Socialism

[nonconformist]

I haven't got time to do this now, but all I'm going to say is the Bolsheviks stole the revolution from the people who it rightly belonged to.

They hijacked the great insurrection of February 1917, vanguarded by the Navy, Army and Workers, and turned it into their own twisted, manipulated genocidal plan, culmination in the practical annihilation of the heroes of the revolution, and even the heroes of October, and wiped them all out at Kronstadt.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I haven't got time to do this now, but all I'm going to say is the Bolsheviks stole the revolution from the people who it rightly belonged to.

They "stole" it from people who were all too willing to turn over a peoples' movement to the bourgeoisie. The Mensheviks and Social Revs had their chance, and they blew it by turning power over to people making bank on continuing the war, when the revolution itself was about ending the war! And then they walked out when the Bolsheviks manned up and did what the Mensheviks should've done in February; they chose to leave the Soviet, no one kicked them out. They could have been part of the Soviet Union but chose not to be, they were so afraid of the responsibility that came with real power.

They hijacked the great insurrection of February 1917, vanguarded by the Navy, Army and Workers, and turned it into their own twisted, manipulated genocidal plan,

It was the Provisional Government, installed by your precious Mensheviks, who released Kornilov and his rebellious generals without so much as a slap on the wrist, and it was those generals and their virulent hatred for the Bolsheviks who laid the foundations of the Civil War.

culmination in the practical annihilation of the heroes of the revolution,

The heroes of the revolution either participated in the October revolt or were buried at the Mars Field.

and even the heroes of October, and wiped them all out at Kronstadt.

The Kronstadt rebels were a bunch of anarchists, they would have (and did) rebel against anyone and everyone. The suppression of that revolt was a sad thing, though. Arguably one of the Bolsheviks' worse mistakes.

Though they were by no means "all the heroes of October." Unless you're an anarchist.

 

[nonconformist]

"Communism without bolshevism" was the banner of the Kronstadt heroes, practically genocided by the Red Army.

One account of the Red Army's assault on Kronstadt has the soldiers practically revering the Sailros, due to their ferocity fighting. After practically destroying a house in gunfire, they entered it to find dying sailors firing at them with revolvers from the floor, in pools of their own blood, "we'll shoot you bastards till we run out of ammunition" was their cry.

The Bolsheviks were nothing less than genocidal buffoons, who could only hold on to power through genocide and mass murder.

Even amongst their own, regular purges had to be held, by the checka and the NKVD, before finally being handed over to Stalin, the logical successor of Lenin.

 

[nokmirt]

Cheesy I have read your post and alot of what you say does make sense. I have read the post about the restaurant. How the burger flipper gets paid the same as the waiter, and the waiter as much as the manager. Business owners are out of the picture. And the company based on its size decides the kind of governing democratic body runs it.

Could you elaborate on this a bit further, I have a strong conviction you are on to something here. Corruption must be severely hampered. This plan restructures the economy in such a way that everyone is happy. At least the worker, he works hard because he is going to get paid for his hard work. He does not go to work everyday groaning he is not making enough to feed and shelter his family.

His old capitalistic boss is getting paid an equal wage, and his old boss is unable to fly to Tahiti every month. But his former boss is happy because he has more than enough for his expenses. The strong modern ecomony, strengthened further by money going into taking care of the worker, is not wasted on extravagance. Everyone gets a piece of the pie. Nothing is wasted, the hegemony of the economy is shared by the people. Unlike the USSR everyone is taken care of. In the USSR the economy was not strong enough to take care of the workers. So other evils had to be applied to keep people in line, for instance the Gulag in Siberia, never had a shortage of customers. The people had to be controlled due to the weak economy. If I am right or wrong let me know. Points that I am unclear on enlighten me.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

"Communism without bolshevism" was the banner of the Kronstadt heroes, practically genocided by the Red Army.

One account of the Red Army's assault on Kronstadt has the soldiers practically revering the Sailros, due to their ferocity fighting. After practically destroying a house in gunfire, they entered it to find dying sailors firing at them with revolvers from the floor, in pools of their own blood, "we'll shoot you bastards till we run out of ammunition" was their cry.

The Bolsheviks were nothing less than genocidal buffoons, who could only hold on to power through genocide and mass murder.

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Even amongst their own, regular purges had to be held, by the checka and the NKVD, before finally being handed over to Stalin, the logical successor of Lenin.

