staznesX: All Under Heaven

[germanicus12]

To Sweden
From Great Britain

My dear Sweden, so much do you have to learn about religion and the world. Just be happy that you are following the true religion and leave those who do not out of it. At least they follow something similar.

Sweden can declare war on the world as it wishes, but they will do so without the support of England. We will continue to keep diplomatic relations with you so you realize you still have a friend, but be warned, if you continue down this course, you will find yourself without friends. So again, just sober up, put the Vodka on a ship and sink it, then resume focusing on your internal problems than someone elses religous beliefs.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

To Sweden
From Great Britain

My dear Sweden, so much do you have to learn about religion and the world. Just be happy that you are following the true religion and leave those who do not out of it. At least they follow something similar.

Sweden can declare war on the world as it wishes, but they will do so without the support of England. We will continue to keep diplomatic relations with you so you realize you still have a friend, but be warned, if you continue down this course, you will find yourself without friends. So again, just sober up, put the Vodka on a ship and sink it, then resume focusing on your internal problems than someone elses religous beliefs.

From Erik XV
To Great Britan

It is morally wrong to lie, so I will not pretend I have the full support of the Riksdag. But Scripture says "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation". That news is not lies, but truth.

Heretics in other lands are denied the truth by the kings that rule over and opress them, pressed under the tyranny of the Pope. Only God is holy, yet they call the Pope holy.

I will not pretend I can defeat them all- thou shalt not lie, including to oneself. But to the extent I am actually capable, I have a duty to destroy them.

 

[germanicus12]

To Sweden
From Great Britian

Very well. It appears your decision is made, if I may ask, where will you be buried, so that I may acquire reservations to the funeral of such an ardent follower of our faith.

But perhaps you should consider spreading the faith through other means? War is not the only option, our bloody civil wars have taught us that and we support freedom of religion. Just remember that when you die, you will be greeted by Jesus and God with open arms, while those 'herectics' as you put them, will be met with Lucifer and guided to a more unfriendly place. But perhaps that is the reason you openly want war, so you can enter paradise as a bloodstained defender of the faith.

England does not desire a Holy War, especially one right in Europe. Also furthermore, I doubt the Pope calls himself a Holy Person, but more as a Prophet of God. No mortal man can call himself Holy, we know this, and so do the Catholics, if they are blind, leave them alone, it is not morally correct to beat up a blind man when you should have talked to him first and attempt to explain what he should be seeing.

But please, before you get all tough and macho, remember this much, France is one of the worlds leading superpowers, up there with England and Russia. France is Catholic, so is Spain, Italy, and many other minor but important states that could threaten your flanks, not by huge and vast armies, but by harrassing you with small lightning raid strikes at your border towns.

France and Spain together can best even the mighty British fleet at sea if met in open battle, think of what they could do to you. Your people will suffer blockades, your crops will fail and your supply lines will be severed. Sweden cannot survive this war even with the help of our Divine Lord. If you continue in this stance, our ambassador will leave in fear of his life and you lose a good ally.

Please for the sake of your people and friendship, take your mind away from war and pursue more peaceful ways of spreading the message.

 

[Yui108]

From : The Pope
To: The vaguely annoying Kingdom of Sweden

Matt.16:18-19: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The Church has long since given up it's quest to bring back all Christians to the True Church, and we have endevoured to leave the remaining protestants be. Yet when a nation begins to spit insults upon the face of His church, I must respond. Might not a saint be holy? Might not a good protestant minister be holy? Might not the leader of His faith in the world be holy? Your rantings are abominable.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

OOC: Do we get story bonuses for this?

From : The Pope
To: The vaguely annoying Kingdom of Sweden

Matt.16:18-19: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The Church has long since given up it's quest to bring back all Christians to the True Church, and we have endevoured to leave the remaining protestants be. Yet when a nation begins to spit insults upon the face of His church, I must respond. Might not a saint be holy? Might not a good protestant minister be holy? Might not the leader of His faith in the world be holy? Your rantings are abominable.

I refer you first to Revelations 15:4, and second to the fact that if we are heretics, then to give up on us is sinful- for that would be to deny the clear will of God himself.

