Synagogue Shooting in Pittsburgh

[HoloDoc]

That's funny. I haven't seen that from, well, anyone, but what I have seen quite a lot of is this:

"And a word to my fellow American Jews: This president makes this possible. Here. Where you live. I hope the embassy move over there, where you don’t live was worth it." - Julia Ioffe, Atlantic journalist

"Absolutely appalling and a criminal act, but does it ever occur to Bibi and the present Israeli government that it’s actions against Palestinians may be re-igniting anti Semitism?" - Jenny Tonge, former British MP

“When Trump said on Saturday that the attack in Pittsburgh might not have been as bloody if the synagogue had hired armed guards, he was essentially blaming the Jewish victims for their own death … Trump’s insensitive assertion proved to anyone who still harbored doubt that he is eminently unqualified to reassure liberal Jews in their hour of darkness.” - Chemi Shalev, Haaretz journalist

“Trump let the disgusting genie out of the bottle, he gave neo-Nazis security to march in the streets and run over a woman in Charlottesville, he gave white supremacists freedom to beat blacks in the street, he freed anti-Semitism in America and he has no intention of changing his ways, both because he can’t and because he views himself as the victim here,” - Tzipi Smilovitz, Yedioth journalist

You people have the nerve to criticize the right for politicizing tragedy?



First claim is true, second claim is false. Did you, like, not live through the past decade?



I'm the one with skin in the game here.

All four of those quotes are true. Like, demonstrably so. To the point where it isn't even really an argument.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I take it you support the internationalism theory? Do Jewish people even have any more international contacts than any other immigrant group? And surely this internationalism cannot account for things such as high educational attainment or Nobel price winners?

Just how high is the Nobel price?

 

[HoloDoc]

Just how high is the Nobel price?

Ask this guy.

 

[Mouthwash]

Thus calling the question:

Since it is your skin that "has to" be secured by genocide, why is it that you think the rest of us should not be appalled at said genocide? You aren't family, and you aren't endearing. Why in the world should we trade any number of Palestinians for you?

I'd like you to show me this post of mine where I advocate genocide. Otherwise I assume it means "thinking Israel should exist".

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'd like you to show me this post of mine where I advocate genocide.

How about if we just look for posts where you support the genocidal government of Israel?

 

[Hrothbern]

I take it you support the internationalism theory? Do Jewish people even have any more international contacts than any other immigrant group? And surely this internationalism cannot account for things such as high educational attainment or Nobel price winners?

I ended my post you refer to with:

For me the real bottom line is family trust and family loyalty of a few rich Jewish families, being strong enough to handle big amounts of money long distance. That family trust and loyalty greatly strenghtened by a separate religion under surpression, forging strong ingroup morals.

Jews are not the only group with that strong trust-loyalty-family-extended family network, that functions close by and long distance and is in less need of formal tools.
The Italian Mafia, without the violence, has a similar trust-loyalty strenght not hindered by borders. And do note that in Italy the mafia was the peoples system against surpression by nobility/state.
Bootstoots mentioned Chinese immigrants. Same similarity. These three have all their own habitat in society. Romany gypsies could be added with again another habitat.

The difference with Jews is that Jews have a much bigger geographical network, have some families with lots of money, have climbed up into the elites all over the world since centuries, have a religious tradition that is much more demanding, in being separating, in intellectual reasoning and schooling tradition.
That's a lot of positives in your backpack.

And surely this internationalism cannot account for things such as high educational attainment or Nobel price winners?

Most people that got really high up in society, business, in achievements, were/are very dedicated, focused and mostly also ruthless with their time priorities. No 8 hour working day. Not that much time for children, etc, etc.
A nerd schoolfriend of me was very gifted, scored max grades at secondary (10's at a scale of 1-10), studied at the same time math and chemistry, one for cum laude, got already at secondary school two national prizes (one given every year and one only by exception). But his hobbies, and playing games together with friends, were always more important to him than a "Nobel Prize". So he did some nice professor job until 50 years old and had saved up enough money for early retirement, to have lots of time for his hobbies.
Did he achieve much in the sense of high ranking positions or some scientific breakthrough ? No.
Was he valuable for the people around him, in his job and in private ? Yes.
It all depends on the kind of measure stick.

For the societal measure stick you mention, you do need most of all lots of dedication in amount of time and focus (and directed at achievements)
I think that the Jewish backpack contains also on average more of these drivers as most other people.

