Syria again - your solutions?

[Neomega]

So, does the CIA have thousands of extra secret employees we don't know about or is the "infiltration" a voluntary, "patriotic", spontaneous act by NGO workers? Flesh it out for me, will ya?

The CIA would not need to have people actually working in the NGO, just liasons.

And I do not understand this "thousands of extra secret employees we don't know about?" bit. "We" who? What do you know about the CIA? What CNN and Anderson "I was in the CIA for six months" Cooper tells you?

Here is a Frontline documentary about the massive size and scope of our American intelligence apparatus after 9/11. It is so big and so secret nobody in congress even knows the full size and scope of it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/

 

[Neomega]

Needless to say (...and I may be wrong about that), video evidence is stronger than hearsay. If a video scene was posed, it would be detectable; inconsistancies would stand out - like on flying-saucer videos.

Or, you can just take your dead fighters, lay them in a pile, and claim they were executed and tortured in the dead of night.

Or you can massacre civilians like Christians and Allawites and other traitors to the cause, line their bodies up, take video evidence, and claim Assad did it.

You know, kind of like the huge South Korean/American lie:
the Bodo League Massacre They did just that with hundreds of thousands of dead Koreans. killed 'em all, blamed it on the communists, and for 50 years, that big lie was the truth in the minds of the world, UN included.

 

[red_elk]

Or, you can just take your dead fighters, lay them in a pile, and claim they were executed and tortured in the dead of night.

Or you can massacre civilians like Christians and Allawites and other traitors to the cause, line their bodies up, take video evidence, and claim Assad did it.

You know, kind of like the huge South Korean/American lie:
the Bodo League Massacre They did just that with hundreds of thousands of dead Koreans. killed 'em all, blamed it on the communists, and for 50 years, that big lie was the truth in the minds of the world, UN included.

Just take old pictures from Iraq or Libya and reuse them.

 

[Glassfan]

The videos we're seeing from European and American media look authentic to me. Civilians, including children lying about in their death pose, with signs of violence and bloodshed all around. We've seen this kind of thing repeatedly. That Western media is being kept out by the Regime, while the rebels welcome them without any limitations on access, tells a lot.

Neomega, you obviously have issues with the CIA and the "ignorant and gullible" American people, but the massacres and brutality of the Assad forces are manifest.

You could fake things for awhile, but the truth gets out. And the Assad government is increasingly looking like the liers.

 

[Glassfan]

Syrian troops intensified their shelling of rebel-held neighbourhoods in central Homs on Sunday, activists said.

They have warned that humanitarian conditions are growing increasingly dire, and are pressing the UN to assist in the evacuation of 1,000 families and dozens of wounded people who are unable to get adequate medical care.

Homs has been under siege for a week, part of an escalation of violence around Syria that forced the 300-strong UN observer mission in the country to suspend its activities. "The humanitarian situation in Homs is very difficult," said Rami Abdul-Rahman, head of the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR). "It is very clear that the army wants to retake Homs." - from The Guardian.

The Syrian Army is shelling the city. They're killing civilians, innocent along with Rebels, indescriminantly.

 

[Neomega]

The videos we're seeing from European and American media look authentic to me. Civilians, including children lying about in their death pose, with signs of violence and bloodshed all around. We've seen this kind of thing repeatedly. That Western media is being kept out by the Regime, while the rebels welcome them without any limitations on access, tells a lot.

Neomega, you obviously have issues with the CIA and the "ignorant and gullible" American people, but the massacres and brutality of the Assad forces are manifest.

You could fake things for awhile, but the truth gets out. And the Assad government is increasingly looking like the liers.

You aren't getting it. Just because you see authentic pictures of dead bodies, does not mean you know who created those dead bodies or how they were created.

Syrian troops intensified their shelling of rebel-held neighbourhoods in central Homs on Sunday, activists said.

The entire narrative sold to the American people during this war has come from "activists".