No heretic can be given authority by God. Therefore you, at least, are not a legitimate head of the Church.

To Sweden
From Great Britian

Very well. It appears your decision is made, if I may ask, where will you be buried, so that I may acquire reservations to the funeral of such an ardent follower of our faith.

But perhaps you should consider spreading the faith through other means? War is not the only option, our bloody civil wars have taught us that and we support freedom of religion. Just remember that when you die, you will be greeted by Jesus and God with open arms, while those 'herectics' as you put them, will be met with Lucifer and guided to a more unfriendly place. But perhaps that is the reason you openly want war, so you can enter paradise as a bloodstained defender of the faith.

England does not desire a Holy War, especially one right in Europe. Also furthermore, I doubt the Pope calls himself a Holy Person, but more as a Prophet of God. No mortal man can call himself Holy, we know this, and so do the Catholics, if they are blind, leave them alone, it is not morally correct to beat up a blind man when you should have talked to him first and attempt to explain what he should be seeing.

But please, before you get all tough and macho, remember this much, France is one of the worlds leading superpowers, up there with England and Russia. France is Catholic, so is Spain, Italy, and many other minor but important states that could threaten your flanks, not by huge and vast armies, but by harrassing you with small lightning raid strikes at your border towns.

France and Spain together can best even the mighty British fleet at sea if met in open battle, think of what they could do to you. Your people will suffer blockades, your crops will fail and your supply lines will be severed. Sweden cannot survive this war even with the help of our Divine Lord. If you continue in this stance, our ambassador will leave in fear of his life and you lose a good ally.

Please for the sake of your people and friendship, take your mind away from war and pursue more peaceful ways of spreading the message.

That is why we have not gone to war with France- though Spain, had the Riksdag not forced my hand, could have defeated by my navy (or yours, for that matter) should France not intervene.

In this age, neither Catholic nor Protestant, as we are called, practices religious tolerance. Therefore the only means of allowing preachers to spread the message in peace is through war. We have a duty to save as many, heretics and pagans, as we can.

 

[BananaLee]

I don't know which is scarier, the very familiar rhetoric or the fact you guys are picking out choice statements from the Bible.

 

[Dachs]

I refer you first to Revelations 15:4,

Since LittleBoots ain't gonna do it, I will: I've never heard of the "Book of Revelations". There's an astonishingly similarly named book that comes at the end of the New Testament, but nothing called "Revelations".

That is why we have not gone to war with France- though Spain, had the Riksdag not forced my hand, could have defeated by my navy (or yours, for that matter) should France not intervene.

1. France's closest ally is Spain.
2. You have to pass France to get to Spain from Sweden.

I don't know which is scarier, the very familiar rhetoric or the fact you guys are picking out choice statements from the Bible.

Huh...verrrry familiar. Could we not do this every update? I mean, seriously, (OOC) either somebody needs to invade Sweden and force them to change their weirdo foreign policy, or just ignore him and kill him with embargoes 'cause he won't conduct foreign relations with countries that aren't Protestant. Despite the fact that Sweden has no historical Protestant allies in the aftermath of the Eleven Years' War, merely a brief alliance of convenience during the Dutch War that didn't actually pan out.

 

[germanicus12]

OOC: We have religous tolerance in England. Did Wiki lie again?

To Sweden
From Great Britain

Together.... together France and Spain can best me at sea, not seperate, Spain I can brush aside, France will be problamatic but can be pushed forcifully aside. But we are close to France, we are Protestant, they are Catholic.... *goes silent for a moment* .... hmmm, God did not strike me down, therefore he must allow it, maybe it is becuase he realizes that it takes awhile to actually spread a religion by peace. Please spare me the 'war is the only option' tactic, it will not work here. If they refuse to allow a Protestant merchant to dock at their ports, then that is their problem, not yours. You do not need preachers or religious peoples to spread the belief, as my example above illustrated, a simple Merchant can achieve the same effect. If you like, you can use your ambassador, or even send citizens down to live in France. France is not going to set soldiers at every border crossing keeping an eye out for Protestants and killing them on sight if they cross the border.

