity and honor in it, and the problem with it is probably that you are not paid what you're worth or treated with the dignity and respect you deserve.
 
Having to wait for someone to pump my gas in Oregon sucks. Having that “service” gives me negative utility.

I would rather we pay people to work out and do art, pay people to take better care of kids, pay people to make our infrastructure more beautiful, there’s a million things. If we’re going to have a jobs guarantee let’s make the jobs either actually benefit society and give people a step in self actualizing.
 
Bold of you to assume I own any dirt to do that in
Likewise. I rent the commercial stuff.

I don't garden the yard, I'm not a communist.

Argh. Seriously though. It takes time and energy I don't usually have. And you can't drop the ball on live product. Should do it, probably won't do it.

Drove through Naperville the other week and needed explained to me what the community garden plots were. I'm guessing that is more a suburban thing? We did a few "raised plots" once or whatever it is when you build a wooden box to put potting soil in on the porch. Mostly good for herbs, but not the exciting kind.
 
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Again tho it is fascinating to see the level of contempt some posters have for their fellow human beings.
How exactly do you jump from "judging that a job is pointless and doesn't provide an actual service" to "having contempt for a fellow human being" ?
 
I don't see any dignity in a useless job. Better to pay someone a wage for doing community service

I was going to say, 'define useless' but I see that you already have. I don't agree.

It's useless. You can do it yourself.

As Lexicus pointed out, not everyone can. I don't drive, but if I did, I'd have a hell of a time trying to do that, especially in winter.

You know what'd be a good job, have a park attendant in every park in the country. Can chat w frazzled parents bringing their 2yos to play, can listen to a lonely old person sitting on the bench. Don't need to have any childcare or mental health training just be decent company and a good listener.

Yeah... but in a park? Park employees don't just stand around in a uniform explaining what birds you're looking at.

There's a computer game series called Vacation Adventures: Park Ranger that I've been playing for many years (to the point that I've started a NaNoWriMo project to novelize them as the recurring characters and the additions to Pine Creek Hills park do add up to story potential for players who pay attention to that sort of thing; #15 should be out later this year). Part of the games is showing just how many people it takes to run one park and the many jobs they do. Nobody has time to stop and listen to a lonely old person sitting on a bench. They're busy running programs, searching for lost people, taking care of sick or injured people, catching poachers, fighting fires, shooing bears out of cabins where the guest was stupid enough to leave food out and the window open when they left, and so on. This game series prompted me to do some research about how national parks work and how many and varied people it takes to operate them. Of course there are differences between Canadian and American park systems, but they're both complex operations.

Pumping gas takes about 1 minute & requires zero skill.

Have you ever done a job that requires zero skill all day (plus breathing in exhaust & in an ugly environment)? It's not empowering or enriching, it just makes you miserable. Better to just give people free money than give them a token nonsense job.

Again, with a bit of creativity we could pay people to do something useful like hang out w old ladies or at risk kids that actually helps them feel useful & helps society rather than stick a nozzle in a car all day. Only more useless job I can think of off the top of my head is a bathroom attendant that you'd see in some fancy hotel to hand you a towel to dry your hands.

As an "old lady" (I turned 60 three weeks ago, which puts me in one of the lower tiers for senior citizen status here), I'd prefer someone to visit me because they wanted to, not because they were paid to.

During the pandemic, someone at the seniors' centre asked if I'd like to be part of the program they have where they do phone visits. Someone would phone me on a schedule and we'd have a conversation.

What kind of conversation could I have with someone who doesn't share common interests? There really aren't that many people there who are into SF/F, gaming, astronomy, history that happened pre-20th century, Shakespeare, and conversations about cats and the weather peter out fairly quickly. Politics would be a disaster since I have definite views that aren't in line with most people here (an NDP voter in a conservative province), not that politics would be an approved topic anyway.

So I said thank you, but I would not like to be part of such a program. It's not that I can't have a conversation about other things - it's that I find a lot of other things uninteresting after a few minutes.

Handouts can sometimes make people feel degraded and or condescended, as if they have no value to society and/or that they are just a parasite or burden. Having a task to do, no matter how small, mundane, or insignificant can sometimes help people to feel useful and worthy as a person, because they can feel that they are supporting themselves rather than being wholly supported by others. That feeling can really improve a person's self-esteem.

Yep, no-value, parasite, burden... that's how some people here (RL-here) feel about people like me.

Well, I wasn't always disabled. I used to have 3 home businesses, worked for Elections Canada, and did a lot of volunteer work. I didn't suddenly stop having "value" when my medical situation crashed around me, bringing down the rest of my life with it. The way I see it, I am part of the reason that other people have jobs in nursing, home care, and other disability-related professions.

