Stairway to Heaven: my first Deity game

[ben-jammin]

No need for archery at all, nor barracks until you're actually going to build an army.

 

[ben-jammin]

Saver route would certainly be going towards pottery, with Mansa.
There are some cottage tiles here for sure
Fin leaders are good for Elepult as it's mostly researching, not bulbing.
I would consider the Oracle bad risk vs. reward in this situation, with needing AH first and delaying pottery.

I probably agree, but

Spoiler :

You get boxed in pretty hard on this map, there are no industrious AIs and none that start with mysticism. The awkward slow-growing capital meant that worker count was lagging in order to block off some land, cottaging didn't happen nearly as quickly as would be ideal.

 

[pomthom]

@georgjorge

Building Barracks instead of a Warrior when you still need units to fogbust is a mistake.

Duly noted, I agree.

if you go for Elepults, for instance, you might want to cottage your capital rather than the Floodplains city since you're looking at immediate commerce rather than long-term development.

Well I'm already working 6 just with 1 tile in Timbuktu, I'm not going to need to cottage a lot of other tiles to get a decent tech rate. But it's true that I probably won't be settling the FP site so soon.

@Fippy

Some thoughts..you should have stopped your worker last turn already, finishing that ph mine is not worth delaying copper for 2 turns.

Yep, not paying attention (I'm actually getting distracted by the preparation for the write-up )

Axe def. seems better now than Archery.

Seems obvious, don't possibly know how I did not think of that one...

Pyramids are always questionable with Fin, and happy res. around.
You can only do so much quickly, grow and cottage, or Pyras + hammers + chops.
Seems like a bad option, food is not your strength on this map imo.

I don't know. I'll have to see how my timing is. It could always be good fail gold...

It's not an easy deity starter map, and you should go with that 1 very good thing you have: Jumbos, without too much delay. Cottage Timbu quickly, and settle only what can contribute towards Elepult..either for research, or units (with beaker cities better being settled first, in this case that would prolly be floodplains + clams).

Problem is, if I don't settle the Stone first, I won't get it.

@BornInCantaloup

Next update, we'll need to know about the wonder (SH, GW, other?) and religious situation (Judaism).

My mistake! I can see on 1 of the screenshots that GW went in 2840 BC (don't know who). Will fill in next update.

@Swimming Fish: settling on the stone may be the right move: gets an extra flood plains (good, long term) and does a little better job at blocking land (more north = better). However, such a city requires a border pop and that means it has a beaker cost.
Keep scouting SE, along the coast, there. who knows what other bonuses there are?

You may be right, I'll think about it. Although if I'm thinking long-term I'm also putting +2 desert tiles in the BFC by doing so... I'll scout along the coast and decide then.

@Settling the next 2 cities by the southern coast: this is a no-go for me. Chances are you'll end up with cultural pressure from the north. Accessing the northern coast (rice, sugar) is a high stake priority, unless you really decide to rush.
Settling inland, as much as possible, will protect your tiles.

OK but what should I do: settle in the jungle? I do agree that the flood plains/Crab is not a priority "securing territory"-wise because it's maybe the only decent spot that's not immediately threatened.

The Crabs could be worked by a city to the east.

Yes but how crappy would it be! Maybe I will settle one to the East of Crabs once the flood plains city has grown enough and doesn't need it.

A city 2W1N of the copper seems very valuable to me: blocker + commerce. It could prepare for later settlements to the NW.

Yep why not, with cottage sharing with a later city South of the flood plains.

Myst, Mas, Fish, Pott, Sailing looks like an ok tech path to me (city 2 on stone, requires a plains hills mine + Mysticism; city 3 2W1N of copper, doesn't require much).

Myst will indeed depend on city placement. But all things considered I probably will skip Agri....

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You forgot about Sailing, don't forget about Sailing!

