Starting location is as much a factor in difficulty as the difficulty level you play

[vranasm]

well pure civic cost increase according to vic's calculation is around 0.5 gpt, then there is increased city maintenance for increased pop.

seems like he estimates the cost of pop at least 0.5 (with free happiness) and maximum around 1.6 gpt (HR hapiness)

post here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9263835&postcount=8

I used farm because in early game it's most probably the only improvement you can make.

if you use workshop you make 0f 2H tile (don't suppose you will run caste since slavery is more useful) making it a lot worse then plains hill mine (like basically only 1/2 of the hammers)

it's worth only when you start to stack techs (guilds, chemistry) when workshops start to make sense (caste+guilds makes plains workshop plains mine and look what you need for techs! and typical date you acquire them)

plains are least usable tile in game no matter how you want to spin that. They start being decent around T150 (normal speed) in the case of workshops and shine with state property (communism like T230??)

plains cottages are weak tiles (they can't feed themself), but can compensate high food bonus if you already work all better cottages (grass, flood plain)

non-riverside non-financial cottages are then completely other thing to analyze...since they basically lose to not growing into that tile in most situations (too lazy to find that Unconquered_Sun post)

 

[damerell]

I wish you the best of luck working your plains.

See, this is exactly what I'm not looking for. If the numbers don't add up, explain what mistake I'm making. That should surely be pretty straightforward. Please?

 

[damerell]

I used farm because in early game it's most probably the only improvement you can make.

It would have to be very early not to have access to cottages; Pottery is not so very deep in the tech tree.

plains are least usable tile in game no matter how you want to spin that.

And, see, here's the fundamental difficulty. A plains is 1F 1H; a grassland, 2F. Now of course some high-food tiles are nice to provide whippees early, and to support the rest of the city; but beyond that, I guess a food and a hammer are worth about as much as each other. So what's so dreadful about plains? One doesn't work them much because the high-food tiles have to get worked before the low-food ones, of course, but...

Stated plainly, this all seems true to me:

1) With two spare food one can either assign a specialist or work two plains tiles.
2) Specialists are about as good as each other, so without loss of generality we can assume the specialist is an engineer.
3) If we pick the engineer, we get two hammers and 3 GPP. If we pick the plains tiles, we get two hammers and whichever improvements we built on those tiles, minus (as you point out) the cost per citizen for the extra population point.
4) The hammers cancel out, when we compare the two options.
5) If those improvements were cottages, that would eventually result in 8 base commerce for the city.
6) This represents at least 8 (gold|beakers|culture) per turn, but potentially more depending on buildings and civics, perhaps twice as many. By your estimate of the cost of the additional citizen, it's a net 7.
7) Both of these approaches are somewhat jam-tomorrow. The engineer's GPP will at best make a GP some time in the future, and in some cities might never make one; the cottages don't yield their full value until grown, and in the case of the second tile, until the city has grown enough to work it, but on the other hand the two cottages give some immediate returns.
8) It is certainly not immediately obvious to me which of these outcomes is best.

So... which of these stages is wrong? Please don't handwave me away with "everybody knows"; tell me where I'm going wrong.

 

[vranasm]

you seem to mix too many things together.

things like tile improvements and what city works is done by city-by-city basis.

There are some good rules to follow, but no general rule.

plains tile riverside cottages can be worth improving in capital if your capital aims to have tons of cottages. but certainly later then grassland and flood plains (flood plains is biggest priority)

improving plains tile for production and gp farm cities is very weak play.

I don't use free speech in my typical game and have usually only capital cottaged if it has good amount of riverside.

If it doesn't then most probably i don't use cottage cities at all.

 

[noto2]

whoa, whoa...it is not true that it's always better to hire specialists than to work plains tiles. Every game is different. How many GP farms do you already have, are you running a specialist heavy economy, are you planning on going for rep, are you playing a financial leader, etc, etc, these are all factors to consider. Sure, a lot of the time you would use surplus food to whip or to hire specialists, however there are certain situations where making use of the plains tile would be better. The example I gave was a commercial city. If that city has, say, 5-6 plains tiles and a couple high food yield tiles, like fish or pigs, you can cottage those plains. Would the city grow more slowly? Sure but if you're at your pop cap what does that matter? Rather than working grassland cottages and whipping all the time you can just get hammers from working the cottages. Or if you had a commercial city with primarily grassland cottages and some food tiles, you could work 2-3 plains workshops to give that city hammers. Again, it depends on the game. What if you were running a specialist-heavy economy and needed caste system and were playing a non-spiritual leader? Suddenly you have lost access to the whip. Those plains cottages/workshops are now necessary

 