So to summerize, war is not the only option you have. I have my Catholic 'herectic' priest and a Protestant Priest here and both say, "Nowhere does it say in the word of the Lord, 'Go forth and attack the herectics and Pagans using weapons and war.'" But I bring up another interesting point, again quoted from my priests, "God did say, 'Take up arms in the defense of your faith.'" Yes, take up arms in the defense of your faith. (OOC: I myself am not very religious, but I believe that my above phrase, Take up arms...., is close enough to what the actual phrase is. Apologies if I was completely wrong.)

So if I read your messages correctly, you wish to go against God by attacking herectics and pagans who never even lifted a finger against you in the last few years. Very noble plan, and for sure you will be ushered to the front of the line and welcomed into heaven immediatly. I advise you reread the bible, both bibles and reconsider your position.

 

[Abaddon]

I vote for a worldwide squash!

 

[Yui108]

The Pope never claimed Protestantinism is heretical. just for the record.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Since LittleBoots ain't gonna do it, I will: I've never heard of the "Book of Revelations". There's an astonishingly similarly named book that comes at the end of the New Testament, but nothing called "Revelations".

1. France's closest ally is Spain.
2. You have to pass France to get to Spain from Sweden.

Huh...verrrry familiar. Could we not do this every update? I mean, seriously, (OOC) either somebody needs to invade Sweden and force them to change their weirdo foreign policy, or just ignore him and kill him with embargoes 'cause he won't conduct foreign relations with countries that aren't Protestant. Despite the fact that Sweden has no historical Protestant allies in the aftermath of the Eleven Years' War, merely a brief alliance of convenience during the Dutch War that didn't actually pan out.

1- My mistake.
2- Didn't think things through
3- Erik XV has a guilty conscience about traditional Swedish policy, and is trying to change it. This is a plausible development.

The most in-character thing for other states to do would be to try and take advantage of Swedish foriegn policy for their own ends.

The Pope never claimed Protestantinism is heretical. just for the record.

OOC: Historically, he did- Decet Romanum Pontificem was the bull in which he excommunicated Martin Luther.

OOC: We have religous tolerance in England. Did Wiki lie again?

To Sweden
From Great Britain

Together.... together France and Spain can best me at sea, not seperate, Spain I can brush aside, France will be problamatic but can be pushed forcifully aside. But we are close to France, we are Protestant, they are Catholic.... *goes silent for a moment* .... hmmm, God did not strike me down, therefore he must allow it, maybe it is becuase he realizes that it takes awhile to actually spread a religion by peace. Please spare me the 'war is the only option' tactic, it will not work here. If they refuse to allow a Protestant merchant to dock at their ports, then that is their problem, not yours. You do not need preachers or religious peoples to spread the belief, as my example above illustrated, a simple Merchant can achieve the same effect. If you like, you can use your ambassador, or even send citizens down to live in France. France is not going to set soldiers at every border crossing keeping an eye out for Protestants and killing them on sight if they cross the border.

So to summerize, war is not the only option you have. I have my Catholic 'herectic' priest and a Protestant Priest here and both say, "Nowhere does it say in the word of the Lord, 'Go forth and attack the herectics and Pagans using weapons and war.'" But I bring up another interesting point, again quoted from my priests, "God did say, 'Take up arms in the defense of your faith.'" Yes, take up arms in the defense of your faith. (OOC: I myself am not very religious, but I believe that my above phrase, Take up arms...., is close enough to what the actual phrase is. Apologies if I was completely wrong.)

So if I read your messages correctly, you wish to go against God by attacking herectics and pagans who never even lifted a finger against you in the last few years. Very noble plan, and for sure you will be ushered to the front of the line and welcomed into heaven immediatly. I advise you reread the bible, both bibles and reconsider your position.

OOC: England did not tolerate Catholic worship in Churches until significantly later

1829 April 13 - British Parliament granted Catholic Emancipation (source: Wikipedia)

I believe, though I don't have a source for this, that Protestants were not tolerated until the time of Oliver Cromwell.

Finally, Erik XV as I play him actually is a hypocrite for tolerating Anglicans, though not as bad as typical for the time.

IC:
A single priest's word is not definitive- I have priests who approve of my actions- as, little doubt, does every king- right or wrong.