@settling in the jungle: if it's a 4th city and you can farm a grassland tile or two, then it's ok: you'll get Iron Working soon enough. Knowing IW straight off the bat isn't necessary.
Of course, if you're rushing (again), then you should be picky about your city sites.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

This probanly won't apply for this map, but in General:

When settling in Jungle, keep in mind that every Jungle in the BFC adds 0.25 Unhealthy. In the extreme of 17-20 Jungles one will get 5 Unhealthiness and at Diety Health is only about 5 with fresh water (not counting any pairs of forests). Add 1 unhealthiness for Population 1 and one is at -1 net Health (-3 net Health without fresh water) at Pop 1 when surrounded by jungles.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Doshin]

Pyramids are always questionable with Fin, and happy res. around.
You can only do so much quickly, grow and cottage, or Pyras + hammers + chops.
Seems like a bad option, food is not your strength on this map imo.

I agree 100% with this, buuuutttt... Pyramids are stronger with Spiritual leaders than any other, and, besides the boost to Rep specialists, the hammers spent on the Mids are soon earned back by whipping units when in Police State (~33 whips needed).

The important thing is not to sacrifice other areas, especially expansion, to build (what is here) an average wonder.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Sooo? City 2 might not be best settled by/on the stone? --- Securing the resource is ok but the hammer investment should be delayed?

What about Sailing? Am I the only one willing to mention the tech? Isn't it an island we can see to the south-west? Isn't it imperative that city 2 is settled coastal?

Forgoing the Pyramids, my preference would be to settle city 2 2W1N of copper. That will be easily productive and will ease access to the jungle belt/resources.
I reckon that the need for a border pop (on the stone city) is a large drawback for a 2nd city.

 

[Doshin]

The Stone site isn't good enough to serve as a second city. It will take a long time for that spot to contribute to your empire, since you lack Fishing and Masonry, and it will need to build a Work Boat before it can really grow (let's say ~10 turns).

Ideally, you want your second city to share an improved tile in your capital's BFC, or to benefit from the capital's Worker, which should have improved ~4 tiles by the time that the Settler has been produced (i.e. plenty enough for the capital to work while it whips and grows, so the Worker can move on to help elsewhere).

The western Floodplains area is probably your best bet, and I would settle a location that can borrow the Copper from the capital periodically. Every once in a while you will want to grow your capital (e.g. after a whip, or shortly before Civil Service is teched) and during that time another city should work the 1 Copper.

2W1N of the Copper will guarantee more land tiles, but 2W1S will provide easier access to the island(s). I don't think the Crab tile is that important, since another city can grab it later (you'd need Fishing + 60 for a Monument + Work Boat just to work a 4 3 tile. Sailing and another 60 would be needed to make that a 5 tile).

I think I would research Pottery after Agriculture. Cottaged Floodplain tiles are very strong for a Financial leader, and Granaries are desperately useful with this food poor start. Chop a Forest into a Granary at size 1, and then whip it ASAP at size 2.

 

[pomthom]

Thanks again guys for your time and comments, I really appreciate learning like this.

OK I played some more but first I'll respond to some of the comments.

I agree 100% with this, buuuutttt... Pyramids are stronger with Spiritual leaders than any other, and, besides the boost to Rep specialists, the hammers spent on the Mids are soon earned back by whipping units when in Police State (~33 whips needed).

The important thing is not to sacrifice other areas, especially expansion, to build (what is here) an average wonder.

Yes. I'm not going to build the Mids at all costs, I'll see how my growth + expansion pans out.

What about Sailing? Am I the only one willing to mention the tech? Isn't it an island we can see to the south-west? Isn't it imperative that city 2 is settled coastal?

I find Sailing attractive, and I almost went for it after settling my 2nd city but then I changed my mind and chose to go Pottery first: I decided to grab some land ASAP so I need to fuel my early expansion.

The Stone site isn't good enough to serve as a second city. It will take a long time for that spot to contribute to your empire, since you lack Fishing and Masonry, and it will need to build a Work Boat before it can really grow (let's say ~10 turns).

