Space news /comments

If only the USA, Russia, EU, China, and India could all work together. Imagine the things we could do.
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Curiosity is actually a good example of international collaboration - different rover equipment was provided and funded by USA, Canada, Spain, France, Russia and Germany. It's already a great success on NASA part, successful landing of such a big thing on Mars is a unique achievement (and for Russian probes and rovers, Mars is apparently a cursed planet :(). Good luck to the mission - hopefully it will find something really interesting.
 
I really hope it makes some amazing discoveries, something to give interest in space exploration a kick in the pants.
 
If only the USA, Russia, EU, China, and India could all work together. Imagine the things we could do.
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They actually do cooperate a lot. I mean, except China, which is barred from this by US legislation. Some say they cooperate so much that it actually harms healthy competition between them. (I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, but there is a point there.)

What I don't understand is why NASA doesn't actually build on the success of one type of probe and exploit it to its fullest before moving on. I have said that before on this forum, but why not "mass produce" space probes? If the design is good and flexible and you've already spent hundreds of millions developing it, it's almost a crime to let it be after just one or two probes and move to something else. NASA could even sell their designs and know-how to other space agencies or private subjects who could then continue with the exploration without having to spend big money inventing what has already been invented.

Well, whoever convinced the politicians to spend that much money on a single Mars mission deserves a sainthood.

These "flagship" missions can be a curse, if they go over budget and start draining funding from other projects. And fail in the end. Fortunately this didn't happen with this one.
 
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in designing a probe that will work in multiple locations of the same planet, let alone different planets/bodies altogether. Basically these things are all so custom to their target planet and even landing location on their target they probably are not versatile at all. Just think of the atmospheric differences between Venus/Mars/Europa alone.

Could we design something that can be a mass produced jack of all trades? Probably, and it might be useful at the lower end of exploration requirements. A jack of all trades is by necessity a master of none.
 
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in designing a probe that will work in multiple locations of the same planet, let alone different planets/bodies altogether. Basically these things are all so custom to their target planet and even landing location on their target they probably are not versatile at all. Just think of the atmospheric differences between Venus/Mars/Europa alone.

I am speaking about Mars specifically. The difference in landing Mars Exp. Rovers (MER) in different places on the planet is trivial.

As for different planetary targets, ESA has already used the same basic design for an orbiting probe - Mars Express and Venus Express are both orbiting their planets and sending back data. And it saved money and development time as well. Now, if you come up with a basic design for an outer planets probe (the main issue there is how to keep it powered), you can easily adapt it to study Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, their moon systems, and the icy rubbish beyond the Kuiper Belt.

Could we design something that can be a mass produced jack of all trades? Probably, and it might be useful at the lower end of exploration requirements. A jack of all trades is by necessity a master of none.

Nope. The difficulty of adapting MER-based rovers for different tasks is negligible compared to the difficulty of designing a completely new vehicle and a completely new landing system for it. (It's like upgrading Leopard-2 instead of spending billions designing and building a completely new MBT). NASA could have easily ordered 10 more MERs with slightly different instrument sets for the price of one brand new MSL. With the nascent private space launch companies, even sending them to Mars would be cheaper.

The bottom line is, Mars is a big planet. It lacks oceans, so its surface area is roughly equal to all Earth's continents put together. There are extremely varied terrains and geologic formations to explore. If a truly robust exploration campaign was launched, we could cover much more of it for less money.

I am not saying we should stop striving towards more complex missions, I am just pointing out that the quantitative approach to exploration might potentially yield more data for the same money, and with far lower risk of failure.
 
Not really, because when we Iterate on these designs we are aiming for some new functionality the previous design was either not robust enough for or could not accommodate due to other technical limitations. The MSL, for example, relies on a novel landing system to deliver a quantitatively larger machine; you can see why this might demand new designs in some aspects.

It is because these missions are so expensive that we want each subsequent mission to be a.) more reliable, and b.) more expansive than previous missions. The desire is not to explore Mars comprehensively as such, but to explore it with greater and greater depth; this instrumentation sometimes calls for a better, different design.

That said, the MSL was very specifically designed to bring a considerable suite of applications to the planet, and the system as a whole proved effective. At this point you could argue for a shift of gears, but so long as the focus is vertical, not lateral, the need isn't really there.
 