Homs has been under siege for a week, part of an escalation of violence around Syria that forced the 300-strong UN observer mission in the country to suspend its activities. "The humanitarian situation in Homs is very difficult," said Rami Abdul-Rahman, head of the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR). "It is very clear that the army wants to retake Homs." - from The Guardian.

The Syrian Army is shelling the city. They're killing civilians, innocent along with Rebels, indescriminantly.

there you go again. The "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights"
Did you check who this source was, before taking what they said at face value? Sounds official, huh? Must be true!

Here, do some research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Observatory_for_Human_Rights

Trustworthy sources, glassfan?

 

[Neomega]

Just take old pictures from Iraq or Libya and reuse them.

I think many people may have missed the meaning of this tongue in cheek comment, since CNN MSNBC and FOX didn't report this little gem:

http://www.rt.com/news/bbc-iraq-syria-houla-400/

With the shock of the Houla tragedy ringing across the world, the BBC has released a story with a harrowing picture of rows and rows of children's bodies awaiting burial… But isn’t that post-Saddam Iraq?

Photographer Marco di Lauro who took the shot grabbed by the BBC says he nearly “fell off his chair” after finding the picture on the network’s website with a caption reading: “Photo from Activist. This image – which cannot be independently verified – is believed to show bodies of children in Houla awaiting funeral.”

Also note, the BBC claimed this photo was from one of those "activists" that are QFT'd so often by Western media, when indeed, it was stock from their own collection. So from now on, know that when BBC says "Activist", you don't know if they mean Syrian protester, or MI6 agent, or just something they made up, as it was in this case.

 

[innonimatu]

Who is this "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights"? Why should I take their word that what is happening there has been caused by the syrian army, rather than the rebels? It takes (at least) two armed sides for making a war...

Edit: Neomega was on it already,

Civil wars are bad, sure enough. But worse than those are the imperial wars built up on lies, that have been used to destroy country after country in these past decade.

I've said it before, looks like I must keep saying it: the power of imperial countries (i.e., those capable of going around bombing, invading or outright occupying others) grows with instability in other territories within their reach, because that instability allows the empires to play kingmakers. That is why "the west" has been such a staunch promoter of "humanitarian wars" and encourager of "self-determination" (aka secessionist movements) around the world. Just in and around Europe we've had the encouragement to the breakup of Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, Syria. Oh, and Georgia, though that one backfired.

And what has come out of this: Kosovo remains a NATO ("EU" ) protectorate; Bosnia is another protectorate (who exactly does the governor there - "High Representative" in the newspeak - represents?); Iraq remains divided and has a government currently complaining that the saudis and qataris are out to topple it, Libya is still in civil war and postponing promised elections, though from western news you wouldn't know it; Georgia is more divided than it was with the main portion retaining its loser US-backed dictator and the two tiny self-declared republics on the north retaining their russian-backed ones; and Syria is next on the list of countries to throw into permanent instability. Poor syrians, the actual target was Iran, but that proved too tough a nut to crack - yet. So Syria is to serve as a showroom of what can be done to uppity countries, same as Iraq back in 1992. Too bad there is no trad to extend to Syria, getting it to invade some neighbor... so whomever is orchestrating this latest round is stuck with arming local terrorists, causing a civil war, and building the "humanitarian" casus belli... how very humanitarian indeed!

 

[red_elk]

I think many people may have missed the meaning of this tongue in cheek comment, since CNN MSNBC and FOX didn't report this little gem:

http://www.rt.com/news/bbc-iraq-syria-houla-400/

With the shock of the Houla tragedy ringing across the world, the BBC has released a story with a harrowing picture of rows and rows of children's bodies awaiting burial… But isn’t that post-Saddam Iraq?

Photographer Marco di Lauro who took the shot grabbed by the BBC says he nearly “fell off his chair” after finding the picture on the network’s website with a caption reading: “Photo from Activist. This image – which cannot be independently verified – is believed to show bodies of children in Houla awaiting funeral.”

Also note, the BBC claimed this photo was from one of those "activists" that are QFT'd so often by Western media, when indeed, it was stock from their own collection. So from now on, know that when BBC says "Activist", you don't know if they mean Syrian protester, or MI6 agent, or just something they made up, as it was in this case.