Yes but this is not just about how quick my cities will contribute because I am boxed in. The surrounding land is already poor as it is, if I let the AIs grab all the decent spots and I'm left with 3/4 ok-to-poor cities, my problem won't be how productive my empire is

In theory I agree 100%: I like neat, compact and efficient empires that share tiles and keep maintenance costs down. But here I prefer sacrificing intial momentum and settle decent medium-term spots that will give me some breathing space. Is there no sense in this? (+it doesn't bother me going Fishing + Masonry because I don't see other techs from which I could take immediate advantage from)

2W1N of the Copper will guarantee more land tiles, but 2W1S will provide easier access to the island(s). I don't think the Crab tile is that important, since another city can grab it later

True. However the advantage of settling 2W1N of Copper and 2N1W of Crab is that I'll have 2 decent close cities that can share cottages while growing. The Crab for the South city will just be a medium term boost until it is grabbed (or crabbed in this circumstance ) by another Eastern settlement.


And now the update

 

[pomthom]

Played ~20 turns: from 2760 BC to 2000 BC (turn 50)

First of all, as promised to BIC , the Great Wall was built in 2880 BC by Julius. But still no Stonehenge! (no Myst civs)
Buddhism went in 3520 BC and Hinduism in 3360 BC (founders unknown).

OK so after pondering BIC's advice I decide to finish up my 2nd Worker so as to improve the Copper faster and road to my second city spot. It will be by the Stone because as previously explained, I want to grab some land before I'm left with nothing but desert and plains, even though the city will be slow to become productive (as Doshin pointed out). I'll build a Settler just after the Worker.

Going for the Stone/Fish also means going Myst/Fish/Masonry (not necessarily in that order). I start with Fishing because the spot I have in mind (1S1E of Stone) has Fish in the inner BFC circle.

My 3 Warriors continue exploring and will try to fog bust.

2680 BC (turn 33):​

However, Kublai settles this:

Spoiler :

The spot I had in mind is not looking so good now because too close to him. So I decide to settle on the Stone as BIC had suggested. I lose the yield of the quarry but I gain a flood plains. I'll have to go Mysticism after Fishing.

2600 BC (turn 35):​

My Worker is finished, I start on my Settler.

Exploration continues, the map is crowded !

Spoiler :

2560 BC (turn 36):​

Oops.

Spoiler :

Oh well.

2520 BC (turn 37):​

Fishing > Mysticism.

Just after my Warrior dies of evil Barb slaughter, this Barb city is founded:

Spoiler :

Actually this is welcome because it will slow down the AI from settling the spot.

2360 BC (turn 41):​

We meet this guy:

Spoiler :

I put my EP on him, guessing he'll be a reasonable tech'er compared to others. He's the founder of Buddhism. No one else has converted yet.

My road to the Stone is almost finished and the Settler is due in 2 turns (Mysticism in 1):

Spoiler :

2320 BC (turn 42):​

Mysticism > Masonry. I hesitated with Pottery but decided against it and I don't remember why... seems like a bad choice looking back because I'll have to delay cottages a few turns later when I needed them.

Toku is getting closer and closer and I want to block him off, so I decide to go Settler > Settler to take the 1N2W of Copper spot. I send a Worker to chop a forest into the second Settler:

Spoiler :

I know this very aggressive expansion is going to slow me down for quite a while but it will guarantee I have enough cities to break out a clean elepult war when the time comes.

2280 BC (turn 43):​

My Settler is out and ready, he moves to the spot in 1 turn:

Spoiler :

2240 BC (turn 44):​

Djenne is founded. I start on a Monument while using 1 Worker to chop the forest 1S. That and the 2 city tile will give me a quick build.

Spoiler :

2200 BC (turn 45):​

Stonehenge is built in Carthage.

2080 BC (turn 48):​

Masonry > Pottery (even if it doesn't show in the screenshot). Time to cottage...

Settler > Axeman in Timbuktu. I need to grow and I'm being seriously threatened by a wandering Barb Archer... (who incidently is going to smash my Elephant ; "nice fog busting you douche !" )

Spoiler :

I send the Settler in the direction of the 1N2W of Copper spot.

2040 BC (turn 49):​

Busy turn!

Monument > Work Boat in Djenne.

Julius reaches Writing and we sign OB.

Kumbi Saleh is founded! It starts building a Worker. I seriously need those and not sure growing is very useful until I reach Pottery.

Spoiler :

The annoying Barb Archer smashes my Phants. I really don't want to have to whip the Axeman, so I prefer baiting him away from Timbuktu for a turn with my Warrior:

Spoiler :

Actually with the river penalty I probably have decent odds...

