Social Evolution

[Narz]

The game "The Long Dark" makes a specific point of opening with a disclaimer/startup-message that it is "Made without crunch by people who care about players at a studio that cares about people".

As annoying as opening screens usually are, because I just want to get to the game... this is one opening message that actually feels nice and I don't mind seeing every time I start the game.

Not a nostalgic person but

 

[uppi]

You're missing something here. Part of why you don't see many full-serve pumps where self-serve is legal goes back to what @RobAnybody said... if he has a choice as a consumer, he's picking self-serve. So its not correct to say that the fact that most gas stations are self serve is because its cheaper to be self-serve versus full-service. Its not necessarily cheaper to be self-serve, but in an environment where other gas stations are self-serve, you have pressure to be self-serve as well, or else you lose business to the self-serve stations. In a system where self-serve is not allowed, its possibly cheaper to be full-service. Again, New Jersey seems to prove this.

First, most customers choosing self-serve when they can, means they perceive the attendants as negative added value (for whatever reason).

Second, no one would be stopping gas station owners to offer self-serve pumps and attended pumps.

Third, when I was in Sicily last year, gas stations usually offered both and the price on the attended pumps was 10 cents/liter (or even more) higher than on the self-serve pumps.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Not a nostalgic person but

As awesome and epic as that opening screen was... after I watched a good opening scene a few times I would generally just skip it whenever possible.

First, most customers choosing self-serve when they can, means they perceive the attendants as negative added value (for whatever reason).

But this is irrelevant, because my proposal to eliminate self-serve is not about increasing perceived value of gas pump attendants, its about forcing stations to hire more workers.

Second, no one would be stopping gas station owners to offer self-serve pumps and attended pumps.

This is also missing the point. If self-serve is offered alongside full-service, the customers will generally choose self-serve. That is precisely why I propose eliminating self-serve... so that customers can't choose it and stations are forced to hire more workers.

Third, when I was in Sicily last year, gas stations usually offered both and the price on the attended pumps was 10 cents/liter (or even more) higher than on the self-serve pumps.

That is generally the case... when self-serve is offered alongside full-service, the full-service option costs more, but that isn't a valid comparison to what I am proposing, ie what happens in New Jersey, (ie NO self-serve option) for numerous reasons. Just to name a few... First, because my proposal isn't about lowering cost, its about creating more jobs. I'm not saying we should eliminate self-serve because full-service is cheaper, I'm saying we should eliminate self-serve, because mandating full-service will create more jobs. So if the cost goes up that's fine, you're still employing more people.

Second, the cost may be higher when you offer both simultaneously, because you are trying to incentivize people to do it themselves, so you don't have to hire as many attendants, while still giving the option for people who don't want to (or are not able to) pump it themselves, and are willing to pay that premium. Also, you are also creating a class-based incentive... you make the people who are paying extra for full-service feel like they are better than those who pay less to do it themselves. This kind of marketing tactic is used all the time in all sorts of businesses, amusement parks, restaurants, etc. People will pay more to feel superior and get a feeling that they are getting a VIP/luxury experience that others can't afford.

Another issue, is that if you are offering both simultaneously, you still have to spend more to maintain the aesthetics of all the pumps because customers are going to be getting out of their cars and looking at the condition of the pumps, even the full-service ones and paying more attention to the condition of the pumping area in general. If the pumping area is raggedy-looking it will reflect poorly on your business and potentially lose you customers, whereas if the customers don't even get out of their cars they will be less concerned with the condition of the station and you can spend less on maintaining the appearance, thus saving money. Anecdotally, I've found that stations that only offer full-service have less pumps, older pumps and are often in more run down condition, possibly because they don't have to worry as much about appearances.

Also, what used to be the case and may still be, in some places which offer both simultaneously, is that when you pay for full-service, you are technically entitled to more than just having your gas pumped for you. Sometimes "full-service" entitled you to a window cleaning, fluid (oil/transmission/windshield wiper) level check, tire pressure check etc., which would justify the higher cost. Sometimes the attendants would do it automatically, and sometimes you had to ask for it. Nowadays, at least in New Jersey, the attendants aren't bothering with any of that, and they aren't expected to. I have no idea how it works in Sicily, but when I was in mainland Italy, full-service meant you got extra services besides pumped gas, at least at the stations I visited.

 

[Narz]

As awesome and epic as that opening screen was... after I watched a good opening scene a few times I would generally just skip it whenever possible.

Yeah, I usually skipped it too but the music is nostalgic tho.

Crazy how my friend playing Civ one day in 1992 altered the course of my life lol (at the time I was not interested at all, I wanted to play outside but I borrowed his 6 discs to copy it to my computer later cause I thought it looked better than SimCity). If I hadn't gotten into foruming in general (of which this was the 1st) I probably wouldn't have met my first baby-momma (which would've saved me a lot of misery but also my elder daughter wouldn't have existed).

 

[uppi]

But this is irrelevant, because my proposal to eliminate self-serve is not about increasing perceived value of gas pump attendants, its about forcing stations to hire more workers.

