Students and Professors of UC Irvine want to ban the US Flag
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Crackerbox
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Some claim flag symbology to educate, while accusing others of using the exact same flag symbology to inspire hate.
Others have no symbols of the German Reich in WW2, and then get accused of promoting it without a shred of evidence.
The immense irony is delightful.
Others have no symbols of the German Reich in WW2, and then get accused of promoting it without a shred of evidence.
The immense irony is delightful.
Borachio
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I'm not using a flag for any purpose. I don't have any about my person or any in my house. You know, I don't think I've even touched a flag. I could be wrong. But I can't remember ever doing so. Not even those little ones on sticks.
Ah, I remember now. I used to have some Airfix toy soldiers as a boy. Some of those carried flags. Some of them were even Confederate soldiers!
Ah, I remember now. I used to have some Airfix toy soldiers as a boy. Some of those carried flags. Some of them were even Confederate soldiers!
Crackerbox
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Nope, and I don't possess a Nazi flag, nor espouse some skinhead wannabee hatemonger ideology against todays Jews or Israel. But we've seen it in this topic, and not by me, and yet then I get accused of being a Nazi.
Trial by innuendo.
It's the same sort of acusation against anyone in American history who did anything to the American flag IF they weren't repeating the same political mantra of the most vocal.
Flag burning is nuts and impotent and useless, but protected under the First Amendment. But does that mean a student council can ban it for everyone else? I doubt it and it's flat out unethical.
If I decide to wear a cross around my neck, or carry a rosary, can that be banned? Can a student council ban people from wearing them? If one is a part of a painting in an campus art gallery, then should it be eliminated?
Crackerbox
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No I refuse to follow your archaic tactics from some anonymous part of the Internet.
caketastydelish
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Irrelevant. Banning the US flag is absurd. It's not even like they were wearing the confedorate flag or something.
caketastydelish
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BTW, the Union Jack isn't racist either.
jackelgull
An aberration of nature
Racists believe it is. Does that matter?
Crackerbox
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It's asinine to ban American flags on clothing because some idiots who happened to wear them were racists and caused incidents. It's rather like banning rosaries because some gangbangers carry them while millions of Roman Catholics also carry them. It's no different than some idiot bigot who waves the Confederate flag while most simply have Southern Pride, or even being Kanye West and putting the Confederate flag on his clothing line.
Since the motivations to use a flag are diverse, then you cannot then say, that flag means "that" negative thing. It doesn't mean one single thing.
Since the motivations to use a flag are diverse, then you cannot then say, that flag means "that" negative thing. It doesn't mean one single thing.
I think there's a couple outside of John Clancy. Though I'd thought the rainbow thing was just wrapping it around trees.
You seem to be describing how it's strange, not justifying it.
Leaving aside whether the flag worship is right or wrong, it certainly is perplexing to outsiders. I don't think there are too many other countries which treat their flag like Americans do (maybe France?). It's hard to express just how strange or alien it is to see an American's passion for their flag. There's probably a mixture of cultural misunderstanding and Stockholm Syndrome at play. On the one hand, if Americans are bombarded by the flag so much and from such a young age, the symbolism of it really will be more powerful. On the other hand, it's just a flag. I suppose if someone were to immigrate to the US having not been brought up with that same attitude towards the flag, they might be a bit confronted by its pervasiveness. If the aim is to be culturally sensitive, do you force your understanding of the flag upon them, or try toning it down a little?
I recently went to the National Museum of American History in DC, where they have an exhibit about the flag, featuring the original flag. The atmosphere was a little bizarre - comparable to something like Lenin's Mausoleum, where people seemed not to be there for historical curiosity's sake, but because it's a shrine of sorts. I would definitely describe the attitude towards the flag as religious - the flag is sacred, and negative treatment of it isn't merely wrong, but blasphemous.
Crackerbox
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Yep, see the Cato Institute link about the Pledge of Alleigance to the Flag. There's support from Christians who see it violates New Testament principles, as well as very conservative people from the Tea Party...and these are all patriotic people. That's the gamut of the Left and the Right that see flag worship as just a State Religion.
Goodfella
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it actually a ban? Iirc, school officials (Morgan Hill high school) just sent home a few students who, on that particular day, were using the flag to bully mexican classmates. Showing up to school on cinco de mayo draped in flag gear is obviously an incendiary and disruptive attempt to piss people off. The subsequent lawsuit was in response to that particular incident, not a school-wide ban.
Crackerbox
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http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Judges-School-ban-on-U-S-flag-shirts-bends-to-5762199.php
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2006/apr/05/ousd-flag-ban-spurs-debate-over-student-free/
That link has more legal information about the case. There are similar cases all across the USA. One of the issues is no high school dress code can be entirely exacting in its wording. As such, many types of t-shirts have been banned even though with patriotic symbols, innocent messages, ones with religious imagery, ones that might discuss a political message, etc.
There have been colleges that told students to not come back to school with their rosaries, to cover up neck crosses, students in college admission interviews who were heavily criticized about their Christian beliefs and told to go elsewhere, etc.
It's an oppressive means of putting down symbols simply because of lumping them into a dress code, or political correctness, or the craziest linkage to establishment of religion, etc.
caketastydelish
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I'm half irish half iranian. If people wanted to fly the american flag on either st. patricks day or nowruz I couldn't care less. If these mexicans are "offended" by an American flag, even on Cinco de Mayo, time to grow up.
jackelgull
An aberration of nature
Interestingly enough Cinco de Maya is really an American victory more than it is a Mexican one. It is the date the French retreated from their imperialistic ambitions in Mexico during the Civil War, which prevented the US from having a hostile power so close to its borders. So those students really have a lot of justification to wave the US flag on that day. The Mexicans probably helped save it.
Doesn't really matter, but interesting to me.
Doesn't really matter, but interesting to me.
Crackerbox
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The ACLU is interested in the high school case. They've clearly stated it would interfere with freedom of expression so why in the world would a school district be so stupid as to waste needless legal funds on something that will surely fail and result in no win at all for the school?
Goodfella
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http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf
There was no blanket ban on the American flag at Morgan Hill. But the media and everyone else has been wrongfully describing the situation as if there were.
Maybe. But the situation at Morgan Hill was more complicated than callous white kids offending overly sensitive Mexican students. The students in question were wearing the flags to deliberately provoke their mexican peers, many of whom would have been more than happy to answer with violence. Public schools need to somehow balance free expression with order. When students are using the american flag to deliberately create disorder, schools are justified in sending those students home.
There was no blanket ban on the American flag at Morgan Hill. But the media and everyone else has been wrongfully describing the situation as if there were.
Maybe. But the situation at Morgan Hill was more complicated than callous white kids offending overly sensitive Mexican students. The students in question were wearing the flags to deliberately provoke their mexican peers, many of whom would have been more than happy to answer with violence. Public schools need to somehow balance free expression with order. When students are using the american flag to deliberately create disorder, schools are justified in sending those students home.
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