Yes, I was referring to this story with BBC.
I don't trust mass-media reports from any side of that conflict, Western channels are in this case not a single bit more trustworthy than Chinese or Russian.

 

[Glassfan]

You aren't getting it. Just because you see authentic pictures of dead bodies, does not mean you know who created those dead bodies or how they were created...

I do get it; just because I see a black man in the White House, and they say he's the President, and the newsmedia report he won the election, and they affirm he really was born in Hawaii, and television, radio, newspapers and the Internet universally acknowledge him to be the Chief Executive - that doesn't mean it's true. I do get it. Really.

I won't debate perceptions of reality with you, that's obviously not a worthwhile pursuit.

For me, the evidence is compelling, and only becoming more so.

 

[innonimatu]

I won't debate perceptions of reality with you, that's obviously not a worthwhile pursuit.

For me, the evidence is compelling, and only becoming more so.

"lalala I don't want to hear anything that questions my opinion"

Hey, what about the evidence of massacres on Libya? Last I heard the envoy of that joke called the "International Criminal Court", you know, the one that dropped indictments against libyan officials just in time to support the humanitarian bombing, is being held hostage there by some militia or other... they may not be grateful, but at least they're smart enough to know on whom not to trust!

As for evidence about all the claimed massacres in Libya, or proper investigations and prosecutions... none that I can find. And should we go back to the media stories of Iraqi soldiers throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwait, told by a poor nurse who fled... oh, wait it was not a nurse after all, it was an ambassador's daughter providing excuses for the war then. Or to the massacres in Kosovo, I recall a video of civilians executed by the serbian army, made its way to the US discussions for authorizing the war... the same UN whose investigators admitted two years later that the "civilians" were probably corpses of terrorists of the UCK paramilitary killed in combat and dressed up to produce the video. Shall we discuss all the known cases of "humanitarian" wars built on lies? No, that wouldn't change your mind...

But I'll give you one thing: I'm sure that the syrian army is killing civilians in the war going on there. I just don't believe they're doing that on purpose. Nor, indeed, that the war is one of their choice. They're reacting against armed groups who started the war. Why hasn't our media bothered to explain where those groups and their weapons came from, or to discuss the civilians those groups killed?

 

[Neomega]

I do get it; just because I see a black man in the White House, and they say he's the President, and the newsmedia report he won the election, and they affirm he really was born in Hawaii, and television, radio, newspapers and the Internet universally acknowledge him to be the Chief Executive - that doesn't mean it's true. I do get it. Really.

I won't debate perceptions of reality with you, that's obviously not a worthwhile pursuit.

For me, the evidence is compelling, and only becoming more so.

I don't think this kind of snarky response belongs in the chamber.

Instead of addressing where I pointed out the flaws in your sources, be they unknown "activists" or the S.O.H.R. which you quoted as reliable authority, because you failed to research them before taking what they said as truth, instead, you turn to some kind of anti-birther rhetoric. As if 1) I am a birther (I am not) or 2) what I am discussing is conspiracy theory, (it is not). I simply asked you in many ways how you know the sources you are basing your opinions on are trustworthy, and this is the immature response I get.

You are right, it's not a worthwhile pursuit for you, because all you have is a shallow CNN-level understanding of the Syrian conflict, and of geo-politics in general. You are tangling with someone who lives and breathes geo-politics, and is a history major from a major university.

I'm sorry, but I simply do not take cable news network reporting at face value.
This is the hilarious crap that CNN was pulling in 1991:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWY14eyMFg

I noticed you said you watch CNN. That is your first problem, it is not I that has the perception problem.

 

[innonimatu]

Syrian troops intensified their shelling of rebel-held neighbourhoods in central Homs on Sunday, activists said.

They have warned that humanitarian conditions are growing increasingly dire, and are pressing the UN to assist in the evacuation of 1,000 families and dozens of wounded people who are unable to get adequate medical care.

