The Abortion and Vaccination Thread

[Senethro]

What is quoted has no substantive basis. "You're wrong" without supportive reasoning is not conducive to discussion, and if anybody is being dismissive, it's not me. Significant proportions of what I have posted have been flat out ignored.

In more than one thread I've linked direct source data (in addition to making more falsifiable claims beyond those) against some of the assertions you've made, including recently. You have never answered for a single one of these, so claiming someone else is being "dismissive" is strange.

If you're going to call me out on reality, great. Let's deal in reality. Want so show that I'm mistaken about something? Use some data from said reality that refutes assertions I've made. I make mistakes. I won't be right about everything. But I also won't make provably false claims like "misandry doesn't exist" and then refuse to answer evidence to the contrary when such is proven, which is egregiously dismissive.



Men and women both lie about birth control and I have already called that out as extremely unethical in both cases.

Being dismissive is 90% of what you post and you don't hold yourself to your own high standards.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Being dismissive is 90% of what you post and you don't hold yourself to your own high standards.

Given the nature of what I'm quoting, the irony is comical.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm still confused as to what responsibilities for the pregnancy has to do with the rest of the discussion

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm still confused as to what responsibilities for the pregnancy has to do with the rest of the discussion

It's tangentially related. In general, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on pushing responsibility off of people who actually are making choices. That isn't okay in a general sense, but when it comes to a legal sense (including principle question of OP) it starts to really matter.

Shoveling responsibility into inane places and away from decision-makers has a way of gaining support for ruinous/incoherent policy, so when posts started playing pretend about where responsibility lies they're worth refuting from a debate standpoint.

As you mentioned earlier, it has implications on who bears the burden of choices made. I argue that this burden should be on the people who actually made the choices, and not just some of them arbitrarily.

 

[Lexicus]

As you mentioned earlier, it has implications on who bears the burden of choices made. I argue that this burden should be on the people who actually made the choices, and not just some of them arbitrarily.

In principle I don't disagree, but I'm guessing that in practice the measures you'd suggest to equalize this burden would in fact place the burden entirely on the woman.

 

[Farm Boy]

Women have a say, of course, but it is also true that what is normalized in our culture is that men are free to obtain consent through pressure, manipulation, intoxication, lies, and even threats and that's generally considered fine. The line of where those activities become unacceptable are only at the very extreme end of the spectrum.

You need better company/shows/culture. That's not ok, it's never been ok, and guys who do that sort of thing are better not in your life. Our difference is that I call them shitheads, and you call them men. My descriptor is more accurate and more useful. I suppose "libertine" is a more specific criticism of the flawed culture, perhaps.

At least that would be my take on it. I'm sure there's some retort to be had about how a lot of men are shitheads or whatever, but that really doesn't change the assertion.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Luckily for TMET, Manfred had already made the most stupid post in the thread. He is saved this time.




Wow, mega cringe, even in replay!

To be frank it would be pretty impressive to be able to pull that off, as it were.

 

[El_Machinae]

How would you equalize the burden? You cannot equalize the physical burden. The financial burden will be borne regardless, so it seems to be a discussion as to whether the taxpayer or the unwilling parent take up the slack.

 

[Farm Boy]

You could suggest that anyone bothered by having to bear a burden of fertile womanhood get permanently sterilized. I get the feeling that'd appropriately go over like a lead balloon.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You could suggest that anyone bothered by having to bear a burden of fertile womanhood get permanently sterilized. I get the feeling that'd appropriately go over like a lead balloon.

This is an elective procedure available to both men and women, though IIRC surgical sterilization is safer for men. As a matter of general policy yeah lead balloon sounds about right.

Though like abstinence it IS an option. It's nearly as effective, too. At least in terms of preventing unwanted pregnancy. Won't prevent certain other unwanted things.

 

[Farm Boy]

It is. There is less cutting necessary. Just to be clear, I'm not mad at Tim for suggesting that the needfulness of my paying attention to fertility cycles is appropriately remedied by having myself carefully mutilated. I just may do, it gets more likely every year. And most importantly, it was a suggestion offered in good faith. But I really don't understand WTH we're on about here. Suggesting women sterilize themselves because they have to worry about getting pregnant may be offered in good faith, but I think I'd get called out if I actually meant it and rightly so. And now we're back to El Mac's apparent frustration. Why is everyone having a big pissing contest and studiously ignoring the fact that they're all simultaneously shitting their pants?