This is also missing the point. If self-serve is offered alongside full-service, the customers will generally choose self-serve. That is precisely why I propose eliminating self-serve... so that customers can't choose it and stations are forced to hire more workers.

It is very relevant, because this is where we disagree: I don't think we should be forcing the creation of negative value jobs. You could be paying the same people to pick up garbage on the streets and everyone would be better off.

Edit: or you could pay people to do nothing, and society would still benefit.

 

[Hygro]

We need about 400,000 more recycling pickers.

 

[RobAnybody]

fwiw, NJ is 27th in gas prices. My state, NC, where attendants aren't mandated, is 10th.

AAA Fuel Prices

So attendants don't make gas prices cheaper on a statewide basis & when offered beside self-service at the same station the self-service is cheaper. And in states where companies can choose, they have overwhelmingly chosen self-service, indicating they find it the more cost-effective option to maximize profits.

People can push for mandating whatever jobs they want of course - I mean, advocating for breaking windows at random & then mandating window installers would create jobs. But the idea that gas attendants are cheaper than self-service just doesn't hold up in light of the evidence.

 

[Broken_Erika]

I've seen combo full serve and self serve stations in my city, most stations are self serve but there are full serve stations here

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yeah, I usually skipped it too but the music is nostalgic tho.

Crazy how my friend playing Civ one day in 1992 altered the course of my life lol (at the time I was not interested at all, I wanted to play outside but I borrowed his 6 discs to copy it to my computer later cause I thought it looked better than SimCity). If I hadn't gotten into foruming in general (of which this was the 1st) I probably wouldn't have met my first baby-momma (which would've saved me a lot of misery but also my elder daughter wouldn't have existed).

Dude you let a gamer-girl slip away?? Damn...

As an aside... what are the odds she says the same about you?

 

[Farm Boy]

We need about 400,000 more recycling pickers.

<shudders> I'd rather hoe.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Don't talk about it, be about it

 

[Sommerswerd]

We need about 400,000 more recycling pickers.

Sure, but more that that... we need more consistent deliverables in recycling. Right now "recycling" is mostly just that... scare quotes glorified trash. For one thing, I'd favor banning single use plastic bottles and going back to standardized glass beer/soda bottles... requiring manufacturers to sanitize and reuse recycled glass instead of new plastic.

 

[Hygro]

Sure, but more that that... we need more consistent deliverables in recycling. Right now "recycling" is mostly just that... scare quotes glorified trash. For one thing, I'd favor banning single use plastic bottles and going back to standardized glass beer/soda bottles... requiring manufacturers to sanitize and reuse recycled glass instead of new plastic.

This is a much better use of our communism than gas station attendants!

 

[Narz]

Dude you let a gamer-girl slip away?? Damn...

I used to be a rawfood fanatic, so she was a raw food weirdo, I just got started on this forum.

 

[GenMarshall]

I think the problem here (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that the degradation, soul-crushingness, and so on, comes from the material conditions surrounding the job. It doesn't have to come from the job itself.

I'm nether a Socialist, Communist, nor a Marxist, so I do not know anything about "material conditions" and it's definition and meaning wasn't best explained to someone who's an ether anti-communist and/or average normie lay person.

 

[Farm Boy]

Don't talk about it, be about it

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Seriously though, going out to check spider mites tomorrow. Probably going to take a hoe to some volunteer corn while we're out there.

 

[Gorbles]

I'm nether a Socialist, Communist, nor a Marxist, so I do not know anything about "material conditions" and it's definition and meaning wasn't best explained to someone who's an ether anti-communist and/or average normie lay person.

I wasn't referring to any political theory?

They're both words with regular meanings. Both material (as supposed to immaterial); relating to physical (non-abstract) things and conditions (environmental factors around any given thing; living conditions, working conditions, and so on).

 

[Arwon]

I have literally never seen a petrol station where you don't put your own petrol in your own car. Somehow I missed it even living in the US (San Diego) for two years, but it definitely doesn't exist in Australia.

I can't imagine any petrol station business would be willing to pay someone Australian wages just to do it, their margins are razor think. Do they mostly work for tips at below minimum wage in the US like restaurant staff?

 

[Arwon]

fwiw, NJ is 27th in gas prices. My state, NC, where attendants aren't mandated, is 10th.

AAA Fuel Prices

So attendants don't make gas prices cheaper on a statewide basis & when offered beside self-service at the same station the self-service is cheaper. And in states where companies can choose, they have overwhelmingly chosen self-service, indicating they find it the more cost-effective option to maximize profits.

People can push for mandating whatever jobs they want of course - I mean, advocating for breaking windows at random & then mandating window installers would create jobs. But the idea that gas attendants are cheaper than self-service just doesn't hold up in light of the evidence.

State by state prices will be largely a product of the economics of supply (the path crude oil takes to a refinery and then from the refinery to users), any difference in fuel and sales taxes, and then retail costs.

Here's a graphic from the US EIA.

 

[RobAnybody]

I mean, sure, thanks, but my post you quoted was simply addressing whether or not "having gas station attendants who pump your gas for you" makes gas cheaper.