Not really, because when we Iterate on these designs we are aiming for some new functionality the previous design was either not robust enough for or could not accommodate due to other technical limitations. The MSL, for example, relies on a novel landing system to deliver a quantitatively larger machine; you can see why this might demand new designs in some aspects.

I understand *why* NASA goes this way. I am saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be the best approach. The prevalent mentality in the US space programme ("been there, done that, let's move on to something else") can often be counter-productive.

It is because these missions are so expensive that we want each subsequent mission to be a.) more reliable, and b.) more expansive than previous missions. The desire is not to explore Mars comprehensively as such, but to explore it with greater and greater depth; this instrumentation sometimes calls for a better, different design.

These missions are so expensive because every probe is a prototype. It's a very wasteful way of conducting any kind of exploratory campaign. It's also more risky, because this approach involves putting all the eggs in one basket each time a probe is sent.

That said, the MSL was very specifically designed to bring a considerable suite of applications to the planet, and the system as a whole proved effective. At this point you could argue for a shift of gears, but so long as the focus is vertical, not lateral, the need isn't really there.

And if MSL had failed, that would basically be the end of US Mars exploration for the next 10 years or more. It's a wonderful machine, but it's one of the kind. Now if you built a couple more, sent them to *different* places on the planet and compared their results, imagine how much more would you learn for the same R&D investment.

(I know it seems I am complaining here, but in reality I am just presenting an alternative view that I don't necessarily want to advocate to the death ;) )
 
I understand *why* NASA goes this way. I am saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be the best approach. The prevalent mentality in the US space programme ("been there, done that, let's move on to something else") can often be counter-productive.

Sure, but it can often be productive as well. NASA chooses investing into something better every time because it wants to stay bleeding edge, pushing the envelope, etc. Let businesses muck about with the certainties!

On that note, I very much doubt it if NASA won't keep the design on hand, and would gladly sell it for enough dough to a private body interested in putting more probes on Mars. There just isn't any demand.

These missions are so expensive because every probe is a prototype. It's a very wasteful way of conducting any kind of exploratory campaign. It's also more risky, because this approach involves putting all the eggs in one basket each time a probe is sent.

Well, there's just no real reason to invest in mass-producing these probes. There's no particular demand for an extremely wide breadth of exploration, as mentioned above. There are diminishing returns from sending multiple of the same probe out there.

And if MSL had failed, that would basically be the end of US Mars exploration for the next 10 years or more. It's a wonderful machine, but it's one of the kind. Now if you built a couple more, sent them to *different* places on the planet and compared their results, imagine how much more would you learn for the same R&D investment.

Constructing multiple prototypes isn't as easy as ordering them from the store. If I may generalize, they are prototypes largely because we have to put them together from scratch. Doing the same thing multiple times, potentially doing it wrong multiple times, now that's wasteful.

(I know it seems I am complaining here, but in reality I am just presenting an alternative view that I don't necessarily want to advocate to the death ;) )

Acknowledged. :)
 
I am speaking about Mars specifically. The difference in landing Mars Exp. Rovers (MER) in different places on the planet is trivial.

Feel free to take your mass produced Fiat hatchback (or whatever you drive) on a trick through Antarctica. Or the Amazon. Or the Sahara. Or up Mount Everest...

The environments on Mars are very much varied. The only way to make something suitable for all of them at once is to over engineer it and have most of that engineering useless for the environment it is in. Every component present designed to be used in an environment the probe is not in reduces science payload.

Launch systems I can see having some commonality, but that again would restrict the final planet side payload to have to fit and work with it.

As for different planetary targets, ESA has already used the same basic design for an orbiting probe - Mars Express and Venus Express are both orbiting their planets and sending back data. And it saved money and development time as well. Now, if you come up with a basic design for an outer planets probe (the main issue there is how to keep it powered), you can easily adapt it to study Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, their moon systems, and the icy rubbish beyond the Kuiper Belt.

You will note that you are talking about orbital probes, or basically probes all doing the exact same thing in near the exact same environment. Orbital probes are just far simpler things as they have to do a far simpler thing.

Nope. The difficulty of adapting MER-based rovers for different tasks is negligible compared to the difficulty of designing a completely new vehicle and a completely new landing system for it.

So says you. I bet any engineer working on the science package of these things disagrees with you.

In the end the whole point of the mission is the science, the landing system and others are rightfully subordinate to that primary mission. If something is going to be designed around something else it shouldn't be the science package (as much as possible).