Stalin was the least "logical" successor to Lenin. More like Trotsky was. Stalin was well-known as a member of the Bolshevik Right, And both Lenin and Trotsky despised him and thought him a half-wit. Lenin specifically said that Stalin would be dangerous as a Soviet Premier. The only reason Stalin came to power was his ability to use the half-minded weaklings Zinoviev and Kamenev against Trotsky (and then Bukharin against both of them), a process he had begun even before Lenin died, during the Civil War. No one liked Stalin, except maybe for Kamanev. Lenin certainly hated him, all the more after that insulting exchange with Nadezhda Kruspkaya, but generally because of his rudeness and crudeness, his love for bureaucracy, and his inability to craft his own theories or ideas about pretty much anything. In that last measure, he was only exceeded by Kamenev and Zinoviev, which explains why he was able to manipulate them so.

 

[Bill3000]

Jesus Christ, Stalin looked like Borat.

 

[nokmirt]

Barack Obama was seated next to a little girl on an airplane trip back to Washington. He turned to her and said, “Let’s talk. I’ve heard that flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”

The little girl, who had just opened her book, closed it slowly and said to The Obama, “What would you like to talk about?”

“Oh, I don’t know,” said the Obama. “How about What Changes I Should Make To America?” and he smiles.

“OK,” she says. “That could be an interesting topic. But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?”

Obama, visibly surprised by the little girl’s intelligence, thinks about it for a second and finally says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”

To which the little girl replies, “Do you really feel qualified to change America when you don’t know your ass from a hole in the ground?”

What'd You Think?

 

[nonconformist]

Stalin was the logical successor to Lenin, maybe not according to Lenin (had Lenin had his way, it would probably have been Bukharin, whom would be regarded as more of a Social Democrat, or Zinoviev), but in action.

Lenin's establishment of the Cehcka under Dzerzhinsky, and the following mass arrests, purges and murders, totalling hunderds of thousands if estimates are to be believed.

In the words of the checka:
"Do not look in the file of incriminating evidence to see whether or not the accused rose up against the Soviets with arms or words. Ask him instead to which class he belongs, what is his background, his education, his profession. These are the questions that will determine the fate of the accused. That is the meaning and essence of the Red Terror."

Gorky:
"If the trial of the Socialist Revolutionaries will end with a death sentence, then this will be a premeditated murder, a foul murder. I beg of you to inform Leon Trotsky and the others that this is my contention. I hope this will not surprise you since I had told the Soviet authorities a thousand times that it is a senseless and criminal to decimate the ranks of our intelligentsia in our illiterate and lacking of culture country. I am convinced, that if the SR's should be executed the crime will result in a moral blockade of Russia by all of socialist Europe. "

Zinoviev:
" To overcome of our enemies we must have our own socialist militarism. We must carry along with us 90 million out of the 100 million of Soviet Russia's population. As for the rest, we have nothing to say to them. They must be annihilated. "

and your precious Lenin:

"Comrades!... You must make example of these people. (1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich bastards, and known bloodsuckers. (2) Publish their names. (3) Seize all their grain. (4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram."

Stalin was Lenin's logical successor in terms of repression, terror, mass murder, crypto-genocide, and state-orchestrated purges.

 

[nonconformist]

The Kronstadt rebels were a bunch of anarchists, they would have (and did) rebel against anyone and everyone. The suppression of that revolt was a sad thing, though. Arguably one of the Bolsheviks' worse mistakes.

Though they were by no means "all the heroes of October." Unless you're an anarchist.

So why did their very manifesto ask for:
" 1. Immediate new elections to the Soviets. The present Soviets no longer express the wishes of the workers and peasants. The new elections should be held by secret ballot, and should be preceded by free electoral propaganda.
2. Freedom of speech and of the press for workers and peasants, for the Anarchists, and for the Left Socialist parties.
3. The right of assembly, and freedom for trade union and peasant organisations.
4. The organisation, at the latest on 10 March 1921, of a Conference of non-Party workers, soldiers and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt and the Petrograd District.
5. The liberation of all political prisoners of the Socialist parties, and of all imprisoned workers and peasants, soldiers and sailors belonging to working class and peasant organisations.
6. The election of a commission to look into the dossiers of all those detained in prisons and concentration camps.
7. The abolition of all political sections in the armed forces. No political party should have privileges for the propagation of its ideas, or receive State subsidies to this end. In the place of the political sections various cultural groups should be set up, deriving resources from the State.
8. The immediate abolition of the militia detachments set up between towns and countryside.
9. The equalisation of rations for all workers, except those engaged in dangerous or unhealthy jobs.
10. The abolition of Party combat detachments in all military groups. The abolition of Party guards in factories and enterprises. If guards are required, they should be nominated, taking into account the views of the workers.
11. The granting to the peasants of freedom of action on their own soil, and of the right to own cattle, provided they look after them themselves and do not employ hired labour.
12. We request that all military units and officer trainee groups associate themselves with this resolution.
13. We demand that the Press give proper publicity to this resolution.
14. We demand the institution of mobile workers' control groups.
15. We demand that handicraft production be authorised provided it does not utilise wage labour.
"

Doesn't sound very anarchist...in fact it sounds like socialism.