Volunteer work isn't something I do anymore, but I do share my experiences online. There are people who have questions and concerns about elections - I know how they're supposed to work and can explain the voting process and what a voter's rights are.

Btw there are also people (disabled, elderly etc) who cannot pump their own gas and New Jersey (also Oregon, fyi) system of having attendants pump all the gas is much better for those folks, since in pump-your-own-gas states it is typically quite a hassle to get an attendant out to pump your gas for you.

Again tho it is fascinating to see the level of contempt some posters have for their fellow human beings.

If you aren't a secret policeman or a torturer then your work is valid and there is dignity and honor in it, and the problem with it is probably that you are not paid what you're worth or treated with the dignity and respect you deserve.

:thumbsup:

Having to wait for someone to pump my gas in Oregon sucks. Having that “service” gives me negative utility.

I would rather we pay people to work out and do art, pay people to take better care of kids, pay people to make our infrastructure more beautiful, there’s a million things. If we’re going to have a jobs guarantee let’s make the jobs either actually benefit society and give people a step in self actualizing.

Art is seen as being frivolous and unnecessary these days. When I asked someone if he liked to watch TV or movies, read books, or liked to look at pictures, or listen to music, he couldn't see the connection between that and funding art classes and programs in elementary schools.

Granted, I hated art classes in school because I wasn't particularly artistic as a child, other than in music. It wasn't until I got into doing musical theatre that my interest and abilities in art-related things took off.

There are kids who absolutely blossom when art is one of the ways they can express themselves. For some, it may be the only way that really works for them.
 
As a matter of fact, yes I have, specifically working as a gas station attendant. Having that job didn't make me miserable, it gave me enough money to buy my own car for the first time in my life... a second car in fact (after I had to crash the first one :blush:). I was able to have a job that was third shift, so I could attend classes during the day, and I was able to have some money in my pocket so I could go out and get some entertainment on my days off. I also learned a lot about the operations of gas stations, convenience stores, fuel transportation/delivery, the lottery, the cigarette company marketing strategies, cigarette addiction, cctv surveillance, security, cash/money storage/safety... not to mention so much about human psychology. I learned a lot from working that job, lessons I use even to this day, so the job was enriching and empowering. Having money in your pocket is quite empowering, even when its a relatively small amount.

Moreover, I've done plenty of "low skill" jobs in my life and in retrospect they were enriching because they provided me with perspective, of what it is like to do those particular jobs. That perspective has played a role, and continues to play a role, my whole life in how I interact with people performing similar jobs and my perception/appreciation for them. It also provided me with an opportunity to work in a low mental stress jobs at times in my life where I wasn't really in a place mentally, emotionally or in overall maturity where I would have been able to hold down a higher-stress job where you couldn't be stoned, hungover etc., on the job. It also gave me a chance to learn how a bunch of different industries work from the bottom up, as well as gave me a chance to decide whether I wanted to do jobs like that my whole life or try to get the "qualifications" to do something different. So working "low skill" jobs ended up being very empowering and enriching for me, especially in retrospect.

Having a job doesn't have to be, and often isn't about some grand exercise in personal development, its just a way of trading your time for money, so that you can use the money to get the things you need and/or want. There is empowerment in that because you know that you have earned/paid for the money by trading your time/efforts. Lots of people, myself included, would not feel the same way about just being given "free" money. Handouts can sometimes make people feel degraded and or condescended, as if they have no value to society and/or that they are just a parasite or burden. Having a task to do, no matter how small, mundane, or insignificant can sometimes help people to feel useful and worthy as a person, because they can feel that they are supporting themselves rather than being wholly supported by others. That feeling can really improve a person's self-esteem.
I feel you, I kinda enjoyed my dishwashing job @ age 18 but when I was dishwashing @ 40 it was depressing af.

It's cool it made feel you useful but at the end of the day it's still a stupid law for NJ to not let people pump their own gas & create more cost & inefficiency for gas station owners. If you haven't been doing busywork & just hung out w the gas station owner apprentice-style you could've learned even much more in way less time.

When I did pizza delivery it was cool for a few weeks & I learned how the pizza business runs but w a crummy job the education ends and the tedium begins after a few weeks,

Even if your job was as romantic as you remember it surely we can do even better for the future, right? Evolution?
 
Btw there are also people (disabled, elderly etc) who cannot pump their own gas and New Jersey (also Oregon, fyi) system of having attendants pump all the gas is much better for those folks, since in pump-your-own-gas states it is typically quite a hassle to get an attendant out to pump your gas for you.
But for 99.9% of people they don't need or want the help, it's just annoying & then you feel pressured to tip the poor bastard.