[tdy99]

whoa, whoa...it is not true that it's always better to hire specialists than to work plains tiles. Every game is different. How many GP farms do you already have, are you running a specialist heavy economy, are you planning on going for rep, are you playing a financial leader, etc, etc, these are all factors to consider. Sure, a lot of the time you would use surplus food to whip or to hire specialists, however there are certain situations where making use of the plains tile would be better. The example I gave was a commercial city. If that city has, say, 5-6 plains tiles and a couple high food yield tiles, like fish or pigs, you can cottage those plains. Would the city grow more slowly? Sure but if you're at your pop cap what does that matter? Rather than working grassland cottages and whipping all the time you can just get hammers from working the cottages. Or if you had a commercial city with primarily grassland cottages and some food tiles, you could work 2-3 plains workshops to give that city hammers. Again, it depends on the game. What if you were running a specialist-heavy economy and needed caste system and were playing a non-spiritual leader? Suddenly you have lost access to the whip. Those plains cottages/workshops are now necessary

I find myself using this strategy a lot. If a found a city in a location with a lot of riverside tiles but not much food, I will farm the grassland tiles and cottage the plains tiles. It takes a while to grow but with the right balance you get a strong financial city that way it seems.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

tell me where I'm going wrong.

1. #turns to grow onto additional plains tiles is significant

2. Value of GPP is quite high, so you NEED to be sure city won't be able to make one.

3. Growing onto marginal tiles has a maintenance cost, which further declines the value of growing as opposed to eating food for an output NOW. Do you want your plains tile to pay back after >30 turns?

4. Worker turns. The more marginal tiles you're improving at first, the more you're sinking into something that might not be strictly necessary. This is a real cost, and in practical cases in order to improve junk tiles and still also improve actual good tiles in a timely manner you need extra workers. There goes any "hammer advantage" you might have had, compounded further by the fact that workers stagnate growth and you invest the cost earlier.

5. and caps need to be higher in cities growing onto plains in order to support the citizens working the extra tiles. Potentially this means additional infrastructure to support the pop (a plains tile with puts you behind a specialist, and with it's even worse since you can't work it regardless). If you need to build even ONE extra building in order to support a higher pop to work plains tiles, you push your "time to pay back investment" even further.

Alternatively, you can just run the specialist and get immediate returns + gpp. You better have a very good reason to be growing onto that plains tile early game (plains hills are ok with the +2 yield).

Plains are obviously better than ice/tundra/desert/ocean, so they aren't the "worst tile". They're weak tiles though, and only become truly decent with the scientific method-unlocked options.

 

[Mylene]

Biology seems somewhat overrated here
Plains tiles become useful with State Property, i can count the games where Biology made any difference for winning my game on 1 hand..but SP it's 100s.

Hmm and back to original topic ~~
Maybe true up to Immortal, but good Deity starts are still much much more difficult than bad Immortal ones.

 

[damerell]

1. #turns to grow onto additional plains tiles is significant

2. Value of GPP is quite high, so you NEED to be sure city won't be able to make one.

3. Growing onto marginal tiles has a maintenance cost, which further declines the value of growing as opposed to eating food for an output NOW. Do you want your plains tile to pay back after >30 turns?

These are true (although it's not so much that I need to be sure that a city won't be able to make a GP, as that I need to recognise there is a chance any given GPP will go wasted), but equally GPP take a long time to pay off.

4. Worker turns. The more marginal tiles you're improving at first, the more you're sinking into something that might not be strictly necessary.
5. and caps need to be higher in cities growing onto plains in order to support the citizens working the extra tiles.

No argument per se about the worker turns, but I tend to find if I had enough workers early to improve all the tiles I really wanted, there comes a point after the initial expansion where I'm pressing automate trade network; and a point after that where they're all just sitting around. So there certainly are some free worker turns to be had.

I think I mentioned already that I don't think this analysis is valid if health/happy caps are an issue.

 

[Pangaea]

Depends on the map too. One I played recently had a lot of plains, so cities would grow onto them fairly soon. To me it made more sense to work some of them, for example with riverside plains cottages, than to stagnate growth. Specialists have their use of course, but with a good GP farm you're unlikely to get any GP out of those specialists in 'normal' cities, so you may as well put the extra citizens to work on cottages, watermills (eventually) or workshops.

Besides, it's a very complex game that should open up for all kinds of playstyles. It can be fun to just try to grow cities as a goal in itself, instead of always min-maxing and playing every single aspect of the game as efficiently as possible.

 

[vranasm]

i think people sometimes undervalue running pure scientists without the intent of bulbing techs from the city even without rep.

I had games where I run 2 scientists/city in like 10 cities to get to currency.

once you hit currency/alphabet you can directly convert hills to bpt/gpt and then normal scientists start to be a bit worse then plains hill if not running GPP's

nonfinancial cottages have a lot to catch up. they a) produce commerce b) they need to grow.

if you compare nonriverside plains cottage you get 1h 1C for 10 turns, then 1h 2C for 15, then 1H 3C for another 35

compared to running grassland hill for 3H --> gpt/bpt the cottage loses directly for first 25 turns
(and we have yet to figure out how the H~C correlation works since building wealth in production centers can move slider up so your true commerce cities shine)

and then starts to be marginally better, eventually beating that hill.

but seriously 25 turns being worse then hill, then for another 35 ~similar is a lot to ask.

in this regard riverside is a bit better.

