Something Interesting About Iraq

[sonorakitch]

There probably is a very high death toll, but let us not forget that the vast majority of those Iraqis dead can only thank their fellow Iraqis. The violence in Iraq today is wholly caused by the Sunni/Shia rift and the US is only running around trying to stop the bleeding. Very few casualties in Iraq have been caused by direct coalition strikes in comparison.

I do agree however that we have indeed created the situation in Iraq today. But to say that America has killed these people...however many...is dishonest. You can say that we created the environment where these people can kill each other though.

It is important to keep this in perspective Zardnaar.

~Chris

 

[emzie]

24 million refugee Americans? It's The Day After Tommarow all over again

 

[Zardnaar]

I did say that earlier on. The US created the situation Iraq is in now.

 

[sonorakitch]

I did say that earlier on. The US created the situation Iraq is in now.

Unfortunately the greatest error in calculation in the decision to invade Iraq is we assumed and expected the Iraqis were civil and respected human life... essentially on an even keel on the evolutionary ladder.

One has to wonder: is humankind really this murderous without government and order, or is it dictated by culture rather than species affiliation?

Oh well.

~Chris

 

[emzie]

Unfortunately the greatest error in calculation in the decision to invade Iraq is we assumed and expected the Iraqis were civil and respected human life... essentially on an even keel on the evolutionary ladder.

One has to wonder: is humankind really this murderous without government and order, or is it dictated by culture rather than species affiliation?

Oh well.

~Chris

You're right, Iraqis are an exception to the rule of people being occupied peacefully. No American would ever try and fight an occupying force government.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Poverty and theocracy are a dangerous combination.

Regardless of the casualty count (which is pretty horrible by number), the US has upset a hornet's nest in interfering with Iraq. They have ended a regime that was undoubtedly brutal, but have been unable to adequately replace it without massive civilian casualties.

 

[sonorakitch]

You're right, Iraqis are an exception to the rule of people being occupied peacefully. No American would ever try and fight an occupying force government.

Sorry, but I think you missed the point. The vast vast majority of Iraqi casualties have been committed between each other. The daily bombings occur in the busy souks of Baghdad bud, and these bombs aren't planted by us or planted against us. There is a culture war raging there now. Your analogy doesn't work because you are once again alluding that the casualties are occurring because of conflict soley between coalition troops and the Iraqi people.

You should know this as I suspect you read the news.

~Chris

 

[Lord_Iggy]

To clarify what I meant, it wasn't so much 'upsetting a hornets nest' as breaking apart the delicate glue holding a troubled nation together.

Anarchy feeds upon itself.

 

[nivi]

According to many sources there are 2 million external refugees and 1.8 million internal refugees. If the death toll was only of the order of 60,000 what are they all running from? Of course the higher number is more plausible. I sat next to a couple of Iraqi refugees on the plane - they were going to China - and they were in bad shape.

I haven't been to Iraq and I haven't counted the corpses; I just can't understand why there's a reluctance to accept a high death toll.

In the recent Lebanon war there were an estimated 300,000 internal Israeli refugees, but only 44 civillian dead.
The reason why so many refugees in Iraq and northern Israel isn't becuase of the dead, it is becuase it is and was impossible to have a normal life when bomb explode all around you.

 

[nonconformist]

No its a flawed way to count the dead. How many lied? Did they trump up the numbers? By how much and by how many?How many were counted twice?

Well, seeing as the data collected relied on the presence of death certificates, I'd say you're grasping at straws.

 

[nivi]

Well, seeing as the data collected relied on the presence of death certificates, I'd say you're grasping at straws.

But the goverment didn't issue 600,000 death certificates, so it's a moot point whetear they had them, it just goes to show you that the research was flawed .

 

[Eli]

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

This site collects all incidents. I don't know what their biases are, but at least it seems professional.

 

[Phlegmak]

Sorry, but I think you missed the point. The vast vast majority of Iraqi casualties have been committed between each other. The daily bombings occur in the busy souks of Baghdad bud, and these bombs aren't planted by us or planted against us. There is a culture war raging there now. Your analogy doesn't work because you are once again alluding that the casualties are occurring because of conflict soley between coalition troops and the Iraqi people.

You should know this as I suspect you read the news.

~Chris

The majority of Iraqi dead are caused by coalition forces. At least it was for the first two years. I don't know if the proportion changed to actually be mostly caused by other Iraqis now.

 

[Bamspeedy]

The majority of Iraqi dead are caused by coalition forces. At least it was for the first two years. I don't know if the proportion changed to actually be mostly caused by other Iraqis now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sectarian_violence

Even the questionable study that claimed 600,000 dead said that fewer than 1/3 came at the hands of the coalition.

Well, seeing as the data collected relied on the presence of death certificates, I'd say you're grasping at straws.

Yeah, supposedly they had death certificates for 90+% of them, but the Iraqi government doesn't have 550,000 death certificates (90%).
The analysis (by John Hopkins) of the data might be accurate, I just question the source of the original data (who went out and took the surveys?, college kids or an Iraqi that might have had a motive? All we know is "the survey takers wish to remain anonymous").

 

[Neomega]

No its a flawed way to count the dead. How many lied? Did they trump up the numbers? By how much and by how many?How many were counted twice? How many were not counted. How many were killed in disputes that had nothing to do with the war like gang violence and other common crime? The whole premis of how the numbers were collected is flawed. And the US doesn't keep a count.

the study was called the lancet study.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

Death certificates were used in the process, so lying was kept to a minimum.

I disagree with the study as well, as I feel the sample was not large enough to accurately portray the number of deaths.

With that said, it is the same method used as coming up for numbers for the holocaust, Stalin and Mao's regime, and saddam's mass graves.


Iraq body count is a direct tally, but they acknowledge the death count is bound to be higher, because of the way many families quickly and quietly bury their dead.

 

[Neomega]

And thousands of people from airstrikes? In the Iraqi Army, perhaps a few died, but that's what happens in the Army.

Many people were forced to serve in the Army. Not all soldiers voluntarily fought for Saddam.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Just forget about the 600,000 figure if it is such a problem. Even going with the lowball 60,000-100,000 figure proves the point quite nicely.

 

[useless]

if america didnt invade iraq it woudnt be in such a screwed up situation.

 

[Nylan]

if america didnt invade iraq it woudnt be in such a screwed up situation.

The US created the situation Iraq is in now.

Let me introduce you to a man named Saddam Hussein. Look at HIS death tolls (if you can even find an accurate number). Look at Iraq under HIS rule. Then complain.

 

[skadistic]

if america didnt invade iraq it woudnt be in such a screwed up situation.

No it would be in the previous screwed up situation where the sunni dominated and killed without resistence like when they gased the Kurds, drain the marshes displacing the marsh arabs, and put down shia uprisings with crushing force.


With freedom comes responcability. Iraqis chose to kill each other instead of work towards peace.