A law for having someone on hand to help the disabled, all good. Not allowing adults to pump their own gas to boost the economy is just dumb.
Again tho it is fascinating to see the level of contempt some posters have for their fellow human beings.
You're one of the most contemptuous people I've ever seen on the internet in the almost 30 years I've been on here
 
How exactly do you jump from "judging that a job is pointless and doesn't provide an actual service" to "having contempt for a fellow human being" ?
He thinks anyone who doesn't share his worldview is contemptous & is projecting.

Homeboy talks about how he wants people he disagrees with to die all the time. You can't try to understand people like that. Fortunately he also has a mentality that ensures he will never be able to hold any significant power over others (lying flat & all that which I'm fine with in some cases).
 
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Communalism might work on a small scale (ideally based on shared ideals rather than race or religion). Communism

Communalism is essentially the same thing as Communism, except Karl Marx preferred to call it "Primitive Communism" with the only distinction being that "actual Communism" would utilize an industrial mode of production and not a pre-industrial/agrarian/hunter-gathering one.

Now I don't know if this is true but to me the only reason I believe he probably thought it could work was because to him resource scarcity was a common issue of pre-industrialized society, so the collapse of the original "Primitive Communism" was because these early societies would quickly overpopulate an exceed their Malthusian limit, or a major disaster like crop failures from a fungus could easily cause the community to collapse into disorder, famine, and subsequent restabilization under Bronze Age warlords (hence explaining the progression from primitive communism to slavery).

An Industrial society on the other hand has factories, fertilizer, and most importantly technology so as to increase food and material good output whereby in theory the society could be a post-scarcity one (if it overthrows the bourgeoise which limit this limitless potential from being unleashed). And furthermore one in which is highly resistant (through pesticides, fertilizer, industrialized farming) to subsequent collapse from a random natural disaster and also being blessed with a greatly higher Malthusian limit (thus forgoing collapse and overthrow of the system to strongman and a return to slavery).

This all of course assumes that warlords and "bad guys" can only overthrow a communal society when it is weakened from a lack of material resources, and not because one of the "bad guys" fools the masses into taking power. It also assumes that a communalistic community of people would fight back against a bunch of warlords and not cower if it was "the best of times" so to speak and only in the "worst of times" could it lose the fight. Therefore I find Karl Marx's assumptions to be somewhat naive.

Also an Industrialized society would still have it's own Malthusian limit before it runs out of oil, housing, climate change, or other related issues that bring it crashing down Communist or not.
 
Having to wait for someone to pump my gas in Oregon sucks.

Whereas having to pump my own gas is negative utility for me, especially when I forget to close the gas tank afterward.

I pretty much never have to wait in NJ, sounds like Oregon needs to get its **** together.

But for 99.9% of people they don't need or want the help, it's just annoying & then you feel pressured to tip the poor bastard.

We don't do that in Jersey.

You're one of the most contemptuous people I've ever seen on the internet in the almost 30 years I've been on here

Can't decide if this is because I'm a giant badass or that you've just never left the kiddie pool to get into the big pool.

How exactly do you jump from "judging that a job is pointless and doesn't provide an actual service" to "having contempt for a fellow human being" ?

I think that believing other people's work is in some sense not real is highly correlated for contempt for the person doing that job. For example, in my post I singled out torturers and secret policemen because I have contempt for that kind of work and for the people who do it.

In the US we have a long history of degrading labor while also degrading the people who do it, slavery being the prime example but also extending to forms of work traditionally done by women such as child-rearing. The kinds of societies where necessary work is held in contempt are also the societies that tend to treat the workers doing that work as less than human.
 
If you have $35,000 to give to someone in exchange for something, you can find a million better things to than compel them to be a gas attendant. Why is forcing gas attendants a better system than spending that on anything else?
 
Whereas having to pump my own gas is negative utility for me, especially when I forget to close the gas tank afterward
If you can't remember to close the gas tank maybe you shouldn't be on the road
We don't do that in Jersey
I always used to tip $1 when I lived there
Can't decide if this is because I'm a giant badass or that you've just never left the kiddie pool to get into the big pool.
Big pool? I mean I've never been on Twitter, I have heard that's it's full of even angrier and more passive aggressive losers tho
 
Moderator Action: We don't need any more personal jabs. Thanks.
 
Young people, or those just entering the workforce, or those looking for part time or casual, work do need jobs that teach them about work, about money and about working with other people. Those jobs should not be expected to be ones of grand ambition or long term promise, or even be ones that support more than a minimal contribution to a basic lifestyle.
 
If you have $35,000 to give to someone in exchange for something, you can find a million better things to than compel them to be a gas attendant. Why is forcing gas attendants a better system than spending that on anything else?