 

[Pangaea]

Running scientists in cities with a Library makes more sense of course, as you get a bonus even if you never pop a great person from the city. In my case, however, it was a production city that didn't have a library. So after the engineer for the forge, it made more sense to me to work farmed plains instead of a specialist.

Like everything else it depends on the situation, but I think people in general are quite "Don't do that!!" about working plains tiles. The big disadvantage is the lack of food, which is a big factor, but apart from that a plains tile gives 2 yield, just as a grassland tile.

 

[plasmacannon]

damerall, I think you are mising the point to the value of a GP.
The cottaged plains tile till yield a small amount of gold during the time it takes to get the GP.
If that GP is an Great Engineer, then you could build the Great Library instantly.
If the GP is a Great Scientist, you can bulb a tech for less gold than you would earn with the cottages.
If the GP is a Great Merchant and conducts a trade route, you will earn something like 3500 gold. Far far more than those two cottages will earn you.

If you already have several GPP farms, then you might not need this. Since, you were talking about early in the game, it should still be an option. Usually workshops are better on plains tiles when they start to yield more that 2 pp, especially 4-5pp or are riverside.
In nono2's example of 3 great food tiles, I'd prefer to run 4 specialists over 8 plains tiles anyday.

There was a post a few months ago where someone showed us a city with an insane amount of Great Merchants in it. I think it had like 100 pop in it with over 30 GMs in it. Anyway, you can imagine the gold output and the GM provides 1 food too, just like the plains. So, the strategy you are going for makes a difference too.

 

[damerell]

damerall, I think you are mising the point to the value of a GP.

No, I don't; what I'm dubious about is the degree to which 3 GPP actually translates into GP.

Since, you were talking about early in the game, it should still be an option.

Really, I wasn't - that seems to have been an idea that's come out of nowhere.

 

[noto2]

^^ exactly... who says we're talking about GP being created? A GP farm is a completely different story. In a commercial or production city, at any point past the early game, specialists will not translate into GP. I'd even say plains tiles can be useful in a GP farm. Let's say you have a city with tons of food and a few plains tiles. You could workshop those plains so your GP farm can build some infrastructure, especially if you're not using the slavery civic. You work the workshops, build some infrastructure (like a forge to hire an engineer and an aquaduct to grow), and then you switch to specialists.

 

[plasmacannon]

Really, I wasn't - that seems to have been an idea that's come out of nowhere.

Because you were comparing it to GP, which is already known to not be effective later in the game.
When, it takes 2 Great people to bulb one tech, going for more Great people becomes drastically less efficient. So, of course don't go for them.
If you are talking about newly conquered cities, then, usually workshops are already generating 5 pp per tile and can quickly make a newly conquered city viable, where your hamlet example will still only provide 2 prod for the same amount of negative food. You still have to work them up to make the useful.
If you are talking about already existing cottages from newly conquered cities, then, yes, I'd leave them that way too.
A lot depends on how much longer your game will be lasting.
I play on medium maps at epic speed with tech brokering, huts and random events off, and usually finish them before ever seeing a nuke.
If you are playing huge maps at normal speed with tech brokering, huts and random events on, you will have AIs lasting longer with higher techs and will spend more time in the modern era and could see some returns on new cottages on captured cities using your method.
As the game parameters were not mentioned, it is difficult to be pricise.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

whoa, whoa...it is not true that it's always better to hire specialists than to work plains tiles. Every game is different. <snip>

I find myself using this strategy a lot. If a found a city in a location with a lot of riverside tiles but not much food, I will farm the grassland tiles and cottage the plains tiles. It takes a while to grow but with the right balance you get a strong financial city that way it seems.

See I find these 'obsolete' strategies intriguing; there is another layer to game play that lies outside of assumptions and forum hivemind. I'm happy when these ideas see the light of day.

I can't help but think that e-peen is blowing this whole thing out of proportion, though.

 

[King Kalmah]

This whole thread was about starting location not GP's...(and yes if you get a crappy start you can make Toku look good)

Granted a starting location can make or break a GP farm,but granted I think we should be talking about difficulty,because no matter what level of difficulty you play you can still gain a GP without an increase in cost...(ie is always the same value,unless the speed is different)

Its not like a GP on Settler costs less then a GP on Deity...

 

[Seraiel]

Regarding the plains-issue, just wanted to say that I'm just playing a game where I didn't work a single plains-tile the whole game, no city reached a size larger than 10 , and I think it's gonna beat the best non-Incan conquest Victory on Huge (by Moonsinger) by a good of 500y .

Plains suck, whip rulez.

 

[Matty R]

I got sick of the bad starts on Temperate maps and switched to Tropical.
Yes, there is a lot of jungle, but there is less desert and plains, plus the jungle can be chopped down for more grassland tiles.

Me too. Makes for much better games, and vast regions of jungle act as early barriers between civs.