Homs has been under siege for a week, part of an escalation of violence around Syria that forced the 300-strong UN observer mission in the country to suspend its activities. "The humanitarian situation in Homs is very difficult," said Rami Abdul-Rahman, head of the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR). "It is very clear that the army wants to retake Homs." - from The Guardian.

The Syrian Army is shelling the city. They're killing civilians, innocent along with Rebels, indescriminantly.

Oh, and about Homs:

ASIA/SYRIA - Appeal of the civilians in peril of their life in Homs: "Let us go!"

Homs (Agenzia Fides) - "Let us go, in God's name!" Is a desperate appeal by Christian families and Sunni Muslims trapped in the old town of Homs. We are talking about 800 civilians, including women, elderly, youth, children, disabled people who today – refers one source of Fides engaged in negotiation attempts - "are in real danger. They have nothing, they live in panic, they are in the midst of bombing and fighting. "The families blocked in the city, said the source of Fides, launch an appeal "for humanitarian reasons", asking the help of the UN, Red Cross, Red Crescent, so that their lives can be saved.
The families are located in areas of Warsheh, Salibi, Bustan Diwan, Ozon, Hamidiyeh, Wadi Sayeh, all in the heart of Homs. Currently, the Syrian army would be available for a cease-fire to release the civilians, but a faction of rebels holed up in the city, headed by leading Abu Maan, refuses to consent. The militia, in fact, fear that, once the civilians are outside, the Syrian army can strengthen its offensive towards the city center. The situation is still stalled, but the condition of families worsens by the hour. The approximately 400 Christians are the last remaining of the more than 80 thousand who lived in Homs before the conflict. (PA) (Agenzia Fides 15/6/2012)

The rebels are taking civilians hostage, using them as human shields. I suspect that the syrian government would be just too happy to surround the area and wait out the rebels, except that the conflict is being used to drum up support for a war against syria, forcing the syrian government to try to finish off the rebels asap.
But hey, there's another explanation for this report, so un-BBC like: the Vatican is in cahoots with Al Assad!

I'm sure that the good US army, for example, would never do such a thing as attacking a whole city just because rebels are holed up there. Especially if they had, unlike the syrians, all the time they wanted solve the situation, Oh, no. Can't think of a single example of that...

 

[Tee Kay]

One does not simply walk into Syria.

 

[classical_hero]

I just love threads with so much speculation in them.

Everyone know that the media is very important in wars and the rebels know that they can win the media war, and this is where the Syrian regime is failing to understand that it should be allowing journalists in so they can tell their side of the story. All we are getting right now is one side of the story and it is very biased.

 

[Winner]

The videos we're seeing from European and American media look authentic to me. Civilians, including children lying about in their death pose, with signs of violence and bloodshed all around. We've seen this kind of thing repeatedly. That Western media is being kept out by the Regime, while the rebels welcome them without any limitations on access, tells a lot.

A few things - note please that the media always say things like "these images can't be verified". This means that the media have no idea who made the videos, when, where, under what circumstances, and cannot thus vouch for their reliability. But hey, there's explosions, shooting, Allahu Akbar shouting, dead bodies, all the good stuff, so we're going to show them to you anyway!

Seeing how media in general operate (write a story first, fit the reality into the framework of the story later), I wouldn't let them in either if I were Assad.

 

[Winner]

One does not simply walk into Syria.

Also, you win or you die.

Assad understands the point well.

 

[kramerfan86]

Listen at the end of the day some of the dead and violence we see are called by non-Assad sources, however that doesnt change the fact that at the end of the day some of the dead and violence are in fact caused by Assad. The fact that all sides are butchering though is just evidence that other nations really need to just stay out of it because there is really no course of action that would prevent mass violence.

 

[r16]

there is no way Damascus can win a media campaign , and that's why they feel no need talking .

 

[del62]

the fact is before the arab spring Damascus was winning the media campaign, we had loads of stuff in the media about how wonderful Syria was

I remember a series on the BBC about school kids in Syria, it basically amounted to Baathist propoganda

For an example of the media getting it hopelessly wrong you just have to look a Pallywood's production of Jeningrad