I'm not suggesting we should force anyone to be a gas station attendant and also like I said earlier, we gotta phase out gas-burning cars quick anyway, but also as stated above I belive it is progressive insofar as it makes things easier for those who cannot, or cannot easily, pump their own gas.

If you can't remember to close the gas tank maybe you shouldn't be on the road

Frankly, I wish I didn't have to be on the road (much prefer riding the train) but this country has stupid infrastructure so here we are. Anyway consider that maybe I simply grew up in a state where I never pumped my own gas, and thereby never got the muscle memory to effortlessly handle the process of doing so.
I do find it interesting that after accusing me of being the most contemptuous person you've ever seen, you immediately jump to insulting me instead of just thinking we have different sets of experiences.

I always used to tip $1 when I lived there

I've done it, but to my knowledge it isn't expected, exactly because it's seen as the standard thing that's done for every customer. Just part of the general package of going to the gas station.

Big pool? I mean I've never been on Twitter, I have heard that's it's full of even angrier and more passive aggressive losers tho

Really, almost anywhere else on the internet you will find much bigger cyberbullies than me. And it's not like unpleasant people are difficult to find IRL either.

Also, I may be ugly and hate-filled, but, uh, what was that third thing you said? (Seriously, passive-aggressive? I'm just aggrssive-aggressive, because the remote interaction allows me to jettison empathy and behave without propriety)

This is where the weird projection begins, hope that helps

Projection, is it? Hey, remember in the lying flat thread, when you came in hot with insults that people who weren't #hustling were "pro-surrender" or whatever?

To tie that to this thread, what would you say if I told you I would be fine with lifeguarding my whole life and the only problem with it was it didn't pay me enough to live? Something contemptuous about my lack of drive and ambition, maybe? Perhaps including the phrase "basic *****" or some such?
 
I feel you, I kinda enjoyed my dishwashing job @ age 18 but when I was dishwashing @ 40 it was depressing af.
Dishwashers aren't useless though, regardless of how much the individual washing the dishes likes (or hates) the job, regardless of the fact that there are machines that can wash dishes, and regardless of the fact that people can wash their own dishes. That's the point. As an aside "dishwasher" is another job that I had and that I think I benefitted greatly from having. I learned all about grease traps, industrial sinks and a bunch of other stuff. That was certainly a job where at the end of the shift, I felt like I had really earned my money, with a ton of figurative and literal elbow grease.
It's cool it made feel you useful but at the end of the day it's still a stupid law for NJ to not let people pump their own gas & create more cost & inefficiency for gas station owners.
Like I said, its not inefficient. It actually ends up being faster at the pump that way. Also, the gas in New Jersey, despite being full-service, is sometimes cheaper than in neighboring self-serve states. When I lived in Philly I went to Jersey almost everyday and the gas was always cheaper across the Ben Franklin bridge.
If you haven't been doing busywork & just hung out w the gas station owner apprentice-style you could've learned even much more in way less time.
No, I couldn't have, because the owner wasn't there. The owner was never there. I was there by myself. That's often how it works at a small self-serve gas station/convenience store. You are the only person on shift at a time.
When I did pizza delivery it was cool for a few weeks & I learned how the pizza business runs but w a crummy job the education ends and the tedium begins after a few weeks
I did that job too and something that I learned is to tip delivery guys well, because the wages are crap and you have to pay for your own gas, your own vehicle repairs, use your own car, which gets all tore up, many/most people don't even tip you and get mad at you for the food being cold, or taking too long to arrive, even though that's out of your control. You're right that its a thankless job, and having done it, I greatly appreciate, and have great affection for the folks doing the job, so I try to always treat them very well.
Even if your job was as romantic as you remember it surely we can do even better for the future, right? Evolution?
It wasn't "romantic"... it was work... and I was enriched and empowered by it. I'd like to think I am doing "better" now, but that's part of the point... "now" is the future compared to back then. Most people can't and don't start off their working lives with some utopian dream job, living their best life... Most people just need a job, any job... to get themselves started out. Then they can try to work their way up to stuff they may find more fulfilling or whatever, gradually.
 
I did that job too and something that I learned is to tip delivery guys well, because the wages are crap and you have to pay for your own gas, your own vehicle repairs, use your own car, which gets all tore up, many/most people don't even tip you and get mad at you for the food being cold, or taking too long to arrive, even though that's out of your control. You're right that its a thankless job, and having done it, I greatly appreciate, and have great affection for the folks doing the job, so I try to always treat them very well.

Same, though I was delivering Jimmy John's, not pizza. And I did it on a bicycle!
 
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