UNLESS, as Czerth said, you are looking for breath instead of depth. I am sure there is a very good reason scientists pick the second over the first. Maybe one day we will be at the point were the cost of delivery allows us to conduct redundant tests for various reasons, but right now if you are going to go through the cost of getting there you might as well get the biggest bang you can.

(It's like upgrading Leopard-2 instead of spending billions designing and building a completely new MBT).

No, its like upgrading a Leapard-2 instead of spending billions designing and building a completely new nuclear submarine.

NASA could have easily ordered 10 more MERs with slightly different instrument sets for the price of one brand new MSL. With the nascent private space launch companies, even sending them to Mars would be cheaper.

But again, limited themselves to what those instrument sets are based on the limitations of the MER. Would that yield nothing useful? Of course not. Is it yeilding what is desired? Maybe, but probably not.

Its a quality of quantity argument with both values really being a roll of the dice in the end regardless of the method as we simply don't know enough to guarantee results of any kind with any degree of confidence. The people building space probes, however, seem to feel there are better odds with the way they do things now.

The bottom line is, Mars is a big planet. It lacks oceans, so its surface area is roughly equal to all Earth's continents put together. There are extremely varied terrains and geologic formations to explore. If a truly robust exploration campaign was launched, we could cover much more of it for less money.

I bolded the part that makes your mass produced idea undesirable. It is extremely varied, which is why expecting a one size fits all vehicle to tackle it is dubious at best.

I am not saying we should stop striving towards more complex missions, I am just pointing out that the quantitative approach to exploration might potentially yield more data for the same money, and with far lower risk of failure.

I got you, and I honestly do think there is a place for what you say. I don't think ground based probes and rovers are where its at though, more in the orbital space based probes.
 
Not sure if this has been posted here, but I just read it and... wow: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/

Ernst Stuhlinger wrote this letter on May 6, 1970, to Sister Mary Jucunda, a nun who worked among the starving children of Kabwe, Zambia, in Africa, who questioned the value of space exploration. At the time Dr. Stuhlinger was Associate Director for Science at the Marshall Space Flight Center, in Huntsville, Alabama. Touched by Sister Mary’s concern and sincerity, his beliefs about the value of space exploration were expressed in his reply to Sister Mary. It remains, more than four decades later, an eloquent statement of the value of the space exploration endeavor.

...
 
Feel free to take your mass produced Fiat hatchback (or whatever you drive) on a trick through Antarctica. Or the Amazon. Or the Sahara. Or up Mount Everest...

Not a valid analogy.

The environments on Mars are very much varied. The only way to make something suitable for all of them at once is to over engineer it and have most of that engineering useless for the environment it is in. Every component present designed to be used in an environment the probe is not in reduces science payload.

MERs were designed for a typical surface of Mars - sandy, rolling plains. They obviously can't go up/down steep slopes, cliffs, or navigate too rocky a terrain (neither can MSL, for that matter), so chaos terrains, fossae, mensae, etc. would be difficult (also for other reasons - shadowed areas can't be explored by solar-powered probes, for instance). But that still leaves huge areas of Mars for exploration, and this kind of probe can easily do this kind of job.

So, it's not like sending a Fiat from European roads to Brazilian rainforest to Antarctica to the Himalayas, it's far from it. It would be like sending a desert-adapted vehicles from Sahara to some other desert environment. It's not like the MERs can only operate in the general areas where they landed, that's so not true.

You will note that you are talking about orbital probes, or basically probes all doing the exact same thing in near the exact same environment. Orbital probes are just far simpler things as they have to do a far simpler thing.

It's not far simpler, in many ways it's pretty difficult. The point was, you can create a set of basic designs (inner solsys probe, outer solsys probe, Mars rover, outer solsys moon lander, etc. etc.) and then adapt them for particular mission needs for a fraction of the cost of developing an entirely new probe, especially if this was available to other space agencies.

So says you. I bet any engineer working on the science package of these things disagrees with you.

I bet he doesn't. The two identical MERs landed on different places of the planet, and due to the nature of their landing systems, the engineers were not sure where exactly they'd land. That's why they can deal with variety of navigable terrains, which happen to cover most of Mars. That's a fact, deal with it.

UNLESS, as Czerth said, you are looking for breath instead of depth. I am sure there is a very good reason scientists pick the second over the first. Maybe one day we will be at the point were the cost of delivery allows us to conduct redundant tests for various reasons, but right now if you are going to go through the cost of getting there you might as well get the biggest bang you can.