2000 BC (turn 50):​

And we survive!

Spoiler :

Roosevelt reaches Writing and we sign OB. He also has Gold to trade, but I'm keeping my Stone and Copper for now.



So here's our situation:

Spoiler :

Resources:



Culture:



Units:



Tech:



Diplo:

Priority 1 is to cottage-up now (don't have Phants anymore...).

If I manage to get the Gem as well as the Sugar spots, I'll have 6/7 cities which should be enough to Elepult someone.

I'm wondering whether or not I should prepare a Settler to gift a city to Toku...

Also not sure where to go after Pottery. Agri? Writing? Sailing? HBR?? I'm thinking Writing > Sailing.

What are your thoughts guys?

 

[Doshin]

Sailing is a distraction if you plan to Elepult, unless you desperately want to settle the islands. Remember that the longer you postpone teching to Construction, the sooner your attack will run into Longbows.

I think you built a second Worker before a first Settler? That's almost always a .

Don't forget to set up a trade routes with Kublai. You'll need the additional commerce very soon. Tokugawa won't open borders, so don't bother roading into him.

Tokugawa will attack Roosie before you, so there's no need to gift a city to him. Kublai is a threat to you, however. Who do you plan to attack?

BTW, I played this game out when it was first posted. This was me at 2000 BC:

Spoiler :

 

[pomthom]

@Doshin
Everybody has told me to forget about Archery and I see you've researched it. What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[georgjorge]

Not to say you shouldn't settle good cities if you have the opportunity to do so, but for Elepults often it is more of a problem to reach Construction + Horseback Riding soon enough than to have enough cities. Production-wise, Elepults can actually be done with as little as three cities - I've included a save where I declared in 325 BC (a little late) with an army produced by three cities (with more to come), and you can see that while I got a double-gold city the other two cities including the capital are really nothing special. So don't give up if you don't manage to get your six cities, Jumbos can still save the day.

 

[Doshin]

@Doshin
Everybody has told me to forget about Archery and I see you've researched it. What are your thoughts on the matter?

You were right not to research Archery. Basically, in my run I stole a Worker from Tokugawa, and decided to tech Archery just in case he wouldn't agree to make peace (he did). That led me to delay Bronze Working, and you can see from my 2000 BC screenshot that I had only just revealed Copper (still unimproved ).

And yep, jumbos can definitely save the day. But be aware that you will need more troops than on Immortal, and at an earlier date. So don't waste time, e.g., building Stables in every single city. This is also why I personally wouldn't tech Sailing (others might disagree).

 

[pomthom]

You were right not to research Archery. Basically, in my run I stole a Worker from Tokugawa, and decided to tech Archery just in case he wouldn't agree to make peace (he did). That led me to delay Bronze Working, and you can see from my 2000 BC screenshot that I had only just revealed Copper (still unimproved ).

OK I see. I also went the Myst/Masonry path so my start is definitely slower (sill not going Writing because my empire hasn't got the pop to run specialists for now). However I'm going to try to take that as an advantage by using the seafood for production (get some return on the 60 spent on Monument + Work Boat by whipping), and using the Mids for fail gold to fuel my tech'ing (hopefully it won't be constructed too late? knowing that this lot are going to be slow wonder-wise, what's a typical date for Mids to go on Deity?)

 

[Doshin]

Honestly, I couldn't say when the Mids typically go. It's usually a little after the Temple of Artemis.

The Mids cost 500 , so it can go pretty late. An AI without Marble can build the 150 Oracle in the blink of an eye... but if you have one of the few (~3) sources of Stone, and the AI that do have Stone avoid the Mids, well, the non-Stone have to make up the cost of 3.333 Oracles. It can take a while, even with their bonuses.

OTOH, the Great Wall went before Stonehenge in your game, right? That's usually a good sign that a leader has Stone hooked up, unless that leader was Industrious.

 

[Quibblesome]

Don't know if people already know the code but cost is heavily factored into the odds of the AI choosing a particular wonder when an AI rolls a wonder. This is why the 'Mids can go confusingly late because of its cost.
However there is also a ton of intentionally added noise to the outcome that makes it difficult to predict.

