Sweden

[Txurce]

I feel that sweden could use a small non-combat strength bonus gain from the UA, since most domination oriented civs have one (japan, assyria, france ...ect), i was thinking of a small science per kill that could give them some edge in the early game (they are late bloomers in my opinion).

By coincidence, Sweden just beat me in a gigantic runaway, conquering five capitals and on the verge of a CV, but launched a spaceship on t362 instead.

 

[CrazyG]

Sweden has 0 non military benefits before the very late Skola, and I would say its a huge weakness. Even Zulu or Huns get something

 

[Txurce]

Sweden has 0 non military benefits before the very late Skola, and I would say its a huge weakness. Even Zulu or Huns get something

A huge weakness meaning they're a consistently underperforming civ? Or an imbalance that you would correct by nerfing part of their military strength?

 

[CrazyG]

A huge weakness meaning they're a consistently underperforming civ? Or an imbalance that you would correct by nerfing part of their military strength?

I'd say that Sweden is in the bottom 5 civs for me. Warmonger with lack of early game boosts is a tough archetype to play, though I acknowledge the AI does ok with them.

In my opinion if you are going to be this one dimensional, you need extremely good at that one dimension, and i don't think Sweden is. He has a really hard time dealing with UUs early on and he can't wait for his own UU to start fighting

 

[Txurce]

I'd say that Sweden is in the bottom 5 civs for me. Warmonger with lack of early game boosts is a tough archetype to play, though I acknowledge the AI does ok with them.

In my opinion if you are going to be this one dimensional, you need extremely good at that one dimension, and i don't think Sweden is. He has a really hard time dealing with UUs early on and he can't wait for his own UU to start fighting

It is hard for me to imagine 20 other civs doing what Sweden just did in my game. They beat Japan, Venice and Spain early, Byzantium throughout, and France and Arabia (who had peacefully divided the other continent) late. And this was with most of the world teaming up against them, repeatedly. (After the early game, Sweden didn't DoW once.)

I agree that Sweden is one-dimensional, and not as good as the Mongols, say. They average out in the middle to lower-middle in most of my games. But not so low that they need help (unless half the other civs also need help, but we've accepted inevitable relative imbalance).

 

[CrazyG]

I agree that Sweden is one-dimensional, and not as good as the Mongols, say.

This hits the nail on the head. Other civs do war better, AND have some economic benefits too.

The Skola is actually pretty good its just really out of place on a warmonger

 

[Gazebo]

The Swedes are a top-tier AI Civ. The skola is late but their UA lasts all game.

G

 

[Gokudo01]

This hits the nail on the head. Other civs do war better, AND have some economic benefits too.

The Skola is actually pretty good its just really out of place on a warmonger

I have to disagree with you, sweden is really good to win a semi warmonger into science victory. authority -> piety or statecraft ( if you are able to befriend many cs ) -> rationalism -> order/freedom .
the skola, indeed, comes late but it's cheaper and gives nice bonus.
The UA is so great by himself, you don't need any bonus other bonus as warmonger.

I would say Sweden is one of the strongest civ in cbp right now. if I unlock horsemen too fast(nice science start or lots of barbarian) , I know I won the game

 

[CrazyG]

I have to disagree with you, sweden is really good to win a semi warmonger into science victory. authority -> piety or statecraft ( if you are able to befriend many cs ) -> rationalism -> order/freedom .
the skola, indeed, comes late but it's cheaper and gives nice bonus.
The UA is so great by himself, you don't need any bonus other bonus as warmonger.

I would say Sweden is one of the strongest civ in cbp right now. if I unlock horsemen too fast(nice science start or lots of barbarian) , I know I won the game

What part of the UA is great? 15% when attacking? Any UU is a much bigger bonus than that. A lot of civs can do fast horsemen and I really don't think the 15% when attacking is worth more than benefits of civs like Shoshone or Songhai

 

[Jarula]

what makes Sweden great is the Skola.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think Sweden is absolutely great. Great UA, great (but late) UU, great (but late) UB.

What part of the UA is great? 15% when attacking? Any UU is a much bigger bonus than that. A lot of civs can do fast horsemen and I really don't think the 15% when attacking is worth more than benefits of civs like Shoshone or Songhai

+15% when attacking, +10% from Great General and faster kittenpults.

 

[ElliotS]

Yeah Sweden has really good bonuses. 10% better GGs, 15% when attacking and paults that can move and attack in enemy territory sounds really good. His other stuff comes late, but they're both REALLY good.