MERs are basically a (rather awkward) robotic alternative to a human geologist. If you want to understand a place from a geological standpoint, you need far more than one short field trip. This is what the MER mission(s) essentially amounted to. Far more exploration is needed to get a picture of Martian geological history - we need to find out if Mars ever had large oceans or not, when the volcanoes ceased to be active, when did the atmosphere begin eroding, etc. etc. etc. More MER-based vehicles would be a cost-efficient way of doing such a large scale geological survey of Mars in the absence of a human landing (which would be preferable for so many other reasons).

(I am not arguing against MSL here; I am arguing against the general wastefulness of robotic exploration programmes which develop great probes, only to abandon them and spend fortunes developing different ones. I think if a design is successful, it should be utilized to its maximum potential, until it clearly cannot cope with the new mission requirements.)

I bolded the part that makes your mass produced idea undesirable. It is extremely varied, which is why expecting a one size fits all vehicle to tackle it is dubious at best.

I didn't say the probes couldn't go there, because they could. When I said "extremely varied" I meant their origin and history as well as appearance. For example, we need to know how much of Mars' surface was underwater, and for how long. The first MERs found rocks that can only form in the presence of water. But are there others? At different places around Mars? We don't know - we can guess based on some very clever orbital scans, but having more rovers cover more areas of Mars would be much more preferable.

For instance, we could choose a number of locations which we think are representative of a particular type of terrain we find on Mars, and send a probe to each. Then compare the results. I suspect our knowledge of the planet's past would grow exponentially then.

The same with MSL - if it finds something very interesting, we will still be in the dark concerning the scope of what we've found. Is it just a localized phenomenon? An anomaly? Or¨is this kind of thing ubiquitous on Mars? Or just on one hemisphere? Well, send more probes to find out! The basic design is available, building Mk.2 versions will be (relatively) cheap and fast, and sending these every 2-4 years will keep the planetary exploration division of NASA busy for decades while producing results the agency needs. The accumulated experience will also be useful for future missions of different kinds.
 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120829-sugar-space-planets-science-life/

A sweet discovery.

Please ignore the hyperbolic title of the article. And the hyperbolic summation.
In fact, ignore pretty much everything in the article, except that a monosaccharide was found in space and the sweet pun.

Actually, I'll just copy/paste the wiki part on this discovery, as that is quite a bit more informative:

Glycolaldehyde has been identified in gas and dust near the center of the Milky Way galaxy, in a star-forming region 26000 light-years from Earth, and around a star 400 light years from Earth. Observation of in-falling glycolaldehyde spectra 60 AU from a protostellar binary, IRAS16293-2422, suggests that complex organic molecules may form in stellar systems prior to the formation of planets, eventually arriving on young planets early in their formation.

Oh how I hate science journalism.
 
Well i would not call it a "complex organic molecule" as it is almost the same as ethanol (common alcohol) changing a couple of hydrogens by an oxygen, ethanol being one of the first organic compounds detected in space. So nothing unexpected here i would say. It is somewhat eye-catching though to find "sugar" in space.
 
Well i would not call it a "complex organic molecule" as it is almost the same as ethanol (common alcohol) changing a couple of hydrogens by an oxygen, ethanol being one of the first organic compounds detected in space. So nothing unexpected here i would say. It is somewhat eye-catching though to find "sugar" in space.

The Wiki entry didn't call it a complex molecule, it just said that complex organic molecules might form in space.

But with sugar and alcohol in space, there should be room for a party there.
 
Is this something that can form just from molecules bumping into eachother? Or does it require a certain interesting environment (higher pressure / temp / catalysis)?
 
Is this something that can form just from molecules bumping into eachother? Or does it require a certain interesting environment (higher pressure / temp / catalysis)?
When working with so simple molecules you dont need any catalysts necessarily, only a good amount of brute force. Industrially they use catalysis to spend less energy but in space near stars you have plenty of it, from radiation, high speed molecular collisions, etc...

So starting from the simplest precursors i can think of now it probably would form from semi-oxidation of 1,2-Ethanediol, where one of the two alcohol group oxidizes to aldehyde. The whole oxidation chain starting from basic hydrocarbons would be ethylene--->ethylene oxide--->1,2-Ethanediol--->glycolaldehyde. All you would need is a oxidative environment, as a cloud rich in oxygen.
 
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