Suggestion : Vasalage VS Capitulation

[maxbjr]

Usually i don't take vassals unless I have a need to, (like I'm at war or about to be at war with someone else.) Of course if I have them down to 3 or less cities, I just take them out no matter what they offer. The diplomatic hit and the extra money I have to spend having a vassal just isn't worth it. If I'm going to spend money on cities upkeep, I'd rather it be my own cities rather then some vassals cities.

 

[Pitboss]

• They keep controlling the resources on their lands
• Give you some bad diplomatic points
• Cost you more then your own cities on upkeep
• They don't share their techs with their masters

Firaxis sure could make having or keeping capitulating nations, and vasals more interesting.

 

[kcbrett5]

• They keep controlling the resources on their lands
• Give you some bad diplomatic points
• Cost you more then your own cities on upkeep
• They don't share their techs with their masters

Firaxis sure could make having or keeping capitulating nations, and vasals more interesting.

Yes but you can trade them all of your resources and you will earn far more in return than they are costing. The AI will keep offering gold for resources until their science is down to 0%. You just need to have the resources to offer. I have had vassals that capitulated hating my guts but still sending me over 100 gold per turn for my spare resources.

 

[Pitboss]

Perhaps, but money isn't everything ... especialy in civ.

 

[Minmaster]

capitulation under few cities should just make those cities yours for good.

 

[Khavikanum]

You can
Just open a diplomacy screen with you vasal & give them those cities by selecting them from your list of cities.

I've actually tried to do this several times, and it hasn't been an option. My screen will not allow me to give cities to my vassals. It's rather frustrating, too, when I go to war and want to give them cities because of the haphazard conquering pattern that results from vassals taking cities after you wear them down in the middle of cultural chaos.

Am I missing something?
-Joe

 

[Pitboss]

I've actually tried to do this several times, and it hasn't been an option. My screen will not allow me to give cities to my vassals. It's rather frustrating, too, when I go to war and want to give them cities because of the haphazard conquering pattern that results from vassals taking cities after you wear them down in the middle of cultural chaos.

Am I missing something?
-Joe

Erhm, no it's actualy my mistake ...
I've tried it recently, and it just wasn't possible.
Weird ... I was prety sure you could

 

[cabert]

if your vassal is attacked, and loses one of his cities, you can choose to give it back to him when you capture it.
Other than this, i don't know.

 

[alexman]

They keep controlling the resources on their lands

Since you can demand them, you are actually the one controlling them

Give you some bad diplomatic points

OK, we will adjust it so you get less of a diplomatic hit (or none) when your vassal is weak.

Cost you more then your own cities on upkeep

Actually, vassal cities never cost more in upkeep than if they were your own

 

[pholkhero]

if you see this Alexman ~ perhaps a notification or the ability to stop a war w/a country if they become a vassal to someone else

 

[Pitboss]

Since you can demand them, you are actually the one controlling them

Yes, and they can smile back with their "your still are our worst ennemy" face, and refuse. I do wonder they still have as many possibilities as before they capitulated. It might be interesting to restrict their diplomatic, economical and religious options. Kinda like when there is a vote, they support you all the way.

And it might get rid of some strange situations, like this one
Why would they both ask me to stop dealing with each other ? Haven't they been united trough war ?

OK, we will adjust it so you get less of a diplomatic hit (or none) when your vassal is weak.

Rather none at all, ... because that nations status has changed. It has become an autonome part of your civ.
-1 for taking our worst enemies into your empire instead of -1 You've taking our worst enemy as vasal.

Actually, vassal cities never cost more in upkeep than if they were your own

Yes, but paying for cities that won't give you any units, extra research labs, or something alike feels like you're paying more, because you're getting less from them then if it were your own cities.

 

[alexman]

Yes, and they can smile back with their "your still are worst ennemy" face, and refuse.

No they can't, as long as you demand only one resource per turn, not bundled with other demands.

 

[Pitboss]

Ah, didn't know that one. I'll use it wisely

btw do you know if firaxis might consider altering the vassalage system in any upcoming patches
(obviously not in the one that will come out in a month or so) ?
Or will it rather be something for civ4 : the 2nd expansion pack or civ5.

Except from these :

By the way, vassal state bugs will be fixed, but do not expect major implementation changes like being able to drop your vassal state.
That's working as designed, and changing it would cause other, more serious, balance issues.

No, but now the new master will only accept the vassal if he also wants to declare war on you.

And thanks for dropping a line and some answers here

Hey guys, any suggestions for the patch should probably go here
Alexman was kind enough to drop in and give some details of what's actually happening, so lets return the favour and keep all the suggestions in one place.

I've added them, so that they might be remembered for the next patch/civ opertunity, to be picked up.

 

[Pitboss]

Noticing the number of threads on the subject, I believe it to be a hot item on the todo list.

Capitulation
Conquest victory with vassals
how to (ab-)use vassals
Peaceful vasallage
peaceful vassal? why bother
Undisciplined Vassals
Vassal Breakup Question
Vassal decision making, or, why are they so dumb?
Vassal question
Vassal States - Tell me about them?
what happens if your vassel win a space race

 

[Pitboss]

Perhaps it might be a good idea to modify the diplomacy screen as well.
Giving you several (4-5) counsul members of that civ to talk and negotiate with, for such matters as a capitulation, un votes, and so on ..

(I've got the idea by watching this image on the homepage.)