 

[El_Machinae]

You could suggest that anyone bothered by having to bear a burden of fertile womanhood get permanently sterilized. I get the feeling that'd appropriately go over like a lead balloon.

I 99% agree, except that I believe in taxation and charity when it comes to children as well. So, I intend to bear a burden, even though I am abstinent myself.

But anyone suggesting that a sexual partner should have less of a burden is suggesting that someone else has a greater burden.

This seems to me to be very unimportant with regards to the abortion question, since the physical burden is born by the woman regardless. To me, the financial burden is completely dwarfed by the physical burden, so the conversation about parsing the financial burden seems secondary

 

[Farm Boy]

And as always, physical burden becomes troublesome when we start considering if there is another physically viable life in play and we aren't in a dire enough situation to be able to cleave the issue down to one as simple as one death prevents two in the calculus of loss.

And we're urged to have empathy and respect for those who bear more or bear differently, and of course this is true and right. But it's the very nature of empathy for others that makes the whole preceding paragraph an issue in the first place.

 

[metalhead]

You need better company/shows/culture. That's not ok, it's never been ok, and guys who do that sort of thing are better not in your life. Our difference is that I call them ****heads, and you call them men. My descriptor is more accurate and more useful. I suppose "libertine" is a more specific criticism of the flawed culture, perhaps.

At least that would be my take on it. I'm sure there's some retort to be had about how a lot of men are ****heads or whatever, but that really doesn't change the assertion.

Oh come off your high horse already. What I choose to tolerate in my circle of friends is not reflective of the broader culture. Which I learn about by reading about it.

When I realized that most women walk around having to think about the possibility a man is going to assault them most of the time, and take active measures to lessen the risk and/or protect themselves in case it happens, I also realized how ridiculous the "not all men" argument. We're all responsible for this world; silly posturing about how "they're not a man they're a craphead! Yeah!" is, well, silly.

Maybe you were never an immature craphead. Congrats to you fine sir! We can only hope your eminence radiates over the rest of humanity.

 

[Farm Boy]

If I'm on a high horse, you get yourself out of the effing mud. You're talking about half of everybody. To people who agree with you by and large. I'm fine with people carrying firearms in public for heaven's sake if that's what makes them feel safer, and I have no issue with women's groups if that makes them feel more secure. It often can, and it is reasonable. Yes, I am going to put the fault of crapheads firmly in the realm of crapheads and not on testicles. Yes it is our responsiblity to help. All stipulated, constantly, over and over again. Go tip your effing fedora to a mirror. Fine Sir.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

Oh come off your high horse already. What I choose to tolerate in my circle of friends is not reflective of the broader culture. Which I learn about by reading about it.

So all this stuff you claim to know about men, how they pressure, manipulate, intoxicate, and threat for consent - you learned about through... reading? But yet in your own life, men in your friend circles don't behave like this?

I also realized how ridiculous the "not all men" argument. We're all responsible for this world; silly posturing about how "they're not a man they're a craphead! Yeah!" is, well, silly.

So you admitted it was true above, at least for you and your friends, but then called it silly because "we're all responsible for this world"? I don't follow this line of thought.

If someone was generalizing and stereotyping women based on what they "read about", would it be 'silly' to point out that not all women are like that? If someone was making derogatory statements about Muslims, would it be 'silly' to point out that that the Muslims they read about in the news and saw on their favorite TV show are not representative of the community at large? I don't see why they should have to shut up because "we're all responsible for this world"?

 

[Yeekim]

To be frank it would be pretty impressive to be able to pull that off, as it were.

Pulling it off (pun intended) is hardly an impressive feat... I'm afraid you really haven't been giving this much thought.

 

[Lexicus]

But yet in your own life, men in your friend circles don't behave like this?

Men do behave like this in my life. I've behaved like this in my life. That is why I don't take seriously the people who try to divide the world into "men" and "crapheads" (ahem. talk about "post-forgiveness" and "good is what you do"...)

 

[MaryKB]

Every man says "not all men", and every man thinks others are the problem and not him, and that's why things are still so bad.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yes, some people are liars. And some are always going to be deadset everyone else is the problem. A good many of these people are men.