 

[nokmirt]

So why did their very manifesto ask for:
" 1. Immediate new elections to the Soviets. The present Soviets no longer express the wishes of the workers and peasants. The new elections should be held by secret ballot, and should be preceded by free electoral propaganda.
2. Freedom of speech and of the press for workers and peasants, for the Anarchists, and for the Left Socialist parties.
3. The right of assembly, and freedom for trade union and peasant organisations.
4. The organisation, at the latest on 10 March 1921, of a Conference of non-Party workers, soldiers and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt and the Petrograd District.
5. The liberation of all political prisoners of the Socialist parties, and of all imprisoned workers and peasants, soldiers and sailors belonging to working class and peasant organisations.
6. The election of a commission to look into the dossiers of all those detained in prisons and concentration camps.
7. The abolition of all political sections in the armed forces. No political party should have privileges for the propagation of its ideas, or receive State subsidies to this end. In the place of the political sections various cultural groups should be set up, deriving resources from the State.
8. The immediate abolition of the militia detachments set up between towns and countryside.
9. The equalisation of rations for all workers, except those engaged in dangerous or unhealthy jobs.
10. The abolition of Party combat detachments in all military groups. The abolition of Party guards in factories and enterprises. If guards are required, they should be nominated, taking into account the views of the workers.
11. The granting to the peasants of freedom of action on their own soil, and of the right to own cattle, provided they look after them themselves and do not employ hired labour.
12. We request that all military units and officer trainee groups associate themselves with this resolution.
13. We demand that the Press give proper publicity to this resolution.
14. We demand the institution of mobile workers' control groups.
15. We demand that handicraft production be authorised provided it does not utilise wage labour.
"

Doesn't sound very anarchist...in fact it sounds like socialism.

Your definition of Socialism or should we call it British Socialism. The brand of Socialism, the new wave Socialism, 98% of us do not understand. Only 2% realize the worth of this dribble drabble. The same old arguements over and over.

 

[nonconformist]

It's not British socialism, you are aware Kronstadt is in Russia, yeah?

 

[Whomp]

I don't understand, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

My point was Galbraith thought like you. His vision in "Industrial State" may have sounded good but GM, US Steel and AT&T didn't even come remotely close to his monopoly view.

 

[RalofTyr]

Stalin is the only one smiling.

Isn't that just creepy?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

It's not British socialism, you are aware Kronstadt is in Russia, yeah?

Just ignore him, he's nothing but a troll everywhere he goes. I've marked him on the "suspected DL" list as well, though no incriminations are yet planned.

I'll be able to answer your posts in a while, but not right now.

 

[nokmirt]

Just ignore him, he's nothing but a troll everywhere he goes. I've marked him on the "suspected DL" list as well, though no incriminations are yet planned.

I'll be able to answer your posts in a while, but not right now.

what is suspected DL is that a troll? I know everywhere I go he is there.

 

[Masada]

I'm frankly embarrassed Cheezy and you can guess why.

 

[nokmirt]

This is embarrassing too. Me and my buddy found this. And think of all the people who voted a Kenyan into office. Its nice to have freedom of opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bloHSojeLAw

 

[Cutlass]

This is embarrassing too. Me and my buddy found this. And think of all the people who voted a Kenyan into office. Its nice to have freedom of opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bloHSojeLAw

He was born in America. No matter what a bunch of racists and anti-American bigots want to claim. Get over it. If you can't oppose a guy and tell the truth at the same time, you have no business opposing him at all.

 

[nokmirt]

He was born in America. No matter what a bunch of racists and anti-American bigots want to claim. Get over it. If you can't oppose a guy and tell the truth at the same time, you have no business opposing him at all.

I get it you must be one of those Obama bots. They are infesting my homeland and fiancee agrees. I know most Americans are not under Obama's spell, I am glad of that. But I like your Yamamoto Destroyer from your civ game.

 

[Cutlass]

I get it you must be one of those Obama bots. They are infesting my homeland and fiancee agrees. I know most Americans are not under Obama's spell, I am glad of that.

Huh? That was just insane. Most American voters voted for him. Most American citizens know he's the legitimate president. Only the tiny extreme ultra radical lunatic fringe is drinking the kool aid and chanting the lies that he is not an America.