 

[pomthom]

Played ~45 turns: from 2000 BC to 525 BC (turn 94)

When we left off I was researching Pottery and didn't know what to do after. Since my goal is to Jumbo people to death, I decided on the following tech path:

(Pottery) > Agriculture > Writing > HBR​

Agri because I'll need it to compensate for lack of food (soon), Writing because Libraries, and HBR because that's enough straying away from the Jumbo path.

Hopefully trade HBR vs Alpha/Maths and then tech Construction.

I'll try to keep it not too tedious !

Spoiler :

1960 BC (turn 51):​

My dreams of Mids fail gold shudder to little pieces. Yeah, Julius has Stone alright... Oh well.

1880 BC (turn 53):​

We meet our final opponent: Hammy!

1760 BC (turn 56):​

Pottery > Agriculture

I start building Granaries everywhere + cottaging the flood plains

1600 BC (turn 60):​

Toku settles in my face...

1560 BC (turn 61):​

Agriculture > Writing

Kublai settles in my face...!!



Don't need Stone anymore so I trade it for Gold (Roosy).


BY THE WAY is this optimal Granary whipping?

Spoiler :

I try to time my growth/production so that on next turn 30 have been invested in the Granary (so I can 1-pop whip) and approx half the food bin is full:



Next turn I whip:

The North-East Sugar/Rice Barb city has still not been taken. I decide I'm going to raze it if I can because it won't be a good short-term spot because of Kublai's culture pressure + jungle + Calendar resource.

1280 BC (turn 68):​

Writing > HBR

I open borders with everyone except you-know-who-obviously and start building a Library in Timbuktu.

1080 BC (turn 73):​

The GLH has been built by now as well as the Hanging Gardens (by Julius of the Whoring Stones).

Aaaaaand... Julius is plotting ! A quick diplo glance indicates his target should be Hannibal.

975 BC (turn 76):​

I want to settle a 4th city South of the flood plains to support the cottaging. Timbuktu is at size 6 so I decide to whip a settler out.

I also whip a Library in Djenne, this is where I'll pump my first GS.

950 BC (turn 77):​

Julius declares war on Hannibal! Good news.

Toku starts sending out irritating demands. Bad news.



And that was my very first Deity middle finger!

925 BC (turn 78):​

Jules and Hanni are dorks:

Spoiler :

But Hanni manages to bribe in Toku. Very good news, at least he's off my back.

And I settle the city of Gao:

900 BC (turn 79):​

The Oracle goes (pretty late no??)

825 BC (turn 82):​

HBR > Alphabet
I'll do some trading as soon as I have a bit of beakers into Alpha.

Roosy is Pleased so I beg this from him:

800 BC (turn 83):​

There go the ToA and the Colossus.

AIs have been blindly stabbing at the Barb city, there are only 2 Archers left and I have 4 Axemen nearby. I go for it:





55 is always good

750 BC (turn 85):​

Trading time!!

Spoiler :

Pretty nice huh?

Research Construction

525 BC (turn 94):​

Construction > Currency
Time to Jumbo.

So here's our situation:

Spoiler :

Resources:



Culture:



Tech:



Diplo:

Priority 1 is to build Elephaaaaants.

Big problem: who is my target?? Two possibilities: TOKU or KUBLAI.

Kublai has the most cities (9) but is backwards tech-wise + an annoying cultural neighbour, so ideal target. Problem is if Toku backstabs it's game... However he is currently at war so no immediate danger.

Toku is also a pretty obvious target because he's such a bloody pain of a neighbour. Problem is the Protective trait...

I think going for Kublai is smarter...

What are your thoughts guys?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I usually try to get Construction before Horseback Riding, so Catapults can be built between when Construction is completed and when Horseback Riding is completed. Once Horseback Riding is completed, 1-2 War Elephants can be whipped in each city.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[pomthom]

I usually try to get Construction before Horseback Riding, so Catapults can be built between when Construction is completed and when Horseback Riding is completed. Once Horseback Riding is completed, 1-2 War Elephants can be whipped in each city.

Sun Tzu Wu

Yeah but here I had to compensate for my slow beginning and use HBR also as bargaining chip