The Catholics do not have religious tolerance, and we would accuse them of hypocrisy if they did so. For they would be ignoring the words of Augustine, who believer and heretic alike admit as a Church Father. Coercion, while not as good as voluntary conversion, is an acceptable means of spreading the faith.

That is why war is necessary- for all amongst self-proclaimed Christians except for hypocrites (and we accuse all who do tolerate Catholicism or Protestantism while professing the other of such) refuse to tolerate what they see as heresy.

And, while we do not wish to alienate a friend, such is the state of England. For do you not acknowledge Augustine as a Church Father? If you do, you should accept his advice.

 

[germanicus12]

To Sweden
From Great Britain

Very well, it now appears obvious that you will not change your stance. We will bid you farewell and wish you luck. We are calling our ambassador home, it will not be safe for him in a potential battlefield. We hope you will understand. We will however, continue to accept any mail from you, should you send them to us though.

 

[Abaddon]

This is is fricking ALT-HIST, you can't keep quoting wiki as if it matters . .. .. .. . here.. :shakehead:

 

[Neverwonagame3]

We can if it's from before the Point of Divergence (1626).

 

[Abaddon]

Meh, whatever, your coming across as an ass in most threads anyway. I guess you will learn how this place works aventually. Those that stand out tend to soon fall back in line or go away.. *fingers-crossed*

 

[Neverwonagame3]

To Sweden
From Great Britain

Very well, it now appears obvious that you will not change your stance. We will bid you farewell and wish you luck. We are calling our ambassador home, it will not be safe for him in a potential battlefield. We hope you will understand. We will however, continue to accept any mail from you, should you send them to us though.

OOC: The most realistic thing for other states to do would be to try and take advantage of Swedish foriegn policy, not change it.

From Sweden
To Great Britain

This is an age where people seek power. Only Denmark and Russia have any incentive to attack us. The Riksdag and the King are at peace, and therefore Sweden is not going to become a battlefield.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Hey Sweden: Consider carefully the following maxim as laid down by centuries of european warfare - cuius regio, eius religio, and then shut the heck up before the Riksdag runs you out of town in exchange for a non-mental king for their constituional monarchy.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Hey Sweden: Consider carefully the following maxim as laid down by centuries of european warfare - cuius regio, eius religio, and then shut the heck up before the Riksdag runs you out of town in exchange for a non-mental king for their constituional monarchy.

This is supposed to be a story NES, as said in the introduction (otherwise I would have taken Hungary and played this normally). A character who rejects that maxim is not implausible- people who take their religions seriously do exist. Unless religious fervor is madness, he is not mad.

It is completly unrealistic for the Riksdag to reject such a policy- they would have no arguement that would suceed while still professing Protestantism.

I am not stupid enough to believe that what in an NES is traditionally called Sweden's interests will be furthered by my policy, but that is not my goal.

 

[alex994]

OOC: England did not tolerate Catholic worship in Churches until significantly later

1829 April 13 - British Parliament granted Catholic Emancipation (source: Wikipedia)

I believe, though I don't have a source for this, that Protestants were not tolerated until the time of Oliver Cromwell.

OOC: First of all, Elizabeth I was a Protestant by the Church of England. Anglicans are Protestants. Puritans as well as dissenters are Protestants too, though they were normally given short thrift by the Established Monarchy of England until after James II was deposed. In fact, James I, Charles I, Oliver Cromwell, AND Charles II were all Protestants (Charles II in name at least despite what sympathies he might have had).

Secondly, have you READ THE ALT-HISTORY AT ALL?!?! The House of Hanover did not inherit England in this alt-hist. James Francis Edward Stuart did. Remind me why his dear old dad lost the English throne? It was because his dear old dad was a Catholic! Yes, James Francis Edward Stuart converted to the Church of England so that he could get the throne (much like Henri II of France) but undoubtedly wanted to remove more restrictions on the Catholics (was prevented from by Parliament) but surely his sons would continue his humble legacy when they gained more and more power?

 

[~Darkening~]

This placed Portugal on par with the Kongo, North Africa, and British East Africa in other Vei-Reidoms,

Can someone tell me what exactly is wrong with this sentence ?

(Yes, I just did notice the mistake.)