 

[Mouthwash]

How about if we just look for posts where you support the genocidal government of Israel?

Being associated with an *imaginary* genocide isn't objectionable to most people. I've killed plenty of kids in CKII; that doesn't make me a murderer.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Being associated with an *imaginary* genocide isn't objectionable to most people. I've killed plenty of kids in CKII; that doesn't make me a murderer.

Unfortunately, the government you support looks at real live Palestinians in much the same way you look at kids in CKII. To the rest of us that dehumanization doesn't come quite so easily, so when you slaughter them we have to wonder if allowing your rogue state to run unchecked is a good idea. It has certainly paid dividends in oil and kept the blood from being directly on USian hands so there are those who consider it "worth it," but I'm not among them.

 

[Broken_Erika]

That's what happens when the ruling coalition includes hardline pro-settler parties who's support is needed for the government to function....

 

[Berzerker]

Totally agree. I've said before that I wish the US had accepted all Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, and all the surviving refugees from Europe post-WWII. If there were no state of Israel (just a Jewish minority in Palestine) and the US had gotten the benefit of being the home of most of the world's Jews rather than just ~40% of them, we would be better off and the Middle East would be less chaotic.

Mouthwash wasn't a fan of that idea though.

I didn't even consider the ramifications for the ME... I'm just surprised someone hasn't accused me of being a racist yet

 

[HoloDoc]

I didn't even consider the ramifications for the ME... I'm just surprised someone hasn't accused me of being a racist yet

Not considering the ramifications of those changes in the ME is a sign of how racist you are...

 

[rah]

Now that is a stretch.

 

[Traitorfish]

You people have the nerve to criticize the right for politicizing tragedy?

It's hard to imagine a single tragedy that is not political, at some level. It's not my experience that this is a controversial perspective on the left.

 

[Berzerker]

Not considering the ramifications of those changes in the ME is a sign of how racist you are...

Why? Boots and I were talking about letting Jews move here, he added another benefit - less strife in the ME. He's right about that too.

 

[HoloDoc]

Why? Boots and I were talking about letting Jews move here, he added another benefit - less strife in the ME. He's right about that too.

Why are you taking my post seriously? I put ... And everything! Couldn't be more obvious without a smiley.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's hard to imagine a single tragedy that is not political, at some level. It's not my experience that this is a controversial perspective on the left.

Plane crash due to pilot error or mechanical failure? Natural disasters?

 

[Traitorfish]

Plane crash due to pilot error or mechanical failure? Natural disasters?

Overworked pilots. Loose regulations. Lack of institutional disaster-preparedness.

There are few tragedies which are sufficiently explained by a single-phrase description. There is almost inevitably something more going on, when tracing how causes become outcomes, and that something is very rarely going to be totally apolitical. There are very few genuine freak accidents.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Overworked pilots. Loose regulations. Lack of institutional disaster-preparedness.

There are few tragedies which are sufficiently explained by a single-phrase description. There is almost inevitably something more going on, when tracing how causes become outcomes, and that something is very rarely going to be totally apolitical. There are very few genuine freak accidents.

Yeah, I thought about that. But I did serve as an operator on a very complex machine that was as regulated as any machine could get. Admittedly, we were overworked and that accounted for many things that went wrong, but sometimes, no matter how much regulation is applied, in a complex machine stuff happens. There might be a bumper sticker worth of wisdom in that, now that I look at it...

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, I thought about that. But I did serve as an operator on a very complex machine that was as regulated as any machine could get. Admittedly, we were overworked and that accounted for many things that went wrong, but sometimes, no matter how much regulation is applied, in a complex machine stuff happens. There might be a bumper sticker worth of wisdom in that, now that I look at it...

Stuff doesn't just happen, though. There's always a context, at however high a level of abstraction. There are no ten-car pileups unless the state constructs multi-lane, high-speed roads. There has always been some sort of collective or institutional choice to live in a world where any given tragedy is possible.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Stuff doesn't just happen, though. There's always a context, at however high a level of abstraction. There are no ten-car pileups unless the state constructs multi-lane, high-speed roads. There has always been some sort of collective or institutional choice to live in a world where any given tragedy is possible.

Well, yeah. I mean, at the end of the day my particular piece of complex machinery was, in fact, a warship, so at some level of context everything that happened on it was by definition political. I'll concede the point, rather than risk having a tire blow out and rolling my truck just so I can claim to be right.