 

[Gokudo01]

What part of the UA is great? 15% when attacking? Any UU is a much bigger bonus than that. A lot of civs can do fast horsemen and I really don't think the 15% when attacking is worth more than benefits of civs like Shoshone or Songhai

maybe a total of +25% bonus when attacking near a GG, the free heal during war which is really handy if you micromanage your units and the faster siege.

 

[CrazyG]

Alright I'll give him another chance

 

[Gazebo]

He's a very different warmonger from Mongolia or France. Mongolia skirmishes, France focuses fire on units, and Sweden does best when you have a long line of troops pressing in with siege behind. In many cases you can substitute siege units for ranged units (aoe forever).

G

 

[nj666]

Additional +30% bonus from general is already ruining balance. Basically one sweden unit is 30% stronger than same unit of another enemy, so enemy must be at least 1 column ahead in technology to compensate for it. But, ok, MAYBE this mechanic could be kept. Still quite an imbalance, but nothing compared to next one.
The problem is INSTA-HEAL for all units when general borns. This completely turns tides and in most cases war is won immediately.
Wars in CIV5 are long and slow, with units taking damage, then moving back to heal while being covered by fresh units. It's a war of endurance - which army could endure more damage, balance fresh units with injured, supply reinforcements and so on. It's typically very difficult to kill one fresh unit in one turn. And players can adapt to each other, i.e. if there's too many injured units in army - they can slowly fall back, or if they see enemy has many injured units they can play more aggressively.
Now, imagine you are at war with Sweden for some time, about 70% of units are injured at both sides, about 40% injured to 10-20HP and are standing back to heal.
Suddenly, Sweden general borns. Its army immediately gets 100% HP and in the same turn Sweden player attacks you with fresh units and rapes your sorry ass. So some of your units are killed at once (because you fortified them near injured Swedish units which suddenly became fully healed), and then all you can do is full retreat and left whatever cities or anything you were protecting to be REKD (cities annexed/puppeted/razed, terraforming destroyed, territory taken). After this Sweden just snowballs you with its fresh army and beats you to a pulp ( and while beating you it will get new generals and insta-heal again and again and again...).
Even if you go full defensive ( castles, forts/citadels, tons of archers on hills etc ) it won't help because all Sweden has to do is get enough XP to suddenly acquire a general, and then it will smash you with fresh units, nothing but full retreat will help you save your army.
And, the worst thing - player can't even predict when enemy army will be insta-healed because he has no way to track General points in another player. So it's just some russian roulette for him.
So, how to beat Sweden?
1) Have 2-3 times more units in army
2) Be 2-3 columns ahead in tech tree
Both are typically unachievable in multiplayer.
Sweden can also play defensively and then it needs less units as compared to other civs, thanks to general bonuses. So it can invest more in economy and infrastructure.

So where's balance?
Even the famous 'anti-snowballing' 'anti-warmonger' mechanics do zero help here, because Sweden won't even need to build new units - the constantly spawning generals will renew existing army and let it continue infinetely.

Proposal: remove insta-heal ability from generals. KTHX.

 

[Owlbebach]

What difficulty do you play? I do not find Sweden OP at all, cause those percent bonuses are additive. This is not 30%, it is no more than 15%, like a free promotion

 

[nj666]

We play multiplayer on King or Emperor, but difficulty is irrelevant as its PvP.
Last time I checked it was +30% Near Great General AND +15% Great General in same tile ( so 30% more than other civ can achieve).

That's how Tercio vs Tercio looks like when fighting against Sweden:
http://dump.*****eese.net/files/xocusem/fghdfgfdg.png
Even if we drop Empire Unhappy, Flanking and Fortification strength will still differ by 2-3 times.

Anyway, not even close to be as overpowered as insta-healing.

 

[nj666]

Also overpoweredness of Sweden scales with armies size. If it's 3 units vs 3 units - it will not look as bad. But if it's 30 vs 30 - insta-heal means Sweden will acquire about 1500 FREE HP INSTANTLY FOR FREE... and unpredictable for other player.
And more units = more XP = more frequent generals = more frequent heals...

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Some civs are ok when playing against the AI, and I think Sweden is ok for single-player. But I can see how it would be problematic in a multi-player setting. Still, I think it's hard to balance for the multiplayer to the same degree as single-player, so my suggestion is to exclude Sweden from being picked by a human player when playing multi-player.